Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

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DasFox
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by DasFox »

DrHu wrote:
DasFox wrote:DrHu it doesn't have to be as complicated as SuSe made it look.
Thanks, but who is going to do all that work, when the simpler method of decision-making allows you (the developers) to make it even easier, by your decisions on what to use or not use..
Like I said, just put what is listed in the Program Menu all those apps for starters. Later if they want they can make a expert section, but at least we have something more to customize with in the beginning.

Why are you so worried about who is going to do the work, Linux developers like doing what they do, or they wouldn't, this is what Linux is all about making something, so let them make something, to make things better. ;)
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by Biker »

MALsPa wrote:
Sounds like a nice idea. I think I'd like a distro like that...

Hey, isn't that kinda like what Debian already does?
One word.. Gentoo :mrgreen:

(Especially if you're feeling VERY adventurous and build it from a Stage 1 tarball!)
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by MALsPa »

DrHu makes some good points, DasFox. Maybe if you spoke directly with a developer, or became one yourself, you might feel differently. Maybe it's not as simple as you think.

Anyway... I'd have to dig around, but I don't recall anyone else complaining that there's too much "bloat" in Mint LXDE CE. Is it just one person who's unhappy with it? Just wondering.
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by DasFox »

DrHu you are making this WAY more complicated then it is, 'understands what value an application has', first of what are you even talking about... Come on this is starting to get way ridiculous here now.

Please listen and quit blowing things out of proportion ok?

Let me say this again.

1. Make a SIMPLE section to SIMPLY uncheck and application that you don't want. THAT IS ALL! ;)

Got it?

Now please don't tell us this is complicated, plus the application will have a small bit of information explaining what it is, so then if a user doesn't really know what they want to do, what do you think they will do? Nothing they'll just leave it alone and then the developers can list right next to it, if you are unsure then the recommendation is to leave it check marked.

Now there is nothing complicated about this, we are ONLY talking about the menu programs nothing else, there isn't going to be any base system customization here, so please stick to what I'm saying...

THANKS :)
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by Kendall »

DasFox wrote:What I mean here is a section that will allow users to pick and choose what they want to install or remove
I thought this was why we had the Software Manager installed. :wink:
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by DasFox »

MALsPa wrote:DrHu makes some good points, DasFox. Maybe if you spoke directly with a developer, or became one yourself, you might feel differently. Maybe it's not as simple as you think.

Anyway... I'd have to dig around, but I don't recall anyone else complaining that there's too much "bloat" in Mint LXDE CE. Is it just one person who's unhappy with it? Just wondering.
There's nothing complicated about what I'm saying, look up and read my last post. It is simple, many distros do this and have done it since the beginning of Linux and it use to be the way, even in Mandrake going back years they even did this.

The problem now is everything is becoming homogenized, one size fits all and that's not the Linux way, that's the MS/Apple way of installs...

Everyone is starting to think everyone jumping over from Windows is to stupid to think for themselves and allow them installer choices and it's really sad... :(
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by MALsPa »

DasFox wrote:
MALsPa wrote:DrHu makes some good points, DasFox. Maybe if you spoke directly with a developer, or became one yourself, you might feel differently. Maybe it's not as simple as you think.

Anyway... I'd have to dig around, but I don't recall anyone else complaining that there's too much "bloat" in Mint LXDE CE. Is it just one person who's unhappy with it? Just wondering.
There's nothing complicated about what I'm saying, look up and read my last post. It is simple, many distros do this and have done it since the beginning of Linux and it use to be the way, even in Mandrake going back years they even did this.

The problem now is everything is becoming homogenized, one size fits all and that's not the Linux way, that's the MS/Apple way of installs...

Everyone is starting to think everyone jumping over from Windows is to stupid to think for themselves and allow them installer choices and it's really sad... :(
OK, then.

But, what about my second point:
MALsPa wrote:Anyway... I'd have to dig around, but I don't recall anyone else complaining that there's too much "bloat" in Mint LXDE CE. Is it just one person who's unhappy with it? Just wondering.
:wink:
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by DasFox »

MALsPa wrote:
DasFox wrote:
MALsPa wrote:DrHu makes some good points, DasFox. Maybe if you spoke directly with a developer, or became one yourself, you might feel differently. Maybe it's not as simple as you think.

Anyway... I'd have to dig around, but I don't recall anyone else complaining that there's too much "bloat" in Mint LXDE CE. Is it just one person who's unhappy with it? Just wondering.
There's nothing complicated about what I'm saying, look up and read my last post. It is simple, many distros do this and have done it since the beginning of Linux and it use to be the way, even in Mandrake going back years they even did this.

The problem now is everything is becoming homogenized, one size fits all and that's not the Linux way, that's the MS/Apple way of installs...

Everyone is starting to think everyone jumping over from Windows is to stupid to think for themselves and allow them installer choices and it's really sad... :(
OK, then.

But, what about my second point:
MALsPa wrote:Anyway... I'd have to dig around, but I don't recall anyone else complaining that there's too much "bloat" in Mint LXDE CE. Is it just one person who's unhappy with it? Just wondering.
:wink:
It's because everyone stepping onto the Linux bandwagon for the past few years has been dumbed down.

Everyone seems to have lost confidence in the end-user to think for themselves.

A Linux/Unix system is suppose to allow you to make it your own when you install it, not be left with a one size fits all distro, somewhere along the line this art is being lost.

Now the distro developers come along and say I want to make a user-friendly easy to install distro, yes I will not argue here it is easy to install, but has anyone lately sat for any length of time in the Ubuntu IRC channel to SEE how many people have problems with this user-friendly distro? Let me tell you it is MASSIVE!

Why no one is saying anything, probably because the majority of users here to Linux are new, or old timers that don't really care, gave up, so shame on them for doing this and loosing the concept of Linux and giving us no choices during the install and making a one size fits all distro.

Yes it's true you can make Linux anything you like, Mint can do anything they want, but I'm telling you this IS a BETTER way and it will not hurt anything at all, it will simply GIVE you a CHOICE!

Now please don't tell me as people you don't like choices in life, that's absurd, we all love them and make different ones all the time in our life, so why should using Mint be any different, where's our choice to pick and choose here during the install, that's all I'm saying...

Give us choices, they aren't bad... :)
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by MALsPa »

Dude, no offense intended, but maybe you should just use a different distro. Like you said, choices.
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by DasFox »

MALsPa wrote:Dude, no offense intended, but maybe you should just use a different distro. Like you said, choices.
Yeah, that's right I can, but this is a community to help make things better is it not?

Or are we all sheep being led with no thought for ourselves to give feedback to the community and developers to improve things?

Like I said everyone likes choices and no one can say otherwise to that at all...

So now what is everyone going to say, that they wouldn't love to have a choice during the install? Of course they would, no one wouldn't and for those that might not or don't care, good, they don't have to bother, but for those that do, at least the option was given to them.

See something everyone has really forgotten here, Mint is open-source, that means I can jump on and hack away at things and help make improvements right? So why should then our ideas be any less important to this OPEN-SOURCE movement? They shouldn't, it's all a part of the process to help make improvements and as a Linux user for the past 10 years I know for a fact there is nothing wrong with giving people choices, in fact you make them feel better for allowing them to think they have a choice, a say in the matter, to make it something of their own. This is also the Linux way, knowing that you can customize this distro, use your own desktop, windowmanager, tweek it different ways, themes, wallpapers and other assortments of eye candy and then install, not only software through the repos, but compiled and customize your own.

Yes customization is something that over the years seems to have been lost during the installation process, and it's suppose to be here, it's really also a point of open-source...

P.S. I added this to the beginning post:

Let's please not bring rants, trolls, and flames to this post. I'm trying to bring a valid point to this post for the improvement of this distro. If you have anything to share then please contribute to this point and show us any counter negative points to this so we can share on those ideas as well. My intentions with my experience is only to help, share and improve, so let's all do this... THANKS!
:)
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by MALsPa »

Well, looks like Kendall has read your complaints, so your voice has been heard. From earlier in the thread:
Crunnluath wrote:Helena LXDE was just a first try -- Isadora LXDE is, I believe, going to be rather different, and probably lighter overall [...] so let's wait a bit and see how it turns out. Applications are easy enough to install or uninstall according to preference, anyway.
Hopefully the next version will be more to your liking.
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by DasFox »

MALsPa wrote:Well, looks like Kendall has read your complaints, so your voice has been heard. From earlier in the thread:
Crunnluath wrote:Helena LXDE was just a first try -- Isadora LXDE is, I believe, going to be rather different, and probably lighter overall [...] so let's wait a bit and see how it turns out. Applications are easy enough to install or uninstall according to preference, anyway.
Hopefully the next version will be more to your liking.
This isn't a complaint, you've just missed the point of open-source, maybe in the future you'll learn this...

PEACE
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by MALsPa »

DasFox wrote: This isn't a complaint, you've just missed the point of open-source, maybe in the future you'll learn this...
I don't think I have "missed the point of open-source" at all.

And of course it's a complaint. Look at the title of this thread, and then look up the word "complaint."
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by Kendall »

DasFox,

I completely understand your reasoning, but your reasoning is inconsistent with the Mint philosophy of distro building. You say that we should have all of the options in the installer, but I say we go ahead and give everything to the user and let them pick and choose from there. You never know, they might find a lot of good apps that they otherwise would have just skipped over. There's nothing wrong with having everything there by default, we have the Software Manager, Synaptic, and the terminal for people to learn and use to configure their systems however they want.

On another note there are people who don't want to learn and just want to install a system and use it. Are you suggesting that we don't accept these people into the Linux world or make it considerably more difficult for them? Adding more options to the install process can deter people away from Linux adoption. Give them something crazy easy and full featured to work with and let them go from there.

As has been mentioned, nobody else has complained about "bloat" in Mint LXDE. In fact it runs particularly well on a lot of old machines where the Gnome and KDE versions lag. Nobody else seems to take issue with uninstalling what they don't use or don't like and installing what suits them better. I tend to be pragmatic in my decision making and I don't favor the "vocal minority" over the "silent majority" so nothing in this thread is going to weigh heavily on the decisions I make for Mint 9. I will make it faster and smaller where I can, but I will not veer away from the Mint philosophy just to satisfy your wants. If this doesn't suit you, then you're more than welcome to try (and like) any other distro and I will not think less of you for it. Seriously go try Salix, it's fantastic, small, fast, and is an excellent implementation of Xfce. Look at the default Debian build with LXDE, it's quick and offers a very solid core from which you can do anything you want. Go download Peppermint OS, it's tiny and crazy fast using webapps instead of locally installed ones. Take a good look at Crunchbang, or perhaps Archbang if you're a little edgier, where you already have Openbox and only need to add a couple of things to have a full LXDE desktop.

The point here is that we all have a lot of options in the Linux world. We have options for what we use and, for those of us who build distros, we have options for what we build. I don't criticize people for using the apps they want, and I don't criticize developers for building the distros that they build. Please stop questioning my judgement on this. Either use it and make it what you want it to be, use something else, or go build something that you see as ideal. If you do build something let me know, I'd love to try it.

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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by DasFox »

Kendall wrote:DasFox,

I completely understand your reasoning, but your reasoning is inconsistent with the Mint philosophy of distro building. You say that we should have all of the options in the installer, but I say we go ahead and give everything to the user and let them pick and choose from there. You never know, they might find a lot of good apps that they otherwise would have just skipped over. There's nothing wrong with having everything there by default, we have the Software Manager, Synaptic, and the terminal for people to learn and use to configure their systems however they want.

No I never said anything about having ALL the options in the installer, I said to ONLY have the program applications listed in the menu with the ability to not have those installed, that's all and with a small description explaining what they were too. This did not mean the system config or preferences section, just the programs, office, internet, etc... No one said they are going to loose anything for these apps you are suggesting they might have skipped over. With the description they can read and make a choice for themselves. Look I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just saying are you afraid to let people make a choice?

On another note there are people who don't want to learn and just want to install a system and use it. Are you suggesting that we don't accept these people into the Linux world or make it considerably more difficult for them? Adding more options to the install process can deter people away from Linux adoption. Give them something crazy easy and full featured to work with and let them go from there.


No I never suggested that either I said for those people they are simply going to ignore this choice and just install the defaults, so what's wrong with that?



As has been mentioned, nobody else has complained about "bloat" in Mint LXDE. In fact it runs particularly well on a lot of old machines where the Gnome and KDE versions lag. Nobody else seems to take issue with uninstalling what they don't use or don't like and installing what suits them better. I tend to be pragmatic in my decision making and I don't favor the "vocal minority" over the "silent majority" so nothing in this thread is going to weigh heavily on the decisions I make for Mint 9. I will make it faster and smaller where I can, but I will not veer away from the Mint philosophy just to satisfy your wants. If this doesn't suit you, then you're more than welcome to try (and like) any other distro and I will not think less of you for it. Seriously go try Salix, it's fantastic, small, fast, and is an excellent implementation of Xfce. Look at the default Debian build with LXDE, it's quick and offers a very solid core from which you can do anything you want. Go download Peppermint OS, it's tiny and crazy fast using webapps instead of locally installed ones. Take a good look at Crunchbang, or perhaps Archbang if you're a little edgier, where you already have Openbox and only need to add a couple of things to have a full LXDE desktop.


I never asked you to veer from the Mint philosophy just to satisfy me at all. Allowing users a simple section to choose the applications or remove them isn't going to affect any Mint philosophy, in fact it opens doors for allowing a wider range of users into Mint who would like this feature, what's wrong with considering that?


The point here is that we all have a lot of options in the Linux world. We have options for what we use and, for those of us who build distros, we have options for what we build. I don't criticize people for using the apps they want, and I don't criticize developers for building the distros that they build. Please stop questioning my judgement on this. Either use it and make it what you want it to be, use something else, or go build something that you see as ideal. If you do build something let me know, I'd love to try it.

No one ever questioned anything, I'm simply saying there isn't anything wrong with giving these options in the installation, they aren't going to affect this philosophy.

Kendall

Thanks for listening and thanks for your replies, see my replies above in bold...

There's nothing wrong with experimenting, putting this in a new version and letting people see and judge for themselves, in the end, as I stated if they don't care for it, then they just pass it by and install the defaults with all the menu application programs, no harm done. But truly the only way to know is to try.

Also did you ever stop to think the reasons no one has ever said anything, because they probably figured it was a waste of time, so why bother when there are another 100 distros to play with and went somewhere else, but me I see something good, I just want to give you some input is all, Now to me that's a good thing, someone willing to take the time to give feedback to help make things better. :)

THANKS
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by Kendall »

Well, go ahead and code that up for me right quick and I'll run it by Clem. You'll need to write a framework that can read user defined choices as specified in the LXDE menu and patch the ubiquity installer to work with that framework in order to pass those options into the casper manifest before it's read during the install process. Another option would be to have an actual application that launches right in front of ubiquity that lists the available options and then updates the casper manifest accordingly before ubiquity is launched. Another option would be to just add this as an option during the first step of the installer as it hasn't read the casper manifest just yet. Good luck.

My question to you is this: What's wrong with using the software manager to do the exact same thing you're suggesting after the system installs? Seriously.

Never once have I seen someone let an abundance of default applications stop them from installing a distro. The solution is simple: take them out after it's installed. Never once have I met anyone else who has ever even mentioned an abundance of default applications as being a bad thing. People aren't saying anything because there's nothing to say here. It's a non-issue to everyone else in the world, why is it an issue to you?
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by DasFox »

Kendall wrote:Well, go ahead and code that up for me right quick and I'll run it by Clem. You'll need to write a framework that can read user defined choices as specified in the LXDE menu and patch the ubiquity installer to work with that framework in order to pass those options into the casper manifest before it's read during the install process. Another option would be to have an actual application that launches right in front of ubiquity that lists the available options and then updates the casper manifest accordingly before ubiquity is launched. Another option would be to just add this as an option during the first step of the installer as it hasn't read the casper manifest just yet. Good luck.

My question to you is this: What's wrong with using the software manager to do the exact same thing you're suggesting after the system installs? Seriously.

Never once have I seen someone let an abundance of default applications stop them from installing a distro. The solution is simple: take them out after it's installed. Never once have I met anyone else who has ever even mentioned an abundance of default applications as being a bad thing. People aren't saying anything because there's nothing to say here. It's a non-issue to everyone else in the world, why is it an issue to you?

Well Kendall, I'm happy that you have taken the time to discuss these ideas here, I'm sorry I'm not a coder, if I was I'd be right there jumping on to lend a hand. I was merely making a suggestion as an experienced end-user which I mentioned.

To say this is not an issue with others in the Linux community would not be a fair and correct reply. That is why there are many people the world over using Gentoo, Slackware, Arch, SuSe and other distros that do exactly this, for that very reason people do like choices.

Ok, seriously as you've mentioned what's the problem with just uninstalling them, well why even install them if you aren't going to use them in the first place, why even go there? That in itself is just making more work too for the end-user, when it could of been easily accomplished from the beginning.

Also I think this could be a very valid point to add to the Mint philosophy, people as you suggested earlier with limited speeds and bandwidth, well they might also be limited in disk size, so having less for them will allow them more space for the things they really need, so that's the point, not even going there in the beginning and just not installing them. But as you just said, they can clean it out later to make room, but as I said, why even go there, just get it done in the beginning.

I personally have held the beliefs it's better to start right from the beginning of anything in life, rather then clean up towards the end, I think most would agree, and thus this is the ideas for this options, start it out right from the beginning...

THANKS
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by Kendall »

DasFox wrote:Well Kendall, I'm happy that you have taken the time to discuss these ideas here, I'm sorry I'm not a coder, if I was I'd be right there jumping on to lend a hand. I was merely making a suggestion as an experienced end-user which I mentioned.
I'm not a coder either. Every bit of functional code I've ever written has been stuff I've learned since November when I hopped into the lion's den and started maintaining Mint Fluxbox. Sometimes if you want to see an idea come to fruition, you have to step outside of your skill set learn what is necessary to make that a reality.
DasFox wrote:To say this is not an issue with others in the Linux community would not be a fair and correct reply. That is why there are many people the world over using Gentoo, Slackware, Arch, SuSe and other distros that do exactly this, for that very reason people do like choices.
...and what is Mint's market share versus any of the aforementioned?
DasFox wrote:Ok, seriously as you've mentioned what's the problem with just uninstalling them, well why even install them if you aren't going to use them in the first place, why even go there? That in itself is just making more work too for the end-user, when it could of been easily accomplished from the beginning.
It's no more difficult than going through a list of applications before/during an install process, except you aren't stuck with the stress of having to make the decision right then and there. Have them installed in the first place and they might prove useful for something if you take on a project outside your norm, or they might inspire new ideas by having them to play with in the first place.
DasFox wrote:Also I think this could be a very valid point to add to the Mint philosophy, people as you suggested earlier with limited speeds and bandwidth, well they might also be limited in disk size, so having less for them will allow them more space for the things they really need, so that's the point, not even going there in the beginning and just not installing them. But as you just said, they can clean it out later to make room, but as I said, why even go there, just get it done in the beginning.
Disk space is virtually a non-issue. Practically every computer made with enough RAM to run any Mint edition will have way more than enough disk space to install to. The exceptions are exceedingly rare and only seem to include obscure netbook models with tiny SSDs purpose built for particular operating systems that aren't Mint. I've only heard stories. I've never actually seen one.
DasFox wrote:I personally have held the beliefs it's better to start right from the beginning of anything in life, rather then clean up towards the end, I think most would agree, and thus this is the ideas for this options, start it out right from the beginning...
This is where we have a particularly strong philosophical difference. I don't find it sane to consider a freshly installed OS to be "the end" of anything and I think most would agree with me on that.
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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by mick55 »

DasFox wrote:Remember Linux is about CHOICES & FREEDOM
Yes, please remember that.

Kendall has exercised his freedom and made his choice.

We should respect that.
Things are more like they are now than they ever were before.

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Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Post by DasFox »

Kendall, I never said the install was the end all, it's only the beginning too... :)
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