Monthly News – July 2021

[clem]

https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4116

[blueicetwice]

Monsieur Clem, very nice write-up indeed I for one am more concerned about stability
and functionality, than creating art-deco web pages, just as long as they do not resemble Soviet
style master pieces.

"When our current website was revealed it looked amazing. It did, people loved it, but that was in 2008. This was 13 years ago. The first thing people say when they see it nowadays is that it looks old and outdated."

I believe this analogy also applies to human beings.

[revmacian]

People really need to stop relying on looks and judging a book by its cover. I can take a pile of bovine manure and wrap it in the most beautiful wrapping paper and bow in the world - it would be an amazing and attractive gift on the outside.. but you wouldn't want what is inside. We need to stop pandering to people who can't see the forest for the trees. If the website works as intended then maybe we should leave it as is and not complicate a working environment unnecessarily. If people don't like it, then they can go elsewhere - they'll come back when they've grown up and can see that function is more important than outward appearance.

[Mick-Cork]

If the website works as intended then maybe we should leave it as is and not complicate a working environment unnecessarily.

Let's challenge this thought a bit; how would you describe the objectives/intentions of the website, who would you think it's primary audience might be, how might they be viewing the site, and how well do you think it achieves those objectives.

I think it's worth fleshing it out if it's worth mentioning in the first place.

[revmacian]

If the website works as intended then maybe we should leave it as is and not complicate a working environment unnecessarily.

Let's challenge this thought a bit; how would you describe the objectives/intentions of the website, who would you think it's primary audience might be, how might they be viewing the site, and how well do you think it achieves those objectives.

I think it's worth fleshing it out if it's worth mentioning in the first place.

Neither the product (a linux distro) nor the website (a showcase for the product) have changed. The only thing that changed is people who get bored with what currently exists and need something renewed because they lack discipline and consistency. It is really sad that some people are constantly wasting resources chasing something flashy and new.. when what they have still works perfectly fine. No offence, but some of us are getting tired of things constantly changing because of unstable people who can't leave well enough alone. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

[Mick-Cork]

Neither the product (a linux distro) nor the website (a showcase for the product) have changed. The only thing that changed is people who get bored with what currently exists and need something renewed because they lack discipline and consistency. It is really sad that some people are constantly wasting resources chasing something flashy and new.. when what they have still works perfectly fine. No offence, but some of us are getting tired of things constantly changing because of unstable people who can't leave well enough alone. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

The website might not have changed but the distro certainly has (constantly), for example Cinnamon didn't exist back in 2008.
Anyway, my question was what should the website objectives be, and are they being met?
I'm not sure that's an unfair question, it seems a reasonable one to me anyway.

[revmacian]

Neither the product (a linux distro) nor the website (a showcase for the product) have changed. The only thing that changed is people who get bored with what currently exists and need something renewed because they lack discipline and consistency. It is really sad that some people are constantly wasting resources chasing something flashy and new.. when what they have still works perfectly fine. No offence, but some of us are getting tired of things constantly changing because of unstable people who can't leave well enough alone. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

The website might not have changed but the distro certainly has (constantly), for example Cinnamon didn't exist back in 2008.
Anyway, my question was what should the website objectives be, and are they being met?
I'm not sure that's an unfair question, it seems a reasonable one to me anyway.

Objectives? It's a website.. it showcases a product.. that is all a product website is for. You can give it all new graphics, marketing text and bells and whistles.. but it won't be able to do any more next year than it did last year. It's just a website.

[Moonstone Man]

Objectives? It's a website.. it showcases a product.. that is all a product website is for. You can give it all new graphics, marketing text and bells and whistles..

Clearly, you have no concept of marketing principles. If the website design is poor, as it is, then it is not a 'showcase for a product', it is a showcase for turning people off, ie if someone doesn't put effort into their website then, by default, the average human being will extend their poor visual impressions to the product itself.

but it won't be able to do any more next year than it did last year. It's just a website.

So, did you consult a psychic medium or an oracle to get that information or did you pull it out of the top of your head?

You're talking nonsense and expect people to stick in the mud with you. The world progresses.

[revmacian]

Objectives? It's a website.. it showcases a product.. that is all a product website is for. You can give it all new graphics, marketing text and bells and whistles..

..the average human being will extend their poor visual impressions to the product itself.

No, I'm sorry, that is not average.. that is actually a type of mental illness. It only seems average because it is so prevalent in society. When you finish medical school, as I did, then you will hopefully understand that. But, I'll stop here, this is entering the realm of opinion.

I feel it is better to devote resources to fixing bugs before anything else is done. Fixing the engine is more important than a new coat of paint.

[Mick-Cork]

Objectives? It's a website.. it showcases a product.. that is all a product website is for. You can give it all new graphics, marketing text and bells and whistles.. but it won't be able to do any more next year than it did last year. It's just a website.

I'm starting with the basics here but:
where on the current homepage does it say what the 'product' is?
how easy is it to read and navigate the current site on mobiles and other small screens?

The opportunity exists to make the site informative to the level that someone who lands on it, who may not even know there is such a thing as a Linux Desktop Operating System, might consider trying/installing it on their machine(s). The current site will never do that.

It's in all our interests (assuming we value LM) to see the distro continually attract new users. New users leads to more donations, leads to more development resources, leads to continual improvement, leads to more new users. A well structured website can take visitors along a path where they might test-drive the distro and then install it, knowing that it has a good history, is well-maintained, popular, and has an active community that provides another layer of support. How does the current site achieve that?

You can't stop still without going backwards.

So, to return to your observation that the site is a showcase, do you think it is an effective showcase as it stands?

[Edit: and what good is an engine if the tank isn't refilled?]

[Moonstone Man]

Objectives? It's a website.. it showcases a product.. that is all a product website is for. You can give it all new graphics, marketing text and bells and whistles..

... this is entering the realm of opinion.

Don't look now but what you wrote up there is mere opinion, as is the rest of what you've written so far, unequivocally so. Furthermore when you post in a forum, you're going to get a lot of opinion. Deal with it.

And as for medical school, well, good for you, though my double degree trumps yours. You may refer to me as Doctor Doctor.

[revmacian]

Objectives? It's a website.. it showcases a product.. that is all a product website is for. You can give it all new graphics, marketing text and bells and whistles.. but it won't be able to do any more next year than it did last year. It's just a website.

I'm starting with the basics here but:
where on the current homepage does it say what the 'product' is?
how easy is it to read and navigate the current site on mobiles and other small screens?

The opportunity exists to make the site informative to the level that someone who lands on it, who may not even know there is such a thing as a Linux Desktop Operating System, might consider trying/installing it on their machine(s). The current site will never do that.

It's in all our interests (assuming we value LM) to see the distro continually attract new users. New users leads to more donations, leads to more development resources, leads to continual improvement, leads to more new users. A well structured website can take visitors along a path where they might test-drive the distro and then install it, knowing that it has a good history, is well-maintained, popular, and has an active community that provides another layer of support. How does the current site achieve that?

You can't stop still without going backwards.

Can you not gain all of that information from the home page and the pages linked therein? Or, are you wanting everything to be on the home page? I must say that the top-stories container (div id="top-stories") reveals quite a bit of information and the About page can provide even more.

So, to return to your observation that the site is a showcase, do you think it is an effective showcase as it stands?

I feel the website is fine the way it is. But, I develop websites and know how to find the information I need. Perhaps what is needed is the point of view from someone who is neither a web developer nor familiar with Linux Mint.

[Mick-Cork]

Objectives? It's a website.. it showcases a product.. that is all a product website is for. You can give it all new graphics, marketing text and bells and whistles.. but it won't be able to do any more next year than it did last year. It's just a website.

I'm starting with the basics here but:
where on the current homepage does it say what the 'product' is?
how easy is it to read and navigate the current site on mobiles and other small screens?

The opportunity exists to make the site informative to the level that someone who lands on it, who may not even know there is such a thing as a Linux Desktop Operating System, might consider trying/installing it on their machine(s). The current site will never do that.

It's in all our interests (assuming we value LM) to see the distro continually attract new users. New users leads to more donations, leads to more development resources, leads to continual improvement, leads to more new users. A well structured website can take visitors along a path where they might test-drive the distro and then install it, knowing that it has a good history, is well-maintained, popular, and has an active community that provides another layer of support. How does the current site achieve that?

You can't stop still without going backwards.

Can you not gain all of that information from the home page and the pages linked therein? Or, are you wanting everything to be on the home page? I must say that the top-stories container (div id="top-stories") reveals quite a bit of information and the About page can provide even more.

So, to return to your observation that the site is a showcase, do you think it is an effective showcase as it stands?

I feel the website is fine the way it is. But, I develop websites and know how to find the information I need. Perhaps what is needed is the point of view from someone who is neither a web developer nor familiar with Linux Mint.

As a web developer you will recognize that the current build is not responsive and that the navigation structure is not logical. You will also know that you have a limited amount of time (seconds) to hold a new visitors attention, and that if you don't they'll move away. You'll know about calls to action, message simplicity, and that the secret is to not make the viewers brain have to work too hard. You will know that it should be obvious what you are offering, and that the best place to do this is on the homepage. You will know that bells and whistles is terminology that can be applied to many things, and it's the developers choice as to whether they include or exclude such things. You will know that it's probably best not to, and that there is no suggestion that the rebuild of the LM website will do.

It's also not that hard to put yourself in the shoes of a visitor who doesn't know anything about Linux operating systems, and map out a website structure that makes the introduction gentle, informative, inviting, reassuring, and hopefully engaging.

Do I sense a slight change of thinking, I'm attempting to point out the benefits to LM (and existing users) of a rebuild that attracts more new users. My view is that the current site is weak at that, and that improving it is a good investment. I haven't heard any logical arguments in any related threads that counter that.

[revmacian]

I'm starting with the basics here but:
where on the current homepage does it say what the 'product' is?
how easy is it to read and navigate the current site on mobiles and other small screens?

The opportunity exists to make the site informative to the level that someone who lands on it, who may not even know there is such a thing as a Linux Desktop Operating System, might consider trying/installing it on their machine(s). The current site will never do that.

It's in all our interests (assuming we value LM) to see the distro continually attract new users. New users leads to more donations, leads to more development resources, leads to continual improvement, leads to more new users. A well structured website can take visitors along a path where they might test-drive the distro and then install it, knowing that it has a good history, is well-maintained, popular, and has an active community that provides another layer of support. How does the current site achieve that?

You can't stop still without going backwards.

Can you not gain all of that information from the home page and the pages linked therein? Or, are you wanting everything to be on the home page? I must say that the top-stories container (div id="top-stories") reveals quite a bit of information and the About page can provide even more.

So, to return to your observation that the site is a showcase, do you think it is an effective showcase as it stands?

I feel the website is fine the way it is. But, I develop websites and know how to find the information I need. Perhaps what is needed is the point of view from someone who is neither a web developer nor familiar with Linux Mint.

As a web developer you will recognize that the current build is not responsive and that the navigation structure is not logical. You will also know that you have a limited amount of time (seconds) to hold a new visitors attention, and that if you don't they'll move away. You'll know about calls to action, message simplicity, and that the secret is to not make the viewers brain have to work too hard. You will know that it should be obvious what you are offering, and that the best place to do this is on the homepage. You will know that bells and whistles is terminology that can be applied to many things, and it's the developers choice as to whether they include or exclude such things. You will know that it's probably best not to, and that there is no suggestion that the rebuild of the LM website will do.

It's also not that hard to put yourself in the shoes of a visitor who doesn't know anything about Linux operating systems, and map out a website structure that makes the introduction gentle, inviting, reassuring, and hopefully engaging.

Do I sense a slight change of thinking, I'm attempting to point out the benefits to LM (and existing users) of a rebuild that attracts more new users. My view is that the current site is weak at that, and that improving it is a good investment. I haven't heard any logical arguments in any related threads that counter that.

True, the website is not responsive. However, as a web developer who is familiar with Mint I would never visit the Linux Mint website on a phone as that website showcases a product that is not meant for a mobile phone (this is a case of product scope). I'll shoulder the blame for this lack of foresight.

Yes, holding the attention of the visitor is vital, which is why I was hoping you weren't wanting all information on the home page - this would create a page which would only hold the attention of those who enjoy reading long white papers.

All the website updates in the world will not drive visitors to said website as that is an exterior function. It is quite difficult for a website to attract visitors on its own. Perhaps more resources should be devoted to SEO and affiliate links?

I'm wondering if the home page would benefit from removing the blog snippits and replace them with the sublinks from the NAV section. Those links aren't readily visible except on mouse-over events and may go unseen.

You'll have to forgive me, I falsely assumed people wanted an entire re-write of the site.. this is quite an undertaking. But, it seems that simply relocating existing items may prove beneficial.

[gugalcrom123]

People really need to stop relying on looks and judging a book by its cover. I can take a pile of bovine manure and wrap it in the most beautiful wrapping paper and bow in the world - it would be an amazing and attractive gift on the outside.. but you wouldn't want what is inside. We need to stop pandering to people who can't see the forest for the trees. If the website works as intended then maybe we should leave it as is and not complicate a working environment unnecessarily. If people don't like it, then they can go elsewhere - they'll come back when they've grown up and can see that function is more important than outward appearance.

Yes, but people will stop thinking the Linux Mint website is outdated and they will try out the OS; after all, it's a very good OS

[DarrenG]

People really need to stop relying on looks and judging a book by its cover.

Yes, a very well known proverb of folk wisdom. Such proverbs often come in contradictory pairs to indicate the complexity of reality, such "if it ain't broke don't fix it" vs "a stitch in time saves nine". I suspect the counter-proverb to "don't judge a book by its cover" is "you never get a second chance to make a first impression."

Leaving folk wisdom proverbs to one side for a moment, a well designed book cover actually conveys a lot of useful information in a very small amount of time.

Take for example the book I am reading at the moment. It is a hardcover, the title is "The ark of the covenant in its Egyptian context- an illustrated journey" and the illustration is a very high quality photo from the Abydos temple of Ramesess II of four priests carrying a kar shrine on poles. There is also the author's name. In a single glance it tells you a great deal about whether this book will interest you or not.

Still undecided? Then look at the back cover. In a few seconds you find out the author's qualifications and background, some quick descriptions of its contents by three professors of prestigious institutions, whose names I all recognise. At the bottom it lists useful information such as it is published by Hendrickson Academic, the ISBN, and a suggestion of where it should go in a library. I would respectfully suggest that you can judge this book by its cover, and you have probably already done so.

I can take a pile of bovine manure and wrap it in the most beautiful wrapping paper and bow in the world

I must bow to your expertise in that matter, as that is a skill I have never felt the need to practise. What a fascinating life you must lead.

[revmacian]

Take for example the book I am reading at the moment. It is a hardcover, the title is "The ark of the covenant in its Egyptian context- an illustrated journey" and the illustration is a very high quality photo from the Abydos temple of Ramesess II of four priests carrying a kar shrine on poles. There is also the author's name. In a single glance it tells you a great deal about whether this book will interest you or not.

Yes, marketing departments excel in making a product seem more valuable than it truly is.. which is why intelligent folks won't judge a book by its cover.