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Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 1:30 am
by DasFox
First let me start this out in a positive note, everyone involved has done a great job and I'm happy for this, BUT....

LXDE stands for what people? ---> Lightweight X11 Desktop Environment. ;)

I'm sorry to say but someone forgot the point here to keep things light weight!

This CE version is way to bloated, this is like having Gnome installed with LXDE right be side it.

If you think this is a light weight LXDE based distro then someone really needs to have a look at Lubuntu, now that's light weight.

Now not only in the amount of apps installed but light weight system intensive, like replacing Firefox with Chromium, come on now people FF has been a memory leaking hog since the 2.x versions have come along and it's not doing all that great these days either. And then who's idea was that to install Brasero over XFburn, talk about another app that needs a ton more dependencies. Brasero is for the GNOME desktop and everyone knows GNOME = MORE dependencies.

MORE dependencies is not light weight either.

Someone on the Mint Team really needs to go back and THINK this one over and make a LIGHT WEIGHT LXDE based distro here. ;)

Let's please not bring rants, trolls, and flames to this post. I'm trying to bring a valid point to this post for the improvement of this distro. If you have anything to share then please contribute to this point and show us any counter negative points to this so we can share on those ideas as well. My intentions with my experience is only to help share and improve, so let's all do this...

THANKS

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 3:09 pm
by Losgann
So basically you're dissing Helena LXDE CD because you disagree with a couple of app choices? :|

If I were a pendant (oh wait, I am! :)) I could point out that "Lightweight X11 Desktop Environment" says that the DE is lightweight... nothing in there about the apps running under the DE!

However, Helena LXDE was just a first try -- Isadora LXDE is, I believe, going to be rather different, and probably lighter overall; I'm fairly sure I read in another thread that it is being based on Lubuntu 10.04 (I don't think I'm making that up... am I?) so let's wait a bit and see how it turns out. Applications are easy enough to install or uninstall according to preference, anyway.

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 3:46 pm
by Kendall
DasFox wrote:This CE version is way to bloated, this is like having Gnome installed with LXDE right be side it.
Mint, by virtue of what we're offering the end user in the first place, tends to be a lot more resource intensive than a lot of other distributions. Mint LXDE is significantly lighter on resources than the Main edition and is only beaten out by the Fluxbox edition by a small margin. The purpose here was to have a lighter version of what is still a full featured, "everything works" distro. We're not going for epic speed here, we're going for maximum user friendliness.
DasFox wrote:If you think this is a light weight LXDE based distro then someone really needs to have a look at Lubuntu, now that's light weight.
Of course Lubuntu ships with every language pack installed by default, and has no integration for Java, Flash, mp3, and can't play DVD's. I communicate a lot with Julien Laverne (the Lubuntu maintainer) and what should be noted is that we're not shooting for the exact same goals here. I've ripped every Lubuntu release to pieces for testing and analysis purposes and I've adopted a lot of Julien's good ideas for Mint 9, but not at the expense of user friendliness or stability.
DasFox wrote:Now not only in the amount of apps installed but light weight system intensive, like replacing Firefox with Chromium, come on now people FF has been a memory leaking hog since the 2.x versions have come along and it's not doing all that great these days either. And then who's idea was that to install Brasero over XFburn, talk about another app that needs a ton more dependencies. Brasero is for the GNOME desktop and everyone knows GNOME = MORE dependencies.
Consider that Chrome opens every tab as a new browser instance. Now consider how many browser instances does it take to make Chrome more resource intensive than Firefox. The answer is usually about 4, depending upon hardware. Now consider that even the new pcmanfm file manager uses gvfs (gnome virtual file system) and is dependent upon gnome-disk-utility. In order to create a cohesive, stable desktop environment it's often very necessary to make compromises on account of space. Also consider that just because a dependency is installed, doesn't mean that it's running as a background process and hogging your resources. Most Gnome dependencies are libraries and are only there to be used by specific applications to handle specific functions. Having them installed doesn't affect anything other than the install footprint.

The app selection was decided upon in that it offers the most stable and user friendly environment possible. xfburn works better on the lucid base than on the karmic base so I'll likely include it in Mint 9, but my testing resulted in having Brasero as the default for Mint 8 just to be on the safe side. Chrome is still far too unstable for me to consider using in Mint, even in Mint 9
DasFox wrote:Someone on the Mint Team really needs to go back and THINK this one over and make a LIGHT WEIGHT LXDE based distro here.
The reason Mint is what it is today is because of the THINKing that goes into it, the extensive testing of applications for stability, user friendliness, and general cohesion, and the "it's not ready until it's ready" mentality that every project is approached with.

I hope you use Mint 8 LXDE, and I hope you enjoy it, but remember that minimalism and uber-speed aren't always cohesive with the Mint philosophy of disto building. I hope my comments here have helped to clarify a lot of the decisions that were made during the assembly and release of this particular distro. :wink:

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 3:48 pm
by Carl
Crunnluath wrote:So basically you're dissing Helena LXDE CD because you disagree with a couple of app choices? :|

If I were a pendant (oh wait, I am! :)) I could point out that "Lightweight X11 Desktop Environment" says that the DE is lightweight... nothing in there about the apps running under the DE!

However, Helena LXDE was just a first try -- Isadora LXDE is, I believe, going to be rather different, and probably lighter overall; I'm fairly sure I read in another thread that it is being based on Lubuntu 10.04 (I don't think I'm making that up... am I?) so let's wait a bit and see how it turns out. Applications are easy enough to install or uninstall according to preference, anyway.
I think you might be missing the OP's point a bit...

I think what he means is that to include GTK apps your also having to run other gnome dependencies along with it, thus increasing the footprint of the OS :?:

it's like people who won't run KDE apps in Gnome... *sigh*

Seems silly to me...

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 3:55 pm
by Biker
Doesn't matter what the dev's do. Someone will always complain, just for the sake of complaining.

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 7:24 pm
by .ee
I actually felt very comfortable with Mint LXDE8 choices, more comfortable than with other LXDE linuxes, such as Lubuntu, sidux with LXDE, or Arch with LXDE which I tried to build myself. For my purposes it is the best LXDE linux, and it may replace on my main notebook the standard Mint (as it has already done on the second ultraportable notebook).

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 8:03 pm
by MALsPa
Biker wrote:Doesn't matter what the dev's do. Someone will always complain, just for the sake of complaining.

So true.

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 8:09 pm
by Losgann
Carl wrote:I think you might be missing the OP's point a bit...
I did understand what the OP was getting at; I just felt myself compelled to stand up and defend Lexie's honour from being impugned. :)
it's like people who won't run KDE apps in Gnome... *sigh*
I agree... I personally find that that sort of fanboyistic nonsense rather annoying.

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:43 pm
by mick55
Crunnluath wrote:If I were a pendant (oh wait, I am! :))
Uuummmm..... I think you mean "Pedant" ......a "Pendant" is a necklace. :P





Reporter:- Are you a "Mod" or a "Rocker"?

Ringo:- I'm a "Mocker" :mrgreen:

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 12:11 am
by vger7
Hey, you could always build your own distro with a file manager
and ZERO applications installed.

Now that would be really lightweight! :D

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 3:27 am
by DasFox
First off no one is complaining for the sake of it. I've been using Linux/Unix systems for 10 years, I know what they are and I know what Mint is about.

Mint can still approach LXDE with the goals in mind it wants, user friendliness with again a different approach, LIGHTWEIGHT.

Let me clarify this lightweight user friendliness approach that will work!

1. Install a smaller amount of apps to maintain the goal.
2. Less Gnome dependency and more focus on something like XFce dependency. Also Mint possibly developing their own apps.
3. Less dependency on Gnome apps also for the sake of cutting size down, 300MB-500MB sized distro.

In this goal that Mint wants to move in, Mint has to start placing confidence in the end-user that they are smart enough and capable enough to install what a distro might not have. Mint LXDE should have a smaller amount of apps installed.

Remember Linux is about CHOICES & FREEDOM, so just give the user a small base to work from in this and let them pick and choose to build it up the way they like and take it from there. After all isn't that the reason most are using Linux? Of course it is, people wanted more freedom and choices that is why many jumped on to Linux, besides some other issues, like security and a lack of viruses...

If everyone needs to go to the bigger boat then jump on Gnome, a distro based on LXDE is not going to be the norm and will typically be more experienced users, or someone willing to learn, so give them the choice, just give a basic system with the ability to pick and choose.

After all if all you did was just install a couple of apps, leave it so the system of course is still set up with like the media libs/codecs/flash/java and so on, so that someone can easily just add on and away they go, then you are not destroying this idea of user-friendliness in any way instead you are just reinforcing it in the idea giving over some freedom to the user to make it more their own.

What makes you think because it's smaller it's not user friendly, this has nothing to do with anything, smaller doesn't mean it's not user friendly it just means it's a smaller user friendly system, LOL... ;)

Also in this goal of user friendly you have made a distro that is slower and doesn't respond as fast as it could. Yes Mint LXDE is slower and more sluggish then Lubuntu and that I certainly don't want in a distro like this, I want the utmost in speed and stability that's also a very big point in people using a system like this, they are tired of the slow running hogs that Gnome and KDE can be and they want something that is faster.

One thing I think you have missed in your goals is that you have made them YOUR goals and LOST sight of the people, thinking we are not capable of handling the distro on our own to have a smaller base system and then working from there.
It's a shame to many people are trying to do what you are doing, making a one size fits all distro and this is not what Linux is about, it's suppose to be about freedom, freedom in open-source, freedom with free software and a distro that you are free to make it your own. Now this doesn't mean I'm still not free to make this LXDE my own, the problem is now the end-user has to start with more bloat and rip it out to make it their own and many times when people do this they end up breaking things, so it's better to start from the bottom and work your way up and in LXDE we have to start now at the top the way this has been made and strip it down.

THANKS

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 11:29 am
by GravityGilly
DasFox wrote:snip
You do realise that by emphasising "CHOICE AND FREEDOM" so much you've provided the solution to your own problem? It seems like you simply don't like Mint LXDE. Fine, there's plenty of choice of other distros out there for you to use.

In addition, I also think you missed Kendall's original reply to your post. To quote him:
Kendall wrote:The purpose here was to have a lighter version of what is still a full featured, "everything works" distro.
i.e. (if I understand him correctly) Mint LXDE is about a fully featured OS first, being lightweight second. You seem to want it to be being lightweight first, and fully featured second; something that I doubt will happen.

Lastly, I wouldn't be so sure with your assertion that an LXDE based distro will only attract more experienced users/those willing to learn or fiddle etc. In my case it's precisely the opposite: I'm a relatively inexperienced user, and chose Mint LXDE because I wanted the Mint "experience" but with the ability to run on older hardware. I wouldn't want Mint to start losing applications purely in the name of becoming more lightweight, because I'd only have to go and install them again.

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 2:25 pm
by Kendall
DasFox,

I haven't lost sight of anything. You obviously haven't seen some of my other projects. :wink: The issue here is that it seems that you want a Mint release to not be all the things that constitute and define what a Mint release is in the first place. If you want the lightest, fastest distro possible, you simply aren't going to find it with Mint. If you want a minimal core system from which to build your own "perfect setup", you simply aren't going to find it with Mint. I will say that Mint 9 LXDE will be smaller and faster than Mint 8 LXDE, but again I'm not going to cut corners with the app selection and the overall stability of the system in the name of space and speed.

"The goal" here is a complete and fully functioning desktop using a lighter and faster DE than the main edition. "The goal" is not a smaller iso file or a stripped down desktop. May I be absolutely clear on one thing: iso file size is pretty meaningless so long as it's below 700 MB. The vast majority of what goes into the iso, beyond the 300 or so MB it takes to build an Ubuntu based system with LXDE, is applications that have no effect on boot time and no effect on idle resource usage. We have 700 MB to work with, so why not take advantage of that?

Mint has become extremely popular by strictly adhering to certain principles when building releases. I'm not going to veer off of that path so please stop asking me to. If my own personal goals got mixed up in this release then trust me in that it would be considerably different.

Kendall

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 2:36 pm
by DasFox
Kendall wrote:DasFox,

I haven't lost sight of anything. You obviously haven't seen some of my other projects. :wink: The issue here is that it seems that you want a Mint release to not be all the things that constitute and define what a Mint release is in the first place. If you want the lightest, fastest distro possible, you simply aren't going to find it with Mint. If you want a minimal core system from which to build your own "perfect setup", you simply aren't going to find it with Mint. I will say that Mint 9 LXDE will be smaller and faster than Mint 8 LXDE, but again I'm not going to cut corners with the app selection and the overall stability of the system in the name of space and speed.

"The goal" here is a complete and fully functioning desktop using a lighter and faster DE than the main edition. "The goal" is not a smaller iso file or a stripped down desktop. May I be absolutely clear on one thing: iso file size is pretty meaningless so long as it's below 700 MB. The vast majority of what goes into the iso, beyond the 300 or so MB it takes to build an Ubuntu based system with LXDE, is applications that have no effect on boot time and no effect on idle resource usage. We have 700 MB to work with, so why not take advantage of that?

Mint has become extremely popular by strictly adhering to certain principles when building releases. I'm not going to veer off of that path so please stop asking me to. If my own personal goals got mixed up in this release then trust me in that it would be considerably different.

Kendall

Fully Featured OS, hmm a good thought and question, what is this fully featured OS REALLY suppose to mean? Well it's whatever anyone wants it to be.

You're missing the point, not understanding what I'm trying to explain. I'm not suggesting this not be a fully featured OS, I'm suggesting that it doesn't need to have all the applications installed to be one, but if someone wants them, they are there to download and install.

Actually look at WIndows 7, when you buy a Windows 7 cd/dvd, it has nothing when you compare it to Mint, yet isn't Windows a fully featured OS in it's own rights? Of course it is, if it wasn't MS wouldn't of put it out the way it is. So when you want to make it a more fully featured OS with all the software something like Mint has, what does the user have to do? You need to go out and get it. :) Unless of course you bought a computer with Windows on it, then it might have some freeware on it, but typically it has more shareware/trial software on it. So no, not even Windows has as much.

Actually this CE version has more software going on then Windows 7 does and what Windows 7 has is under the hood features and services going on. Pretty odd when you ask me that a lighter weight system like this has more software installed in it.

I never said not to develop and have the software availalbe on the repositries, by which you can get it through Synaptic, I'm simply saying the team building this distro version doesn't have to install as much and just leave it up to the end-user to install what they want, there is nothing wrong with this or complicated, or breaking the ideas and goals here. Perfect example of what I mean, let's say there wasn't OpenOffice installed, so then a user drops into the forum or the IRC channel and simply asks everyone what is a nice office program to install, gets some replies back, and then installs something, BINGO mission accomplished and all is well... ;)

HEY people don't get me wrong here I think what Mint does it great, I just happen to know and believe that it can be better and there's nothing wrong with user-input, that's what this is also all about a community giving feedback.

I'm not trying to brag, so don't take it as that, but as I mentioned I've been using Linux based distros 10 years, I've used every major distro and then many odd named ones that most have never heard of. I'm only trying to give some constructive criticism here to help make a difference for the better. I've used other distros with only LXDE installed and they performed better, that's really why I came here to make this post because this Mint version is not as good as it could or should be all in line with the Mint goals, again making a FUNCTIONAL distro, but with LESS in it, thus allowing the end-user to install into it, making it more complete if they feel the need to do so.

Remember that Mint repo is still sitting there and if 15 apps were ripped out, the distro is not going to suffer one bit, either a few clicks of the mouse or typing in the terminal will resolve whatever is missing.

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 3:21 pm
by Kendall
What about people who are dealing with not having networking capabilities or are working with limited/expensive bandwidth? A lot of people are using Mint in these situations installing from purchased and shared CD's. If I drop applications from the default install then these people suffer as they don't have either cheap or easy access to them. This is a very serious issue here at Mint and is not a place where corners are going to be cut for the sake of space.

There was a lot of deliberation regarding having OpenOffice installed by default in the Fluxbox and LXDE editions this past time around. I very much wanted to run with Abiword and Gnumeric, but there was a particularly serious language pack dependency issue that would pull in and install OpenOffice even if it wasn't a default application. Imagine a situation where someone buys a CD of the LXDE edition to save their bandwidth, enables networking just to get the language packs for their language, and accidentally pulls in an extra 180 MB of software. As mentioned, this is a serious issue so OpenOffice was installed by default in all of the Mint 8 releases. The language pack dependency has since been fixed for the lucid base so I have a few more options this next time around.

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 4:56 pm
by DasFox
Kendall wrote:What about people who are dealing with not having networking capabilities or are working with limited/expensive bandwidth? A lot of people are using Mint in these situations installing from purchased and shared CD's. If I drop applications from the default install then these people suffer as they don't have either cheap or easy access to them. This is a very serious issue here at Mint and is not a place where corners are going to be cut for the sake of space.

There was a lot of deliberation regarding having OpenOffice installed by default in the Fluxbox and LXDE editions this past time around. I very much wanted to run with Abiword and Gnumeric, but there was a particularly serious language pack dependency issue that would pull in and install OpenOffice even if it wasn't a default application. Imagine a situation where someone buys a CD of the LXDE edition to save their bandwidth, enables networking just to get the language packs for their language, and accidentally pulls in an extra 180 MB of software. As mentioned, this is a serious issue so OpenOffice was installed by default in all of the Mint 8 releases. The language pack dependency has since been fixed for the lucid base so I have a few more options this next time around.
Ahh networking capabilities or limited/expensive bandwidth, very good point! :)

Ok I have a GREAT resolution for you and I hope you'll all jump on this, because I truly think this will be something that will truly set Mint apart and to then be incorporate into all Linux Mint versions.

--> INSTALL OPTIONS

What I mean here is a section that will allow users to pick and choose what they want to install or remove, then we don't have to worry about anyone's particular needs it will be met during the installation, giving them the chance to choose rather then you just making a one size fits all distro.

Now what do you think about this?

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 4:59 pm
by DrHu
DasFox wrote:I never said not to develop and have the software availalbe on the repositries, by which you can get it through Synaptic, I'm simply saying the team building this distro version doesn't have to install as much and just leave it up to the end-user to install what they want, there is nothing wrong with this or complicated, or breaking the ideas and goals here. Perfect example of what I mean, let's say there wasn't OpenOffice installed, so then a user drops into the forum or the IRC channel and simply asks everyone what is a nice office program to install, gets some replies back, and then installs something, BINGO mission accomplished and all is well..
That goes against your credo of something lightweight and faster: what about the download factor (bingo, you lose)
--and how would a new user know anything about irc or possible irc applications, if they were not already installed in the base lxde system
Kendall wrote:There was a lot of deliberation regarding having OpenOffice installed by default in the Fluxbox and LXDE editions this past time around. I very much wanted to run with Abiword and Gnumeric
Gee, I hope not, not Gnome + Gnumeric (dependency packs) + abiword, which I don't even use..
OpenOffice has been discussed already; and I hope most will agree that an office suite is a necessary application that should be included within the base OS, saves the big download, and is so often touted by some other OS: it just works..
Maybe, I had better retain the OpenOffice download, so that I can make it the default, if the next lxde changes..
Ahh networking capabilities or limited/expensive bandwidth, very good point!
Ok I have a GREAT resolution for you and I hope you'll all jump on this, because I truly think this will be something that will truly set Mint apart and to then be incorporate into all Linux Mint versions.
--> INSTALL OPTIONS
..Ok I have a GREAT resolution for you and I hope you'll all jump on this..
Back on your favorite topic
--I can't wait to see what Linux distribution you produce..
..that will truly set Mint apart and to then be incorporate into all Linux Mint versions.
--> INSTALL OPTIONS

Complicates the installation, other Linux's did that, Suse for example, let you completely customize the package selections installed during installation; however it was at the expense of TIME and making decisions/choices, if you understood the choices being offered. and I don't know that Suse still has that functionality or not...
--another choice for you, would be LFS (Linux from Scratch) or Novell/Suse Linux appliances..
--we can't expect new users to Linux to be even able to understand such choices, when another OS simply hides everything (except advertorials..) while it takes 45 minutes to install

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 5:04 pm
by MALsPa
DasFox wrote:Ok I have a GREAT resolution for you and I hope you'll all jump on this, because I truly think this will be something that will truly set Mint apart and to then be incorporate into all Linux Mint versions.

--> INSTALL OPTIONS

What I mean here is a section that will allow users to pick and choose what they want to install or remove, then we don't have to worry about anyone's particular needs it will be met during the installation, giving them the chance to choose rather then you just making a one size fits all distro.

Now what do you think about this?
Sounds like a nice idea. I think I'd like a distro like that...

Hey, isn't that kinda like what Debian already does?

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 5:33 pm
by DasFox
DrHu it doesn't have to be as complicated as SuSe made it look.

With Mint they could make a simple little customize gui listing the apps installed with a small explanation of what they are and you simply uncheck what you don't want installed. And I'm not talking about even making choices about networking software or services, just the basic apps listed in the menu...

But it would be nice to also have a simple expert section for those that want to then remove things like Samba or the Network File Sharing, Remote, scanner software, and some of the more in depth apps... Again just a simple gui, just uncheck it and done... Also there were a few odd ones I can't remember listed in the program menu.

All the apps in the program menu should be listed in the installer with the option of unchecking...

There wouldn't be anything complicated about this...

I love when we had choices when Linux started out, now almost everyone is just making them a one size fits all distro... :(

Re: Way To Much Bloat In LXDE CE

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 5:38 pm
by DrHu
DasFox wrote:DrHu it doesn't have to be as complicated as SuSe made it look.
Thanks, but who is going to do all that work, when the simpler method of decision-making allows you (the developers) to make it even easier, by your decisions on what to use or not use..
DasFox wrote:All the apps in the program menu should be listed in the installer with the option of unchecking...
There wouldn't be anything complicated about this...
Suse apparently found it complicated enough: perhaps it isn't as easy as you believe.some time ago, around Suse version 6 etc..
--and you are still presuming that a new user understands what value an application has, and again it complicates the installation for a new user
  • I see one immediate difficulty:
  • Start with an empty set
    --allow the user to click and decide packages to install
  • Start with a base set
    --the desktop environment and allow the user to click to install other applications
  • Start with a base set, your method
    --allow the user to un-click what to leave out; you do as the installer need to provide a boot base/desktop environment, that probably has the network running and Internet applications, as well as the package managers: So it can't be a completely user driven scenario..
Being that a naive user is the target demographic for desktop Linux or Mint, this just makes it more difficult for the developers with little if any return for their efforts..
--but I can't speak for them, perhaps they can simply tell you why doing this presents many difficulties: apart from scheduling conflicts that are inevitable..