Page 1 of 3

Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:38 pm
by thenextguy
Best way to promote Mint would be to make it stand out by being way ahead of anything else - an ESM, Extra Strong Mint.

Differentiate Mint from the crowd by being not so Windows-like - think big, think out of the box, think innovation! A completely new WM and desktop would be a good start, including Wayland. A desktop environment that would be totally object oriented with a UI that is easily configurable by the user with a graphical config utility and drag-n-drop.

There's a lot more to this and a lot more where this came from. But this basically sums up how I think Mint can distinguish itself and promote itself by being innovative and different. At present, just about every GNU/Linux / Linux distro is essentially much of a muchness - to a greater or lesser extent, all look alike, pretty much function alike, use the same metaphors.

Think differently! That's my 2 pence/cents' worth.

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:20 pm
by deepakdeshp
Mint is based on Ubuntu which in turn is based on Debian. I don't think it can deviate much from these

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:42 pm
by mediclaser
There's no better way of promoting Mint than having what it has now --> a strong community of users helping each other (especially the beginners).

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:33 am
by thenextguy
deepakdeshp wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:20 pm
Mint is based on Ubuntu which in turn is based on Debian. I don't think it can deviate much from these
Yes, I'm well aware of that. But, nothing is impossible. At least I never accept "impossible" and instead, push the envelope and keep trying. Real innovation never accepts "impossible", too. Steve Jobs, at least in his days with NeXT, never accepted it either, and got his developers to do it anyway.

I'm not saying it would be easy. But then, innovation hardly ever is. Linux and the Linux community as a whole have become far too comfortable and happy with the status quo. Being comfortable - in this sense - leads to complacency and eventually, stagnation. That's how we've ended up with just about every desktop being much like every other and every one being exceedingly Windows-like. And that, I think, is sad.

All desktop OS UIs (and the OSes themselves, come to that) are now well behind what could be achieved with the technology and the processing power, RAM and storage resources available at a cost that is more affordable than it's ever been. The free and open source software movement should and could be a leading force in change and innovation, because it is never subject to the constraints of a monolithic commercial corporation.

A distinctive, innovative new OO UI with completely different, new metaphors and even paradigms would be a good start, IMO. And the best way of promoting a distro by being different and new.

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:59 am
by jimallyn
Welcome to the Mint forums, thenextguy! You've got some good ideas, but some of them you may have to develop yourself at this point. For example, practically none of the major distributions are using Wayland at this point. I think Ubuntu did in 17, but went back to X in 18. There are a number of distros that are known for being bleeding edge and always having the latest stuff, maybe one of those would be better for you. Arch usually has a lot of the latest stuff available. Mint, however, doesn't try to be bleeding edge, it tries to be stable, where everything just works. Do you do any programming or software development? There are a lot of projects out there that could use more developers!

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:50 am
by thenextguy
jimallyn wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:59 am
Welcome to the Mint forums, thenextguy! You've got some good ideas, but some of them you may have to develop yourself at this point. For example, practically none of the major distributions are using Wayland at this point. I think Ubuntu did in 17, but went back to X in 18. There are a number of distros that are known for being bleeding edge and always having the latest stuff, maybe one of those would be better for you. Arch usually has a lot of the latest stuff available. Mint, however, doesn't try to be bleeding edge, it tries to be stable, where everything just works. Do you do any programming or software development? There are a lot of projects out there that could use more developers!
Thanks, jimallyn. Loving it in here already (having lurked for some time before joining), and also am very fond of Mint already - both flavours that I run at present are so much faster than Windows 10 despite being in VMs. They also use so much less resources, and also slightly less resources than Fedora. It's been an amazing journey, Linux has come a long, long way. When I first used Linux (before even using Windows, which I only really took up when NT 4 came along), I quickly got a license to use my NeXTSTEP on PC as well, as well as OS/2. Linux then was a rude shock after working with NeXT, Irix and SunOS.

Yes, Wayland is still very early in its state of development but very promising, and as I understand it can co-exist with X and pass stuff it can't yet handle to X. (I still have to investigate the whole thing much more thoroughly.) I'm aware that the emphasis in Mint is on stability, and that is a good thing of course. But there is always room for an experimental sub-branch that looks forward towards the future. A completely new WM and desktop environment aren't written in a day and wouldn't be anywhere near ready for any sort of public beta even for quite some time, even with a small team of developers and designers as well as project management.

The problem with more experimental/"bleeding edge" distros is, they're far too deeply into what's more or less on their path already to really get involved in anything radically new. A stable platform OTOH can much more easily wait for something new to reach a usable stage, being developed on the sidelines,

I have some limited developing experience, but that was a long time ago under NeXT/Objective C, and Sun and Java, and mainly was concerned with UI design and development inc. graphic design. Ideas have always been my strongest point. But I may well try and start something off under my own steam, if and when I can find the time.

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:59 am
by gm10
thenextguy wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:38 pm
Differentiate Mint from the crowd by being not so Windows-like - think big, think out of the box, think innovation! A completely new WM and desktop would be a good start, including Wayland. A desktop environment that would be totally object oriented with a UI that is easily configurable by the user with a graphical config utility and drag-n-drop.
New WM, new desktop? Sounds like you're looking for a different distro tbh. It's not going to happen, Mint is not going to develop a second desktop environment. You are of course free to install any existing third party WM or desktop environment you want or to create your own.

But I'm still curious about what you even mean with "A desktop environment that would be totally object oriented"?

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:26 am
by AZgl1500
thenextguy wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:38 pm
Best way to promote Mint would be to make it stand out by being way ahead of anything else - an ESM, Extra Strong Mint.

Differentiate Mint from the crowd by being not so Windows-like - think big, think out of the box, think innovation!
IMO,
you have totally missed the point of Mint....
I would not be here period, if not for the ease of transferring to an OS that gives me the ease of "Windows like commands" and menus. I chose 18.3 Cinnamon precisely because it allowed me to be efficient with using my new OS "right now", not ten years from now on a greatly enhanced piece of crap which I would never use.

Mint is purfect as is, a few things can be enhanced, but your view of it will never be applied to it.

Mint's forum was the 2nd Big Reason for me leaving Windows, the support here is superb, far outdistancing any other forum that I have seen, and I have looked at a bunch of them.

I got spit on with my very first help post in a few "support forums" with horrible language thrown at me for wasting their time because I did not research 15 years of their diatribe to find the answer to a problem.

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:01 pm
by thenextguy
AZgl1500 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:26 am
thenextguy wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:38 pm
Differentiate Mint from the crowd by being not so Windows-like - think big, think out of the box, think innovation!
IMO,
you have totally missed the point of Mint....
I would not be here period, if not for the ease of transferring to an OS that gives me the ease of "Windows like commands" and menus. I chose 18.3 Cinnamon precisely because it allowed me to be efficient with using my new OS "right now", not ten years from now on a greatly enhanced piece of crap which I would never use.

Mint is purfect as is, a few things can be enhanced, but your view of it will never be applied to it.
No OS or desktop is ever "perfect", no Linux distro is ever "perfect", and Mint - whatever flavour you pick - is no exception. Mint has some advantages over some other distros, others have/may have some advantages over Mint, but that's as far as it goes.

You want Windows-like commands and menus - fine, so why not just stick with Windows? That's just the whole point of my post - all Linux distros have become so Windows-like, there's very little, at least on the surface, to distinguish them from one another or from Windows. What's the point in being a Windows clone when you could be your own magnificent self?

Linux had to become easier to install and use than it was some 20-odd years ago, no doubt about that, unless Linux wanted to stay a bunch of 'geek' OSes, especially once Windows 95 captured Joe User's imagination. But the Linux movement, in a mad rush to try and gain more widespread acceptance went about it the wrong way by aiming to become Windows clones, instead of innovating right there and then and coming up with something better, more innovative, and far easier to use and set up than Windows, whose new UI was itself a clone of the NeXTSTEP UI. (Microsoft reverse-engineered it, changed things around a bit so it no longer quite looked like NeXT and added about tuppence worth of stuff. Subsequently, they were sued by NeXT, but - Gates and Jobs having been close mates - MS and NeXT reached an out of court settlement quite quickly that made NeXT worth far more than the ailing rotten fruit.)

The only slight advantages that Linux distros have over Windows are that they're free of cost to the user - tiny advantage when you can buy a licensed Windows 10 Enterprise retail edition for well under GBP 30! - and that generally they tend to run somewhat faster and use less reources. (Mint Mate here starts up in a VM in well under 1 Gig!) So, where's the incentive for Joe Average User to switch to a Linux system?

And if he needs serious graphics, CAD/CAM or music apps, he's stuck anyway. (And no, The GIMP isn't bad, but it's a nightmare to use and most importantly it just cannot stand scrutiny against serious Windows apps like Photoshop, unfortunately.) Which is why I'll always - or at least, until something better comes along - will always have to use Windows in tandem with Linux.

Oh and BTW, it doesn't - or doesn't and shouldn't have to - take ten years to develop a new WM and desktop environment. A small team of 5 to max. 6 developers could do it in no more than 1 to 2 years. And I mean a stable release version, not a shaky beta.

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:58 pm
by AZgl1500
Why didn't I stay with Windows?

slower than molasses in February booting up, even with a PC full of enhancements, but still with a 5k spinning 1 TB HDD and lots of RAM

slow response to kybd or mouse clicks

Blue Screen of Death occurs too often for me....
that has been years back now, I froze my Win7 in time two years ago, and turned off Updates.
wow! no more Blue Screens. and not one single varmint has crept into my Win7 PC.

My daughter and I were talking about this last night.
It should not matter what OS is under the keyboard.
that PC should do what I want, when I want it, and not get in the way of doing what I want.

She is using Win10, and that thing just updated out of the blue at 11:32 pm, while she was working with ACCESS and did not ask her anything, it just took over, stopped her from working, and rebooted....
that is just NOT acceptable to me or her.
she lucked out, it did not crash, and it returned to where she was.

my 18.3 Cinnamon just hums along, it is set for Automatic Updates in the background.
I quit looking at each one, when it became apparent I was wasting my time.

Timeshift is doing Daily backups.
LuckyBackup runs once a month....

what more could I ask for?
it all just works, and I am happy.
I don't want a super slicked down OS that has to be fine tuned for 13 weeks before it is usable.

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:28 pm
by Moem
I think it's fine to make a distro such as the one you're describing... but it should not be Mint. We all know Mint is not perfect. But it has an established user base, it is aimed at a certain group of users. Many of these users like that it feels like Windows in many ways, yet they all have reasons* not to want to use Windows.

Personally, I want a distro that I can use comfortably and easily, and that my mother (who is 80 years old, is smart but not techy, and has been using Windows for 20 years) can use comfortably and easily too... and since we're on the same distro, I can help her out now and then. I want it to be stable and conservative, not bleeding edge. I don't care about innovative and 'different'. If Mint were to change in the ways you are describing, it would no longer be for me. And the current audience would most likely leave in droves. Remember what happened to Ubuntu when it cooked up Unity? Mint happened, that's what.

It's fine if people do want a distro to be innovative and stand out. But Mint is not that distro. Let's face it, you seem to have picked about the least suitable distro for this! Have you looked at Arch?

Also, why don't you start your own team of five to six developers, and build it yourself? Go ahead, push that envelope... yourself, instead of telling others what to do.

* Free of charge, lower installation requirements, okay... but also: stability, no forced updates, more flexibility, no telemetry... to name but a few.

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:34 pm
by Arch_Enemy
thenextguy wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:38 pm
Best way to promote Mint would be to make it stand out by being way ahead of anything else - an ESM, Extra Strong Mint.

Differentiate Mint from the crowd by being not so Windows-like - think big, think out of the box, think innovation! A completely new WM and desktop would be a good start, including Wayland. A desktop environment that would be totally object oriented with a UI that is easily configurable by the user with a graphical config utility and drag-n-drop.

There's a lot more to this and a lot more where this came from. But this basically sums up how I think Mint can distinguish itself and promote itself by being innovative and different. At present, just about every GNU/Linux / Linux distro is essentially much of a muchness - to a greater or lesser extent, all look alike, pretty much function alike, use the same metaphors.

Think differently! That's my 2 pence/cents' worth.
Already been done! It's called "Arch".

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:29 pm
by rene
Arch_Enemy wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:34 pm
Already been done! It's called "Arch".
Well, no; if there's anything that Arch is not, it's innovative. I'd steer OP to e.g. https://getsol.us/home/

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:49 pm
by majpooper
I like your enthusiasm and think you ought to "go for it" your ideas are good ones. However you missed the starting point - Mint as the vehicle is off the mark IMHO. What you are really suggesting is a new innovative distro that needs to start with a blank slate not Mint ala Ubuntu ala Debian, why bring all that baggage along? The real challenge is how to build the team to accomplish what you suggest - who is the visionary, motivator, leader - the Steve Jobs - that can make that happen? Maybe it's you.
thenextguy wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:38 pm
You want Windows-like commands and menus - fine, so why not just stick with Windows? That's just the whole point of my post - all Linux distros have become so Windows-like, there's very little, at least on the surface, to distinguish them from one another or from Windows. What's the point in being a Windows clone when you could be your own magnificent self?
thenextguy wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:38 pm
But the Linux movement, in a mad rush to try and gain more widespread acceptance went about it the wrong way by aiming to become Windows clones, instead of innovating right there and then and coming up with something better, more innovative, and far easier to use and set up than Windows,
It's not your concept I disagree with it innovative even exciting - I think you miss the point of Mint and the sentiment of Mint users specifically. Mint users for the most part do like Windows, OK there are a few who are like "oh, Windows is a good OS just like linux - they both have an important role to play Photoshop, blah blah blah." Just check out this forum and see what the prevailing attitude is concerning Windows and I think your question "why not just stick with Windows?" will become clear. To but a finer point on it, the typical Mint user thinks Windows sucks and their hassles with Windows is what drove them to linux and then to settle in on Mint. They came to linux because they wanted ". . . something better, more innovative, and far easier to use and set up than Windows..." and found exactly that with Mint, not to mention stability, performance, privacy and security improvements. I certainly cannot speak for the entire Mint community however I would suggest again perusing this forum you would come to the conclusion that Mint users would not agree with the perception in terms of linux that ". . .there's very little, at least on the surface, to distinguish [linux distro] . . from one another or from Windows."

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:36 pm
by absque fenestris
thenextguy wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:01 pm
... Windows, whose new UI was itself a clone of the NeXTSTEP UI. (Microsoft reverse-engineered it, changed things around a bit so it no longer quite looked like NeXT and added about tuppence worth of stuff... ...
...
...And no, The GIMP isn't bad, but it's a nightmare to use and most importantly it just cannot stand scrutiny against serious Windows apps like Photoshop, unfortunately...
Somehow I have never seen NeXTSTEP and MS Windows in any connection. What should Microsoft have copied from NeXTSTEP?

GIMP a nightmare? I like it, and also Krita and Scribus and Inkscape... and because Debian/Ubuntu/Mint is a bit lame, I use the latest versions under - ...the other OS. Mint users: feel free to crucify me...
If we are talking about nightmares, then PhotoShop & Co. is a good example of how a company can destroy good programs in a targeted and deliberate way.

And yes, I would be interested in the fabulously good, innovative new desktop - is there anything more specific there?

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:04 am
by jimallyn
thenextguy, you might start with playing with various versions of Linux in VirtualBox. In VirtualBox, you can play to your heart's content without having to worry about screwing up your "daily driver." Maybe install one of the lightest version, maybe even one that is command line only, then figure out how to get a desktop on it. There's a book called "Linux From Scratch" that I have heard is quite useful for learning some of the insides of Linux. You can actually download the book:

http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

And then there's Beyond Linux From Scratch, and Automated Linux From Scratch.

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:32 am
by jimallyn
Just glanced through the book. You would learn a LOT about Linux going through it. Might have to do my own Linux from scratch when I have time.

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:42 am
by all41
this op wants kali

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:33 am
by Arch_Enemy
rene wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:29 pm
Arch_Enemy wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:34 pm
Already been done! It's called "Arch".
Well, no; if there's anything that Arch is not, it's innovative. I'd steer OP to e.g. https://getsol.us/home/
It's configurable, and you can get just about any package ever developed for Linux to run with a little massaging.

It's also a pain in the :shock: ss, but I digress...

Re: Promote by making Mint an Extra Strong Mint

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:28 pm
by thenextguy
gm10 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:59 am
But I'm still curious about what you even mean with "A desktop environment that would be totally object oriented"?
I suggest you google it sometime, and then 'Pink', 'Taligent', 'Workplace OS'.