Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

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spider2097
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by spider2097 »

proxima_centauri wrote:Ubuntu has been developing many user-level improvements beyond the vanilla Debian GNOME experience, such as hardware drivers utility, startup disk creator, notification area and indicator applet for instance. If you switch bases, it means you lose the improvements that Ubuntu has brought to the table. Of course not everybody appreciates Ubuntu's contributions, but I think it's easier to use a base where you can pick and choose enhancements, rather than start from scratch.

The advantage to using Debian testing as a base is the continual rolling release philosophy, as opposed to Ubuntu's 6 month major release schedule - since major dist-upgrades have been under scrutiny for causing problems (part of the reason Mint advocates the mintBackup + fresh install method -- although I think Ubuntu is making strides to improve the upgrade procedure).
I see that. My argument is based around the user experience of Mint as the editions currently stand. There seems to be a huge amount of discussion in the forums recently about people talking about moving away or stopping using Mint if it switches to a solely Debian base (or doesn't move away from Ubuntu (people are confusing! :lol:)). If people like Mint then surely that's what's important :?: Isn't that what the Mint Team bring to the table? To claim that you (or newcomers) are not going to use Mint because of the base is churlish IMO. If people don't like the Mint experience then I'm OK with that - after all, it's down to personal choice and the wonderful world of Linux means that there's bound to be a distro out there that caters to someone's personal requirement. Obviously, something may happen that stops me enjoying using Mint - that would be a sad day for me - but my decision is going to be made after using the latest version & finding that out, not because I read something I disagree with or don't necessarily understand.

Personally, i'd like to see a version of Mint based on Knoppix :twisted: :lol: :wink:
Jix
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by Jix »

proxima_centauri wrote:Linux Mint Debian Edition uses GNOME and has a Debian base; Linux Mint Main Edition uses GNOME and has an Ubuntu base.
Heh, see how us newbs know the difference? As long as it has Mint Menu, Open as Root, all the codecs and compiz with all the extras, we'll be happy.
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proxima_centauri
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by proxima_centauri »

spider2097 wrote:I see that. My argument is based around the user experience of Mint as the editions currently stand...If people like Mint then surely that's what's important :?: Isn't that what the Mint Team bring to the table? To claim that you (or newcomers) are not going to use Mint because of the base is churlish IMO.
Sure, but using Debian or Ubuntu as a base each come with their own advantages and disadvantages, and from a developing standpoint - it's not a trivial switch. But I can see I got distracted from your point, that as long as the end product is satisfactory - the base is of little relevance to the "newcomer".
spider2097
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by spider2097 »

proxima_centauri wrote:Sure, but using Debian or Ubuntu as a base each come with their own advantages and disadvantages, and from a developing standpoint - it's not a trivial switch. But I can see I got distracted from your point, that as long as the end product is satisfactory - the base is of little relevance to the "newcomer".
BTW, when I used "To claim that you (or newcomers) are not going to use Mint because of the base is churlish IMO." in my previous post, I wasn't aiming that comment at yourself proxima_centauri :oops:

That's what I was getting at. I understand that developers & coders would indeed have a strong preference and this is why I started with "It depends on the reasons for choosing an OS....". I didn't mean to suggest that switching the base was trivial. I do like the fact that people come to the forums & are able to discuss the OS - and maybe influence the direction the devs take - but some of the postings recently would have you believe there's a huge crisis & that Mint is headed for meltdown due to the choice of base system. Provided the Mint Team keep doing their excellent work, I'll be happy :D

I still want a Mint version of Knoppix though :twisted: :lol:
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by M_onkeyman »

Would it work if Mint was based on Debian while select packages from Ubuntu be repackaged and be available through the Mint repos? Seems like the best of both worlds to me
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by jeffreyC »

@spider2097

Knoppix is over 90% Debian
You could probably add the rest yourself.
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henrydubb
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by henrydubb »

jesica wrote:the more people using the LMDE the quicker the switch will be

I have tried LMDE but i still don't like it, it still needs one or two fixes then I will switch
3500 to 400 says a lot.

While LMDE is certainly in no position to replace Main, I certainly believe energy could be spent on it in contrast to LXDE, XFCE Ubuntu editions. Notice XFCE has a Debian RC that makes perfect sense to me.

I think Linux Mint is at a crossroads of sorts. It could grow intensely with Gnome Shell and Unity miscalculations. Going straight Debian would be like shooting Mint in the foot so to speak.
spider2097
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by spider2097 »

henrydubb wrote: I think Linux Mint is at a crossroads of sorts. It could grow intensely with Gnome Shell and Unity miscalculations. Going straight Debian would be like shooting Mint in the foot so to speak.
Perhaps I'm missing something here. Whilst the main (pun not intended :oops: ) focus of the Mint Team is undoubtedly the Ubuntu-based main edition, I'm sure they're also working towards ironing out the rough edges of the Debian-based Gnome (and other desktop) editions. Without really having an extensive play with LMDE and trying a direct comparison, I can't say I've seen a huge amount of difference apart from the lack of some of the software & utilities from LM10. I would imagine that if the team could get those working in LMDE, then having the main focus on an Ubuntu based or the Debian based would only depend on which the team felt most comfortable with. After all, proxima_centauri has already pointed this out :
proxima_centauri wrote:Sure, but using Debian or Ubuntu as a base each come with their own advantages and disadvantages, and from a developing standpoint - it's not a trivial switch.
I still stand by my assertion that as long as the Mint team keep to their vision & produce an OS of high quality then Mint will continue to thrive :D
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by insertnikname »

hoshi411 wrote:Personally, I came to Linux because of all the trendy hype that it was a user friendly ubuntu. If it's not ubuntu anymore I think youre gonna lose a lot if noobies jumping on the band wagon.
Since I've never heard of debian, if mint should switch to it, this is going to cause me to give straight ubntu another look.
Good luck with that. Compared to ubuntu 10.10, Mint 10 ... is a work of art. Debian is one of the oldest and most renown linux distro's around. Ubuntu itself is a derivative of Debian. From what I've been reading an ungrateful and selfish derivative too.

You haven't heard of Debian, cause ubuntu seems to like distancing itself from it. And not giving credit where due. At least that's my findings so far. Ubuntu supposedly going so far as to distance itself from linux overall.

Which would be sickeningly ungrateful of them. Trying to figure out the pro's and cons of going from Mint 10. ( < based on ubuntu ) over to LMDE ( based on Debian ). Haven't quite made up my mind yet. But much prefer the idea of a distro directly working with Debian. Over an ungrateful derivative like ubuntu.

If you've heard of ubuntu, yet haven't Debian. Then that tell's me something is wrong with the attitude of the developers behind ubuntu in the 1st place. Just my newb opinion. But a combination like the people behind the development of Mint ( extremely user friendly linux ), on top of the renown stability of a distro like Debian is famous for. Looks pretty darn good to me.

Esp considering ubuntu's evident lack of respect for the hand that's fed them. ( sheesh, the hand that continues to feed them ... aka: Debian Linux )

Just stuck on the don't fix it, if it's not broken cliche. Mint 10 is installed in dual boot and working great. Then the whole having to work around to find more recent addition applications for LMDE thing. Or the poss that the Mint developers haven't devoted as much effort to drivers or making LMDE as user friendly as the version based on ubuntu ?

Either way, just my newb ( more or less totally valueless opinion on it, lol. ) But would rather see Mint collaborate with Debian, than with ubuntu developers. Which seem to be forgetting their roots. Who knows what crazy notion they'll catch in the future. Ubuntu seems to be getting pretty full of themselves with their successes.

Loosing sight of the fact that all of they're successes could never have been poss without the generous people behind gnu/linux and Debian linux in particular.

10.10 default layout was painful to use. Seems like the ubuntu developers went out of their way to be arrogant and show the world they weren't windows. Controls reversed, bars running along the top of the screen by default. Was horrid, almost had me ready to go crawling back to M$. Before I reinstalled Mint 10 and it saved the day for me.
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by jeffreyC »

74 % of Ubuntu is unaltered Debian packages.

63 % of all Linux distros are Debian derivatives.

Ubuntu has brought new people to Linux, but when you outgrow it Debian will still be there.
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spider2097
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by spider2097 »

insertnikname wrote:You haven't heard of Debian, cause ubuntu seems to like distancing itself from it. And not giving credit where due. At least that's my findings so far. Ubuntu supposedly going so far as to distance itself from linux overall.

Which would be sickeningly ungrateful of them. Trying to figure out the pro's and cons of going from Mint 10. ( < based on ubuntu ) over to LMDE ( based on Debian ). Haven't quite made up my mind yet. But much prefer the idea of a distro directly working with Debian. Over an ungrateful derivative like ubuntu.
.........
insertnikname wrote:Esp considering ubuntu's evident lack of respect for the hand that's fed them. ( sheesh, the hand that continues to feed them ... aka: Debian Linux )

Just stuck on the don't fix it, if it's not broken cliche. Mint 10 is installed in dual boot and working great. Then the whole having to work around to find more recent addition applications for LMDE thing. Or the poss that the Mint developers haven't devoted as much effort to drivers or making LMDE as user friendly as the version based on ubuntu ?
Ubuntu (or, should this be Canonical?) does seem to be exhibiting more & more unilateral behaviour with regards to it's own particular vision and where it wants to go. From reading various Linux blogs & websites, it would seem that this is not just limited to not recognising lineage (ie : that Ubuntu originally was derived from Debian) but also the current discussion about Unity/Gnome Shell. It is arguable that Ubuntu is far enough removed from Debian now that constantly referring it's beginnings (with Debian) would be a bit like Windows 7 constantly referring back to DOS :?: (well, maybe not that far removed :lol: ) I'm finding it tricky to follow all the twists & turns in the current Unity v Gnome debate but it is intriguing. I'm guessing that a knock-on effect of all the debate is the delay in concrete plans able to be formulated or announced as to the future direction of Mint. I read somewhere on the Mint site (I apologise but I can't recall exactly where) that there are upstream issues affecting the teams plans for future Main editions - however having used Linux Mint since the edition named Gloria, I feel confident that the Mint Team will continue to push forward with their own vision to create elegant editions :D
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by insertnikname »

I'm not exactly qualified, since am not a developer.

I don't know what really goes on with the backend or upstream or whatever the awesome developers behind good linux distro's have always had to deal with. Im sure it's a drawn out and aggravating process. I'm just fortunate enough, they share their work with the world.

So Im going off research and scuttlebutt from various sources.

I mean seems like ubuntu's been declared a linux distro in it's own right. But assuming the guy above up there is correct. Have no reason to disbelieve his figures that 74% of ubuntu is unchanged Debian code. Then think some of the things they seem to be doing could rightfully be considered arrogant, selfish and ungrateful, shrugs.

Same as you though, seems like the Mint team aren't being dissuaded from carrying on with Mint. Which I surely hope continues to go smooth for them. Mint 10 is sweet, was a real pleasure to see a linux distro so user friendly. Really limited experience with anything outside of M$. Had no problem navigating their default layout. It's self explanatory ... and plan on trying to convert others to it as well.

To me, think LMDE almost indicates they don't want to be over reliant on whatever "vision" the people over at ubuntu central decide on. And going back, direct to the source with Debian ... Makes perfect sense. Exciting to think of what they'll turn out with Debian in the mix. Sounds like it could be a linux distro that finally does to M$ in the personal computing arena. What Linux long since did to closed source software in the server arena.

Would be a glorious day ! Got my fingers crossed to live to see the day.


:D
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by aljoriz »

I'm kinda confused. I know that Ubuntu was made to address delay of Debian's release and they did made a very stable and user-friendly system. Mint did more by adding proprietary stuff like codecs and no ubuntu was to install Unity that may end up using proprietary drivers.

Debian is rarley user friendly and updates may end up breaking stuff.

I did try LMDE but I ended up appreciating the beauty of Linux Mint 9 :mrgreen:
Last edited by aljoriz on Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by thefish »

Hi there,

There is my first post to these forums. I am a former Ubuntu users who switched to LMDE. I did this for a couple of reasons.

1) I like the fact that LMDE is based on Debian (a “primary” distro) as opposed to being based on Ubuntu which is itself a derivative of Debian. I didn't like the idea of running a derivative of a derivative.

2) I like the idea of a “rolling release”. I like the idea of getting the latest packages in a reasonably timely manner and upgrading my distro in a more “organic” way. I was getting tired of re-installing my OS every six months just to stay current and finding a good number of things broken.

3) I didn't like the idea that Ubuntu was ditching the Gnome shell and switching to Unity in the next release.

To be fair I have never tried the Ubuntu-based versions of Mint. But I can tell you that I am very happy with the Debian-based version.

The Fish
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by AlbertP »

About 2, I sometimes like to have a fresh install when I feel I've fiddled too much with it. And I also want to change my partitions, because of the lack of logical partitions and the unhappy position of the (primary!) /boot partition, I can't fill up my 10GB free space which I really need for Linux.

Every time I want to change many things to my system, I prefer a re-install. That's what I don't like about Vista: the hours spent by reinstalling the system and the numerous drivers.
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by sgosnell »

Well, there is nothing that would prevent you from doing a fresh install of LMDE, or of Debian. Being a rolling release just means that you don't have to reinstall at every update, not that you can't.
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by Robin »

I'm very curious to know about installation. Ubuntu's Ubiquity installer (also used in most editions of Linux Mint) is superbly simple. A heckuvalot easier than the Debian installer (at least last time I used the Debian installer, on Crunchbang Statler months ago now).

It's all open source, ain't it? Why don't more "Debian based" distros use that awesome installer/partitioner? It's superb! Why make it unnecessarily difficult when anyone - at least I think anyone - can use Ubiquity with ease? It seems to me that LMDE and the new Xfce Mint have lots more installation issues than their older Ubuntu-based siblings.

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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by nunol »

The Mint Debian installer it's not the same as you find in Debian or on the older Crunchbang alfa (I don't know about the current because I just upgraded).

Just try the Mint Debian installer in Virtualbox, check a youtube video or read a review: http://desktoplinuxreviews.com/2010/09/ ... -9-debian/
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Re: Will Linux Mint now be Debian not Ubuntu?

Post by thefish »

AlbertP wrote:About 2, I sometimes like to have a fresh install when I feel I've fiddled too much with it.
Hi AlbertP. I agree, I like to do a fresh re-install sometimes too. But I don't like being forced to do a re-install every 6 months. Maybe it wasn't even the re-install so much as I felt some of the "improvements" that came with each release were of debatable value. For example the "dark" look of the Ubuntu 10.x series I was not fond of at all. I didn't consider it an improvement over the previous 9.10 release whatsoever. I also wasn't crazy about the ditching of Gnome for Unity and I figured it was time to try something else.

I know someone will probably tell me I could stick with an LTS release but no one likes sticking with an out-of-date release when something newer is on the shelf and 10.04 actually gave me more problems then any other release (I started with 8.10 and ended with 10.10). I like the idea of getting new packages as they come out (understanding there will be some delay) without any kind of "line in the sand" between releases. I like keeping the same install as long as I want and upgrading in an organic way.

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The Fish
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