Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

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cecilieaux
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Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by cecilieaux » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:53 am

Just opened Software Manager in my spanking brand new Linux Mint 18.3 Sylvia x86_64 and ... wow!!!

It looks different, sleeker, more useful. And lots of eye candy.

(One thing, though, I had to change the menu entry properties to "mintinstall" instead of "gksu mintinstall")

This is great!!! Thank you, oh ye great maintainers, designers, etc. who make Linux Mint possible for perennial n00bs like me.

C

PS: Thanks to Forum managers for moving this to Chat about Mint Editions. Learned something!
Every time I think I'm past newbiedom something like this happens.
Linux Mint 18.3 Sylvia 64-bit

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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by stormryder » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:55 pm

cecilieaux wrote:wow
Wow, it installed wine, notepad, and a bunch of other crap without telling me, just said it was going to "install upgrade" with a simple game. nowhere did it state that it depended on wine.
What's worse is that if I type notepad into both the software manager and synaptic it shows no packages installed and none with the name notepad in them.
I guess that I'll reinstall because who knows what else was installed with that program or what synaptic left behind. I wouldn't have installed it if I had known it needed wine to run.
Worthless, install Progress Quest if you want a bunch of windows junk secretly downloaded to your system.

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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by Pjotr » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:22 pm

@stormryder: if you wish to install something, you can have fine-grained details by using Synaptic. In Synaptic, by selecting Properties - Dependencies, you can check whether it depends on Wine....

While I appreciate what the Mint team has done for mintinstall, I must say I've never really used it except for testing purposes, and probably never will. The combination of Synaptic and apt-get is all I need, because I value the amount of details and fine-tuning they offer me. :mrgreen:

Nevertheless: I can see the importance of mintinstall for beginners. For advanced users: not so much, of course.
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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by JeremyB » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:34 pm

Pjotr wrote:@stormryder: if you wish to install something, you can have fine-grained details by using Synaptic. In Synaptic, by selecting Properties - Dependencies, you can check whether it depends on Wine....

While I appreciate what the Mint team has done for mintinstall, I must say I've never really used it except for testing purposes, and probably never will. The combination of Synaptic and apt-get is all I need, because I value the amount of details and fine-tuning they offer me. :mrgreen:

Nevertheless: I can see the importance of mintinstall for beginners. For advanced users: not so much, of course.
Pjotr, it might be time to find a plan b as Synaptic doesn't work in Ubuntu 17.10 without a workaround. Who knows if it will be fixed for Ubuntu 18.04 which will be the base of Linux Mint 19

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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by Pjotr » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:13 am

JeremyB wrote:Pjotr, it might be time to find a plan b as Synaptic doesn't work in Ubuntu 17.10 without a workaround. Who knows if it will be fixed for Ubuntu 18.04 which will be the base of Linux Mint 19
Yes, that's a bad development.... :(

But what matters most is what the Mint team will do. As mintupdate is built on Synaptic, I think the Mint team might want to fix this. I hope so, anyway.
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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by Cosmo. » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:04 am

Jeremy, can you please describe a little bit what is needed, to make Synaptic run in 17.10? (Regarding plan b: apt on the command line?)

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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by Pjotr » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:08 am

Cosmo. wrote:Jeremy, can you please describe a little bit what is needed, to make Synaptic run in 17.10? (Regarding plan b: apt on the command line?)
A lot:
https://askubuntu.com/questions/961967/ ... ork-with-w

It's nasty. My guess is, that the Mint team will probably opt for xorg as default.
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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by JeremyB » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:10 am

Hi Cosmo.

https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php ... st13699829

Synaptic won't even load from terminal with synaptic to run without root permissions

Some of the errors can be seen at https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php ... ptic+17.10

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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by Cosmo. » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:17 am

Thanks to both of you. After a quick look at it it seems, that Wayland gives the culprit. As far as I have read Clem's comments about Wayland he doesn't seem to go to Wayland, so it possibly does not affect Mint 19 (fingers crossed); that besides the question, how Ubuntu goes forward with this in 18.04.

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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by Pjotr » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:23 am

Yes. The downside of staying with xorg is of course, that it's really old software with thousands of patches, who aren't always consistent. A bewildering maze of code, which doesn't meet modern quality standards anymore.

So in itself, it's about time that a fresh new replacement arrives.... But one that does allow for easy use of graphical applications like Synaptic with root permissions.
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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by stormryder » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:01 pm

Pjotr wrote:if you wish to install something, you can have fine-grained details by using Synaptic. In Synaptic, by selecting Properties - Dependencies, you can check whether it depends on Wine
Thanks Pjotr, I do use synaptic quite extensively, but I sometimes browse through the games section of the software manager.
Preferences aside, the software manager does, as it should, show the user what dependencies are going to be installed but in this particular case the only thing listed was the word "upgrade". I don't know if this is the fault of the maintainer for failing to provide a real list of dependencies in a manifest type file or what but the failure to inform the user of the installation of something like wine as a dependency is a bit too lax for me.
Pjotr wrote:I must say I've never really used it except for testing purposes, and probably never will. The combination of Synaptic and apt-get is all I need, because I value the amount of details and fine-tuning they offer me.
That's likely the case for the developers too. I sometimes think this leads to reduced functionability. They removed the progress bar for ongoing actions so if you don't stay on the page displaying the program you are installing you never know when its finished. It could have been make smaller for sure, but the complete removal really reduced the usefulness of the software manager for me. I probably won't use it at all now.
JeremyB wrote: it might be time to find a plan b as Synaptic doesn't work in Ubuntu 17.10 without a workaround. Who knows if it will be fixed for Ubuntu 18.04 which will be the base of Linux Mint 19
Well I hope they get that figured out, that's like a house with no kitchen sink. "Whadya mean not practical? You can still get hot and cold running water from the bathroom sink and the shower."

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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by Pjotr » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:10 pm

stormryder wrote:
JeremyB wrote: it might be time to find a plan b as Synaptic doesn't work in Ubuntu 17.10 without a workaround. Who knows if it will be fixed for Ubuntu 18.04 which will be the base of Linux Mint 19
Well I hope they get that figured out
They probably will. :)

Ubuntu has been known to chase the occasional butterfly. But the Mint dev team has consistently shown to have a firm practical view on desktop computing, with an eye for the wants of their users, who predominantly just want an operating system that works like they're used to.

I must say that I'm a bit put off by the apparent arrogance of the Wayland devs, who (from the looks of it) simply decided that we shouldn't be using graphical applications with root permission anymore. Why on earth not?
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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by JeremyB » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:16 pm

Pjotr wrote:
stormryder wrote:
JeremyB wrote: it might be time to find a plan b as Synaptic doesn't work in Ubuntu 17.10 without a workaround. Who knows if it will be fixed for Ubuntu 18.04 which will be the base of Linux Mint 19
Well I hope they get that figured out
They probably will. :)

Ubuntu has been known to chase the occasional butterfly. But the Mint dev team has consistently shown to have a firm practical view on desktop computing, with an eye for the wants of their users, who predominantly just want an operating system that works like they're used to.

I must say that I'm a bit put off by the apparent arrogance of the Wayland devs, who (from the looks of it) simply decided that we shouldn't be using graphical applications with root permission anymore. Why on earth not?
Actually I think it is a flaw in Synaptic, you shouldn't need elevated permissions just to use the program, just to install/remove programs. Have you ever looked at the properties for a package in synaptic and tried to visit the homepage? It only works for me if I use terminal witj synaptic as I think Synaptic normally tries to use the homepage link opening the browser with elevated permissions. The program packagekit is similar to Synaptic but works fine in 17.10 but it only asks for password before changes are made

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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by Cosmo. » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:06 am

My experience is a little bit different. If I click in synaptic the link for the homepage for a given package and I have my browser already open (what I usually have), the link opens in this FF-window (Using FF ESR, so that any window has only one process.). If I have FF closed at the time I click the homepage link there is a tremendous delay, before anything happens until FF opens with this page, but I still see no FF process in the ownership of root, but the FF process belongs to my account (as it should).
Interestingly: If I open the software sources from synaptic it does so without asking for the password (and without delay). But if i open the software sources from the update manager, the password get required at first.
So I conclude, that synaptic does the call for the browser and for software sources on a little bit different way.

If Synaptic would be set to require the password only for actions (install, remove), there would be the need to make the requirement for the password also on a number of other actions in synaptic, like to force versions or to open the preferences. The other question is, how often launches the average user synaptic without the intention to install or remove anything? So the password entry is needed in any case. I admit, that regular helpers might more often open synaptic to find information about a package, which a questioner ask about and which is unknown to the helper. But regular helpers do much, what the average user never or very seldom does.

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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by JosephM » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:13 pm

I must say that I'm a bit put off by the apparent arrogance of the Wayland devs, who (from the looks of it) simply decided that we shouldn't be using graphical applications with root permission anymore. Why on earth not?
Now I'll be the first to admit to not being an expert on how all the underlying stuff works. I do know this decision has nothing to do with arrogance and everything to do with security. One of the biggest selling points of Wayland is that it is far more secure than X.
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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by Pjotr » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:07 pm

JosephM wrote:
I must say that I'm a bit put off by the apparent arrogance of the Wayland devs, who (from the looks of it) simply decided that we shouldn't be using graphical applications with root permission anymore. Why on earth not?
Now I'll be the first to admit to not being an expert on how all the underlying stuff works. I do know this decision has nothing to do with arrogance and everything to do with security. One of the biggest selling points of Wayland is that it is far more secure than X.
Well, why is it so much more secure to stop us using GParted and Synaptic, to name just a few? This decision has broken userland.... Linus Torvalds would probably say: this isn't conforming to the principle of "Do No Harm". :(
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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by JosephM » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:19 pm

Pjotr wrote:
JosephM wrote:
I must say that I'm a bit put off by the apparent arrogance of the Wayland devs, who (from the looks of it) simply decided that we shouldn't be using graphical applications with root permission anymore. Why on earth not?
Now I'll be the first to admit to not being an expert on how all the underlying stuff works. I do know this decision has nothing to do with arrogance and everything to do with security. One of the biggest selling points of Wayland is that it is far more secure than X.
Well, why is it so much more secure to stop us using GParted and Synaptic, to name just a few? This decision has broken userland.... Linus Torvalds would probably say: this isn't conforming to the principle of "Do No Harm". :(
These applications just need to be adapted to run a bit differently. Here is a bit of info directly from one of the developers of gtk: https://bugzilla.gnome.org//show_bug.cgi?id=772875#c5
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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by Pjotr » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:01 pm

JosephM wrote:
Pjotr wrote:Well, why is it so much more secure to stop us using GParted and Synaptic, to name just a few? This decision has broken userland.... Linus Torvalds would probably say: this isn't conforming to the principle of "Do No Harm". :(
These applications just need to be adapted to run a bit differently. Here is a bit of info directly from one of the developers of gtk: https://bugzilla.gnome.org//show_bug.cgi?id=772875#c5
Thanks for that useful link. :)

I understand the reasoning now, and I admit, it does sound reasonable. However, I'm still not convinced that these two widely used applications (Synaptic and GParted) pose such a risk in real life as is being suggested in theory by that dev.

So all the more reason for me to be concerned: will those two actually be rewritten in that sense? Or will we be forced to live with severely crippled functionality (broken userland)?
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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by Portreve » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:28 pm

Reading the list postings really made me laugh. I like that Emmanuele Bassi, whomever he/she is.

I know that, I think it was started with LM 18.0 (someone correct me if I'm wrong) clem, et al, put out their own replacements like Xed, etc., and so I'm wondering if they or others, given Wayland's nature, might not just start working on GParted and other such programs. I'm not suggesting it would be a simple five minute project, but obviously if Wayland is going to be basically the future, someone's going to have to do it.

I'd like to think I am savvy enough to understand that at least up to this point, generally if one authorizes a program for elevated privs, one authorizes the *whole* program. Honestly, I like the idea of further compartmentalizing a program and saying, "Only bits which require escalated privileges will get them, and the rest of the code runs as user". Whether this is one single section of a program, or perhaps multiple independent parts, my hope is there is a best-practices approach to be found, and once it is mooted (if it hasn't been already) the entire GNU+Linux dev community will move to it and stick to it.

Clearly, Wayland will give them little choice in the matter where Wayland-using distros are concerned. Having to step out to external means surely won't be tolerated indefinitely, so perhaps the sooner the dev community hashes this out and agrees on it and starts coding towards that standard, the better.
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Re: Software Manager in 18.3 ... Wowzers!!!

Post by minitux » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:11 am

The problem on ubuntu 17.10 is solved with a workaround, I have setting in startup applications this, for Synaptic, Gparted, Software Sources
xhost + SI: localuser: root

and this for Nautilus and Gedit , because gksu is not longer supported, and the package nautilus-admin provides support for pkexec
sudo apt install nautilus-admin
And I run Gedit as root with

Code: Select all

pkexec gedit /path/of/file
and Nautilus with

Code: Select all

pkexec nautilus /
With nautilus I received an initial error, the lack of the file "/root/.gtk-bookmarks" , so I created it

Code: Select all

sudo touch /root/.gtk-bookmarks
In conclusion, given the problems with wayland, Mint developers can not just keep only the Xorg session? And not the wayland session in the new release 19?

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