Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

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asbesto
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Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby asbesto » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:53 am

I strongly believe GNU/Linux has to be as more UNIX as possible:

Small is beautiful.
Make each program do one thing well.
Build a prototype as soon as possible.
Choose portability over efficiency.
Store data in flat text files.
Use software leverage to your advantage.
Use shell scripts to increase leverage and portability.
Avoid captive user interfaces.
Make every program a filter.

So I hope Linux Mint will stay FREE of this madness called systemd! :)

Are there any directions for the future about this?

no flames, please.

;)
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viking777
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Re: Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby viking777 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:06 am

I think you are going to be disappointed, read through this thread: viewtopic.php?f=61&t=157672&p=823564&hilit=mint+systemd#p823564
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Re: Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby Monsta » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:24 am

asbesto wrote:So I hope Linux Mint will stay FREE of this madness called systemd! :)

Don't you know that Mint is based on Ubuntu and therefore just gets whatever is available upstream? The same goes for LMDE being based on Debian.

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Re: Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby altair4 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:27 am

Ah, the 10 commandments ... er .... 9 commandments of UNIX. I think even UNIX has now violated most of those.

Since Debian will now use systemd and since Mint's LMDE points to Debian Testing you could set your system to do an update before going to sleep tonight and wake up with systemd in charge tomorrow morning.

If you use Ubuntu based Mint you won't see a change until Mint 18 at the earliest. Mint 17 will be based on Ubuntu 14.04 and that will still have Upstart. It's also an LTS release so if you hold out long enough and use it until support ends you're good for another 5 years without systemd.

5 years is an eternity in Linux so one of 2 things will happen:

*** systemd will be a credible, reliable, and stable mechanism by then and all your worries will seem silly.

OR,

*** systemd will be a credible, reliable, and stable mechanism by then so it will obviously have to be replaced with systemd2 or systeme and we'll start the whole thing over again.
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Re: Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby Monsta » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:38 am

altair4 wrote:Since Debian will now use systemd and since Mint's LMDE points to Debian Testing you could set your system to do an update before going to sleep tonight and wake up with systemd in charge tomorrow morning.

Please don't post such things. People may mistakenly think that LMDE actually gets updates from Testing everyday. :)

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Re: Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby asbesto » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:39 am

I red that topic - and they talk about Ubuntu/debian, not linux mint :) so my question make sense here :)
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Re: Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby altair4 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:14 am

asbesto wrote:Hope someone stop poettering ASAP! :)

And what would we have done without PulseAudio and Avahi? Of course these didn't work very well when they were initially released but that's what those unsung developers who cleaned it up and made it work are for.
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Re: Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby asbesto » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:17 am

Pulseaudio is the first thing I remove when installing a system or when I have problems with audio :)

avahi sometimes take over network configurations unaware of other programs doing the same... creating a mess! :(
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Re: Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby altair4 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:42 am

asbesto wrote:avahi sometimes take over network configurations unaware of other programs doing the same... creating a mess! :(

On a serious note though I have to admit that bringing avahi to Linux is noting short of a gift. Like I said before it didn't work too well when initially created but once it was given to a group of adult professional devleopers it became something wonderful.

*** Using Samba in an all Linux or a Linux / OSX network becomes elegantly simple with mDNS / zerconf / Bonjour / Avahi. In fact you can under those conditions dismantle the Windows / netbios mechanism completely to satisfy those that think Samba is just for Windows.

*** Ever wonder how it is that when you install Linux today CUPS automatically registers all the shared network printers for you? That's Avahi ( What Apple calls Bonjour ):
To overcome the problems and keeping network printing as easy as before (this is why 10 years ago the distros switched to CUPS) the cups-filters project of OpenPrinting introduced cups-browsed, an extra daemon which by default listens to Bonjour broadcasts of remote CUPS daemons (of IPP printers coming soon) and automatically creates local print queues pointing to the shared printers making pure CUPS 1.6.x networks working out-of-the-box.
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Re: Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby asbesto » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:36 am

Ah! nice to know :) but I remember manually discovering network printers via CUPS on a system without avahi-stuff... or I'm wrong?
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Re: Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby kurotsugi » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:08 am

Since Debian will now use systemd and since Mint's LMDE points to Debian Testing you could set your system to do an update before going to sleep tonight and wake up with systemd in charge tomorrow morning.

If you use Ubuntu based Mint you won't see a change until Mint 18 at the earliest. Mint 17 will be based on Ubuntu 14.04 and that will still have Upstart. It's also an LTS release so if you hold out long enough and use it until support ends you're good for another 5 years without systemd.

the transition in debian testing didn't happened in instant. it will take long time until sysvinit fully got replaced by systemd. testing will be freezed in the end of this year. I suppose the transititon will be happened on next cycle. that's quite long time. I've also heard that mint is considering to use only LTS for mint's base. if it's true at least we'll have two years without systemd on every mint release

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Re: Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby altair4 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:57 am

asbesto wrote:Ah! nice to know :) but I remember manually discovering network printers via CUPS on a system without avahi-stuff... or I'm wrong?

With cups-browsed there is no manual discovery or configuration ( although I would suggest you set options anyway ) for these classes of printers - it's automatic. Immediately after installing Linux these printers will be available to access from any application.
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Re: Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby clfarron4 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:21 pm

asbesto wrote:So I hope Linux Mint will stay FREE of this madness called systemd! :)


Just what is it that you don't like about systemd?

I've been using systemd on ArchLinux since it happened (and even did the init => systemd conversion successfully on one machine instead of reinstalling). The biggest changes that I notice are that everything is services (I mean everything is services) and you get parallelism of services off-the-bat, which is in a way better than init or upstart. Oh, detection of removable devices like USB sticks, phones and internet with USB tethering works so much better than with init in my experience.
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Re: Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby xenopeek » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:17 pm

+1 to what clfarron4 wrote. I also migrated to systemd on my Arch Linux install and it went without a hitch. It works for me :wink:

Clem already had LMDE up and running with systemd earlier this month, though that was just to experiment. When one of the package bases makes a change like this, and the change makes sense--as systemd does--then you should expect Linux Mint to follow. When changes are made that don't make sense you may expect Linux Mint to look for alternatives (like MATE and Cinnamon). But as already said, Linux Mint 17 won't have systemd as a default so if you really want to stick with Upstart for some reason then you can for the next 5 years with that.

Over on the Gentoo wiki there is a nice comparission of 5 init systems: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Talk:Compa ... it_systems. I see only reasons to get away from SysV and Upstart, and move to systemd.
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Re: Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby altair4 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:01 pm

Besides, if you are using the current version of Mint ( Mint16 ) or even Ubuntu ( 13.10 ) you are already using it - OK, not all of it but parts of it are already being used. Do a:

Code: Select all

dpkg -l |grep systemd

Canonical was outflanked.
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Re: Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby jgmiller » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:27 pm

asbesto wrote:Ah! nice to know :) but I remember manually discovering network printers via CUPS on a system without avahi-stuff... or I'm wrong?


Maybe that was when CUPS supported SLP but SLP support has been removed for some reason from the Ubuntu at least CUPS build and probably from the source version since the switch to separate cups-browsed architecture, even though HP have SLP support in many recent printers.

Read more about SLP at <http://www.openslp.ORG/>

Service Location Protocol

Service Location Protocol (SLP) is an Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) standards track protocol that provides a framework to allow networking applications to discover the existence, location, and configuration of networked services in enterprise networks.

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Re: Linux Mint and systemd? I hope NO!

Postby The Dark Side » Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:18 pm

I also hope that Linux Mint should be kept as far away as possible from systemd. It does not seem a good idea, although many Linux distributions already have passed him. Really, I do not think anything good. Although Manjaro so far it has worked well (and that having systemd), anyway, I do not think it's a good thing. Greetings.
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