Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:31 pm
Those are names of failed OS projects and have nothing to do with my question. Anyway, I was only mildly curious, nevermind.
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Those are names of failed OS projects and have nothing to do with my question. Anyway, I was only mildly curious, nevermind.
You are making my point for me. The whole Linux/BSD/free open source software movement is essentially stagnant and just keeps trying to keep up with Windows, following where Windows leads and trying to be as Windows-like (or, here and there, as mac-like) as possible, leaving Windows to innovate instead of innovating itself.Moem wrote: ⤴Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:28 pmI think it's fine to make a distro such as the one you're describing... but it should not be Mint. We all know Mint is not perfect. But it has an established user base, it is aimed at a certain group of users. Many of these users like that it feels like Windows in many ways, yet they all have reasons* not to want to use Windows.
Personally, I want a distro that I can use comfortably and easily, and that my mother (who is 80 years old, is smart but not techy, and has been using Windows for 20 years) can use comfortably and easily too... and since we're on the same distro, I can help her out now and then. I want it to be stable and conservative, not bleeding edge. I don't care about innovative and 'different'. If Mint were to change in the ways you are describing, it would no longer be for me. And the current audience would most likely leave in droves. Remember what happened to Ubuntu when it cooked up Unity? Mint happened, that's what.
It's fine if people do want a distro to be innovative and stand out. But Mint is not that distro. Let's face it, you seem to have picked about the least suitable distro for this! Have you looked at Arch?
Also, why don't you start your own team of five to six developers, and build it yourself? Go ahead, push that envelope... yourself, instead of telling others what to do.
* Free of charge, lower installation requirements, okay... but also: stability, no forced updates, more flexibility, no telemetry... to name but a few.
Exactly. And do. for Solus.
You can't promote yourself as the thing if you're not actually the thing, so Mint would first have to become the thing. And that thing happens to be not what Mint was made to be. So the team would have to switch goals. I simply don't think that is very likely to happen.
The other ones are equally valid to me, and I'm the person who decides which distro I use. You do not have to agree with them, but they are my reasons and you did not 'demolish' them even a little bit.
Sure. And all I did was tell you why I do not believe that your suggestions are a good match for Mint. You are free to tell us your opinions, and it's pretty normal that you'll get other people's opinions in return. Was that unexpected? If so, then what did you expect?
Sure, starting with a blank slate would always be the ideal. But then you might as well go the whole hog and start over from scratch - completely new OS, kernel and all, in fact, a hypervisor-based OS. Whether any such undertaking would be feasible or even sensible in a free/open source environment is highly debatable, even questionable. If I had the time and health (not to mention the financial wherewithal to sustain my family during the initial period!), I might even be tempted to make a start on something myself. Leadership's never been a problem here, nor vision and ability to motivate and inspire others to aspire to greater things.majpooper wrote: ⤴Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:49 pmI like your enthusiasm and think you ought to "go for it" your ideas are good ones. However you missed the starting point - Mint as the vehicle is off the mark IMHO. What you are really suggesting is a new innovative distro that needs to start with a blank slate not Mint ala Ubuntu ala Debian, why bring all that baggage along? The real challenge is how to build the team to accomplish what you suggest - who is the visionary, motivator, leader - the Steve Jobs - that can make that happen? Maybe it's you.
No, the prevailing attitudes here are not lost on me. I've "lurked" around for quite a while to get that.majpooper wrote: ⤴Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:49 pmthenextguy wrote: ⤴Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:38 pmYou want Windows-like commands and menus - fine, so why not just stick with Windows? That's just the whole point of my post - all Linux distros have become so Windows-like, there's very little, at least on the surface, to distinguish them from one another or from Windows. What's the point in being a Windows clone when you could be your own magnificent self?It's not your concept I disagree with it innovative even exciting - I think you miss the point of Mint and the sentiment of Mint users specifically. Mint users for the most part do like Windows, OK there are a few who are like "oh, Windows is a good OS just like linux - they both have an important role to play Photoshop, blah blah blah." Just check out this forum and see what the prevailing attitude is concerning Windows and I think your question "why not just stick with Windows?" will become clear. To but a finer point on it, the typical Mint user thinks Windows sucks and their hassles with Windows is what drove them to linux and then to settle in on Mint. They came to linux because they wanted ". . . something better, more innovative, and far easier to use and set up than Windows..." and found exactly that with Mint, not to mention stability, performance, privacy and security improvements. I certainly cannot speak for the entire Mint community however I would suggest again perusing this forum you would come to the conclusion that Mint users would not agree with the perception in terms of linux that ". . .there's very little, at least on the surface, to distinguish [linux distro] . . from one another or from Windows."thenextguy wrote: ⤴Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:38 pmBut the Linux movement, in a mad rush to try and gain more widespread acceptance went about it the wrong way by aiming to become Windows clones, instead of innovating right there and then and coming up with something better, more innovative, and far easier to use and set up than Windows,
More or less the entire Workspace Manager. The dock, which also tracked running apps and document windows and showed the icons of running apps that were not docked and minimised doc windows along the bottom of the screen, was simply turned into the Windows Taskbar and Startmenu, i.e., just changing the metaphor slightly, the appearance. (And of course adding the System Tray, and later the QuickStart bar. They left out stripping off app menus and changed the Workspace metaphor for a Desktop one that could display icons without the use of a dock. And they also left out the FileViewer, plus the other utils of the WM like the Inspector etc.absque fenestris wrote: ⤴Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:36 pmSomehow I have never seen NeXTSTEP and MS Windows in any connection. What should Microsoft have copied from NeXTSTEP?thenextguy wrote: ⤴Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:01 pm... Windows, whose new UI was itself a clone of the NeXTSTEP UI. (Microsoft reverse-engineered it, changed things around a bit so it no longer quite looked like NeXT and added about tuppence worth of stuff... ...
...And no, The GIMP isn't bad, but it's a nightmare to use and most importantly it just cannot stand scrutiny against serious Windows apps like Photoshop, unfortunately...
Yes, I find The GIMP a nightmare to use. And e.g. its text utils are abysmal. In no way could one use GIMP or any of the other GFX apps professionally. And yes, I agree with you, PS is a nightmare in many ways (not least for Adobe having killed off/taken over just about all its competitors and not even made use of some of the excellent features that some offered that still stand out to this day!), but alas, it's the "industry standard", vastly over-priced too. One of my favourite GFX apps ever was Caffeein's 'TIFFany.app' under NeXTSTEP and OPENSTEP Enterprise for Windows NT 4 - they did port to MacOS X, but not sure what happened to that afterwards - probably also destroyed by Adobe. :/absque fenestris wrote: ⤴Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:36 pmGIMP a nightmare? I like it, and also Krita and Scribus and Inkscape... and because Debian/Ubuntu/Mint is a bit lame, I use the latest versions under - ...the other OS. Mint users: feel free to crucify me...
If we are talking about nightmares, then PhotoShop & Co. is a good example of how a company can destroy good programs in a targeted and deliberate way.
Thanks for your interest, but at this point, it was really nothing more than a mere suggestion for how Mint could promote itself through innovation (eventually, once such a stable wm and desktop had been produced, i.e., not included in the distro until stable).
Thank you once again, jimallyn. I do run several Linux versions (and a BSD one) in VBs with Window's Hyper-V. I have Mint Mate and LMDE, plus another distro and BSD on my main machine, plus Mint Mate and another distro, also in HV VMs, on my laptop, and I also use a Live USB stick with Tails Live for most of my online activity - it's portable, anonymous/private, and simple to use on any of my computers and anywhere else. Plus, I've been an on and off (nowadays more on than off) Linux (and *BSD) user for over 20 years and other Unixes (NextSTEP, SunOS/Solaris, Irix.. even longer. Plus I used (and set up, manually in those days) X Windows servers and window managers under e.g. OS/2 in addition to distros like Slackware in those days, which was probably the hardest but also best distro then.jimallyn wrote: ⤴Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:04 amthenextguy, you might start with playing with various versions of Linux in VirtualBox. In VirtualBox, you can play to your heart's content without having to worry about screwing up your "daily driver." Maybe install one of the lightest version, maybe even one that is command line only, then figure out how to get a desktop on it. There's a book called "Linux From Scratch" that I have heard is quite useful for learning some of the insides of Linux. You can actually download the book:
And then there's Beyond Linux From Scratch, and Automated Linux From Scratch.
LOL! Hehe, that's a great idea - good to do something new, always. The day you stop to learn and do something new you're already on the road to oblivion. Always reach for the stars, for that impossible dream, friend, and you may just get there!
I never expect anything but the unexpected. Of course one gets other people's opinions in return - that's a given and a prerequisite for meaningful discourse.Moem wrote: ⤴Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:04 pmSure. And all I did was tell you why I do not believe that your suggestions are a good match for Mint. You are free to tell us your opinions, and it's pretty normal that you'll get other people's opinions in return. Was that unexpected? If so, then what did you expect?
PS : Forgot to add, MS also 'adopted' - and adapted - the NeXT windows titlebar gadget glyphs.thenextguy wrote: ⤴Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:49 pmMore or less the entire Workspace Manager. The dock, which also tracked running apps and document windows and showed the icons of running apps that were not docked and minimised doc windows along the bottom of the screen, was simply turned into the Windows Taskbar and Startmenu, i.e., just changing the metaphor slightly, the appearance. (And of course adding the System Tray, and later the QuickStart bar. They left out stripping off app menus and changed the Workspace metaphor for a Desktop one that could display icons without the use of a dock. And they also left out the FileViewer, plus the other utils of the WM like the Inspector etc.
got that right, told off more than a few windbags. bleep bleep bleep 1,000 word post for what could of be said in less than 4 sentences. i don't want some long unrelated spiel with the answer i was looking for at the very end if they actually post one.
Why? And please don't answer that...
I had heard of NeXT computer before, but never saw one until I did a websearch for it just now. To me, the UI looks a lot like the WIMP (Windows, icons, menus and pointing device) graphical interface developed at Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) and first used in the Alto computer which was released in 1973. So what exactly is it that everybody is supposed to have copied from the NeXT computer?
exactlyrene wrote: ⤴Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:09 amI quite advise https://www.amazon.com/Barbarians-Bill- ... 0805057544 for an insider account of early Windows development. And no, as far as I remember NeXT does not feature. Classic Macintosh does...
In theory Linux itself is using OOP principles. Debian is the object, Ubuntu inherits from Deb and becomes it's own object, Mint inherits from Ubuntu. Apply that to any other distro and you have OOP principles in action, theoretically.thenextguy wrote: ⤴Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:30 pmHmm, not necessarily failed, more like, abandoned. Anyway, there you'll get a pretty good idea what a proper OO UI is.
Yes, your PARC connection is right - in fact, while still at Apple in about (IIRC) 1979, Jobs led a small team to get insights into the PARC's GUI (this was paid for by Apple, who also purchased a license to use the concept for Lisa and subsequently, the Mac). And what a waste of time and money that was, too - the Mac's OS wasn't really halfway fit for purpose and the GUI so basic it was beyond belief, until about System 6 at the earliest, some would say System 7. Hell, the Amiga that became available only one year after the first Mac - and had been on development from before the Mac - had a far more advanced OS, 32-bit, PMT, etc. etc. and a better GUI implementation too, without any visits to Xerox.jimallyn wrote: ⤴Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:52 amI had heard of NeXT computer before, but never saw one until I did a websearch for it just now. To me, the UI looks a lot like the WIMP (Windows, icons, menus and pointing device) graphical interface developed at Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) and first used in the Alto computer which was released in 1973. So what exactly is it that everybody is supposed to have copied from the NeXT computer?