Multiple, basic issues with Mint 18

[Evil Tim]

I'm switching my mother from Windows XP to Linux Mint 18. I really, really want this to work for her. I've been a Unix sysadmin/engineer for 20+ years, so I'm not trolling when I say that I think Linux Mint is awful. Maybe the least-worst of the distros, maybe not as bad as Windows 10, but still awful.

• Frequently freezes, on an old-ish laptop with 3GB of RAM. No informative spinner/hourglass, it just freezes until it decides it's finished. Top and system monitor don't show anything hogging resources.
• The installed utilities are supposed to be a curated collection, so you don't have to go looking for the basic tools:
  • I opened a hi-res image with the Image Viewer. It displayed the image, then hung, then rebooted the PC. No error messages. Apart from the fact that a user program shouldn't be able to crash a system, where are the logs for a "normal" user to find?
  • mintbackup uses a tar file, so can't back up more than 4.3 GB. No, the option that's supposed to be there to do a "normal" backup doesn't exist. I wrote an rsync script in less time than I'd spent on reading up on mintbackup.
  • Oh, and Timeshift as a restore tool? How about something that can do backups AND restores? Both data and system?
  • Software Manager + Software Sources + Synaptic Package Manager + Update Manager? Not so much "do one thing and do it well" as "do half a job and do that badly"
  • Screenshot tool that exits after every screenshot, and doesn't remember preferences?
• The start menu is full of stuff a user won't need often, so you have to search/scroll for the useful stuff. Yes, you can do some customisation, but why not start from a clean point?
• Installing packages supposedly tested on Mint is very hit & miss. Sometimes an install hangs, sometimes it fails. Try a slightly different method, and it works.
• The install of Teamviewer on the PC I gave to my mother breaks the update manager. The same packages installed on a lower spec PC that I kept work OK.
• Dreadful documentation, support and "knowledge" on the internet. A million forums and how-to's full of out-of-date, incomplete techno-babble.
• Installs a huge list of "foreign" ttf fonts. No, thank you, I'll install a "language pack" if I want one.
• Disabling Bluetooth was another case in point. After disabling Bluetooth startup, you eventually find that there's something called Blueberry that starts it up anyway. The Blueberry authors declined to provide a checkbox to disable it. The arrogance in their self-congratulatory post about their cleverness was astounding.

Say what you want about my (lack of) skills but, in my experience, no way is Linux usable by end users.
I'm happy to debate this, provide systems specs or logs if you think you can help!

[karlchen]

Hi, Evil Tim.

Thank you for your rant about Linux Mint 18.

I am a bit amazed that you as a long term Unix expert have neglected to provide some basic technical information right away, which would enable us to start analyzing the (technical) problems, which you have encountered:

• The screen output of the terminal command

  Code: Select all

  inxi -Fxz

• The content of your syslog file, /var/log/syslog. Alternatively the uncut output of journalctl -b 0

to start with.

Best regards,
Karl
--
P.S.:
As an IT guy, you are aware that it will be a pretty tough task discussing 12 different issues in a single thread in a structured way?!

[absque fenestris]

Installs a huge list of "foreign" ttf fonts. No, thank you, I'll install a "language pack" if I want one.

That's the only point I totally agree with you.

Otherwise my little device works quite well - even with 2GB of RAM...

[MrEen]

Maybe the least-worst of the distros, maybe not as bad as Windows 10

So Mint is the best? I agree.

[MintBean]

Funny, my 81 year old mother's using it just fine. Hardly noticed the difference from MacOS for web, office and email use.

The bluetooth app here in the Cinnamon version has a great big 'on/off' selector and it works. What version are you using?

[Evil Tim]

Hi Karl - Thank you for reformatting my post and responding. You're right, it was a rant rather than specific questions And, to be honest, I haven't done the troubleshooting as I expected Linux to "just work".

I'll post the specs and logs as soon as possible, and try to isolate the times the issues occurred.

Most of the other points could be regarded as enhancements requests, but I'm amazed that what seems to be basic functionality is still missing in a mature distro.

My, older laptops specs are:

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inxi -Fxz
System:    Host: n100 Kernel: 4.13.0-37-generic x86_64 (64 bit gcc: 5.4.0)
           Desktop: MATE 1.18.0 (Gtk 3.18.9-1ubuntu3.3) Distro: Linux Mint 18.3 Sylvia
Machine:   System: LENOVO product: 0768BXG v: 3000 N100
           Mobo: LENOVO model: CAPELL VALLEY(NAPA) CRB Bios: LENOVO v: 63ET62WW date: 04/30/07
CPU:       Dual core Intel Core2 T5300 (-MCP-) cache: 2048 KB flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 ssse3) bmips: 6916 
           clock speeds: max: 1733 MHz 1: 1333 MHz 2: 800 MHz
Graphics:  Card: Intel Mobile 945GM/GMS 943/940GML Express Integrated Graphics Controller bus-ID: 00:02.0
           Display Server: X.org 1.18.4 drivers: intel (unloaded: fbdev,vesa)
           tty size: 136x41 Advanced Data: N/A for root
Audio:     Card Intel NM10/ICH7 Family High Definition Audio Controller driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 00:1b.0
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture v: k4.13.0-37-generic
Network:   Card-1: Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG [Golan] Network Connection
           driver: iwl3945 v: in-tree:s bus-ID: 03:00.0
           IF: wlp3s0 state: up mac: <filter>
           Card-2: Realtek RTL-8100/8101L/8139 PCI Fast Ethernet Adapter
           driver: 8139too v: 0.9.28 port: 2000 bus-ID: 05:01.0
           IF: enp5s1 state: down mac: <filter>
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 120.0GB (44.5% used) ID-1: /dev/sda model: HITACHI_HTS54161 size: 120.0GB temp: 40C
Partition: ID-1: / size: 108G used: 48G (47%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda1
           ID-2: swap-1 size: 2.14GB used: 0.16GB (8%) fs: swap dev: /dev/sda5
RAID:      No RAID devices: /proc/mdstat, md_mod kernel module present
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 68.0C mobo: N/A
           Fan Speeds (in rpm): cpu: N/A
Info:      Processes: 172 Uptime: 37 days Memory: 1017.2/1985.0MB Init: systemd runlevel: 5 Gcc sys: 5.4.0
           Client: Shell (bash 4.3.481) inxi: 2.2.35

The one I gave to my mother was a slightly newer Lenovo N200

[DAMIEN1307]

hi evil tim...the one problem i see is that your intel CPU is running to high a temp at 68 degrees C...(it should be in the 46 to 54 degree C range under normal load) your bios date is from 2007 so i am assuming an 11 yr old rig...im assuming with your background that you may already be looking into this and cleaning out the dust bunnies, cat hair etc and checking the cooling fans operation as well as possibly considering re-doing the old thermal paste on the CPU fan to chipset scenario...as you probably know, high heat reeks havoc on a system causing many a "malfunction at the junction" with much instability...it is also possible that a mint xfce version or even peppermint 8 might be "lighter" and work better on that old of a system with less bloat involved...DAMIEN

ps...enter this list of font removal code (copy and paste) into terminal when you get it stable enough to remove unwanted "foreign" fonts with linux mint...pss...they are in mint editions but do not appear in peppermint 8 if you decide eventually to go that route...you can also "remove" bluetooth and blueberry via use of the "software manager"...we can address "timeshift" at a later time once we can help you get these other problems addressed first


Remove Rarely Used Fonts

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sudo apt-get -y --purge autoremove fonts-beng fonts-beng-extra fonts-deva fonts-droid fonts-gubbi fonts-gujr fonts-gujr-extra fonts-guru fonts-guru-extra fonts-kacst fonts-kacst-one fonts-kalapi fonts-khmeros-core fonts-knda fonts-lao fonts-lklug-sinhala fonts-lohit-beng-assamese fonts-lohit-beng-bengali fonts-lohit-deva fonts-lohit-gujr fonts-lohit-guru fonts-lohit-knda fonts-lohit-mlym fonts-lohit-orya fonts-lohit-taml fonts-lohit-taml-classical fonts-lohit-telu fonts-nakula fonts-nanum fonts-navilu fonts-noto-unhinted fonts-orya-extra fonts-pagul fonts-sahadeva fonts-samyak-deva fonts-samyak-gujr fonts-samyak-mlym fonts-samyak-taml fonts-sarai fonts-smc fonts-sil-abyssinica fonts-sil-padauk fonts-takao-pgothic fonts-taml fonts-telu fonts-telu-extra fonts-thai-tlwg fonts-tibetan-machine fonts-tlwg-garuda fonts-tlwg-garuda-ttf fonts-tlwg-kinnari fonts-tlwg-kinnari-ttf fonts-tlwg-laksaman fonts-tlwg-laksaman-ttf fonts-tlwg-loma fonts-tlwg-loma-ttf fonts-tlwg-mono fonts-tlwg-mono-ttf fonts-tlwg-norasi fonts-tlwg-norasi-ttf fonts-tlwg-purisa fonts-tlwg-purisa-ttf fonts-tlwg-sawasdee fonts-tlwg-sawasdee-ttf fonts-tlwg-typewriter fonts-tlwg-typewriter-ttf fonts-tlwg-typist fonts-tlwg-typist-ttf fonts-tlwg-typo fonts-tlwg-typo-ttf fonts-tlwg-umpush fonts-tlwg-umpush-ttf fonts-tlwg-waree fonts-tlwg-waree-ttf fonts-wqy-microhei fonts-wqy-zenhei ttf-indic-fonts-core ttf-punjabi-fonts ttf-wqy-microhei

[karlchen]

Hi, Evil Tim.

Thanks for posting the inxi -Fxz output. Actually, I cannot spot anything in it which gives a hint why this Lenovo notebook shoud not be able to run Linux Mint 18.3 Mate in a stable way.

A note on how to create inxi reports for the future:
If possible generate the inxi report logged in on the Mate GUI inside a terminal window. And there is no need to run inxi with root permissions.
The reason why an inxi report, generated inside the graphical desktop environment, is preferred over one, generated on a console monitor, are the details about the graphical equipment.
Your inxi report tells:

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Graphics:  Card: Intel Mobile 945GM/GMS 943/940GML Express Integrated Graphics Controller bus-ID: 00:02.0
           Display Server: X.org 1.18.4 drivers: intel (unloaded: fbdev,vesa)
           tty size: 136x41 Advanced Data: N/A for root

The 3rd line give us a few (irrelevant) details about your console monitor. Yet, if you had run it inside the Mate terminal application, then it would look similar to this (from my machine, so different video card):

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Graphics:  Card: NVIDIA ION VGA bus-ID: 03:00.0
           Display Server: X.Org 1.18.4 drivers: nouveau (unloaded: modesetting,fbdev,vesa)
           Resolution: 1280x1024@60.02hz
           OpenGL: renderer: NVAC version: 3.3 Mesa 17.2.8 Direct Render: Yes

We would learn about OpenGL and whether your video card supports Direct Rendering or not.

If this is the machine which regularly gets stuck, then inspecting the syslog file /var/log/syslog might be helpful. On Mint 18.3, executing the command journalctl -b 0 might be a little more helpful even, because it displays a few more details which will not be found in the syslog file.

Best regards,
Karl

[majpooper]

. . . . no way is Linux usable by end users.

Well Tim I can tell you this:

I installed LM18.3 Cinnamon on a brand new Lenovo laptop (Win 10) for my sister who just wants to point and click and has not a clue what an OS is let alone what linux is but was sick of Windows. Result: very happy no issues (she did have to learn GnuCash as a replacement for Quicken but she was willing as she was fed up with MS).

I just installed LM18.3 Cinnamon about a month ago for an elderly couple on their Windows HP all in one PC that was infested with malware. We are talking zero computer knowledge I mean zilch. Result: could not be happier - quote "the mouse works great" I think that meant the PC is working pretty well.

Since you are an experienced Unix admin it will be child's play to configure the PC to make it very user friendly (although it is out of the box for most users) to a non-computer person. I put icons on the desk top for stuff they use for example. I install firejail and I go through setup and turn off all the bells and whistles (i.e. cleaning up the start menu trivial).

One of the members of this forum, Pjotr, has a web site that is a must for all new installs of linux mint - go to it and follow the recommendations.

https://sites.google.com/site/easylinux ... amon-first

Give it another shot and then come back - but make sure the issues are the OS not something else before going off on linux mint because experience is way outside the norm.

[michael louwe]

@ Evil Tim, .......

.

.
Your 2007 laptop should be running Linux kernel 3.13 LTS or 4.4 LTS, ie not 4.13 non-LTS. Older computers are more compatible with older kernels. LM 17.3 should likely run better on the old laptop.

For very old pre-2005 computers, they should maybe run Anti-X, MX-16 or Linux Lite.

[trytip]

a few things to look at are:
.xsession-errors <<< home directory errors if you can make any sense of them
dmesg | grep -i "error\|warn\|fail" <<< boot errors
systemd-analyze blame <<< how long it takes to boot

in part i agree with your rant. most linux desktops have lot's of issues even if you don't notice them that .xsession-errors file will make your head spin on any linux. some linux menus are gross and unorganized having multiple entries in different categories and tons of things that no one ever uses especially in network category. linux mint also has a lot of permission issues where you may not be able to view your own files when booting with a live mint

your rant has much validation, but i believe the laptop you speak of has a lot issues also. things restarting or rebooting means high temperatures of cpu and gpu

[Spearmint2]

What jumped out at me immediately was the 3GB of RAM. Typically that's in even numbers like 2, 4, 8 etc. I suspect you have mismatched RAM chips. You'd be better off pulling the 1GB of RAM, then running the memtest from a LIVE DVD on the remaining 2Gb RAM chip.

[Evil Tim]

I should clarify that I posted in this sub-forum as feedback to the Mint community, not a request for help. Otherwise I'd have posted individual questions.

Thank you all for your responses. I do appreciate the thought and effort you've put into it. I'm happy you've had no problems with installs and stability. Maybe you're smarter than I am. Maybe you put more effort into configuring and troubleshooting something that should "just work". I still maintain that a real end-user could not have got as far as I did with this setup. Maybe it's a weird Lenovo N200 hardware combo. I doubt that the hardware is faulty, as it ran XP flawlessly for years. Please, recommend a basic laptop model that you can guarantee will work, and I'll try that. I really, really want this to work!

Unfortunately I'm unable to post info and logs from the PC in question, as it's an hour away from here. I asked my mother to start up Teamviewer so I could do that remotely, but it wouldn't work (Starts, accept license, then it fails to "connect"). That's the last straw. I'm going to reconsider the alternatives. Suggestions for an end-user friendly distro would be welcomed.

My concerns fall into two classes:

• Freezes, crashes and software errors. Yes, I can troubleshoot those, but I doubt a real end-user could.
• The design of the UIs and functions in apps and the desktop environment. Much of that is replaceable or reconfigurable, but it should not be necessary

Individual acknowledgements - No offence is intended, this is merely one interpretation.

• karlchen is kindly offering to help diagnose freezes and crashes, but seems to miss the points about the UI.
• absque fenestris seems to suggest crashes, having to troubleshoot the basics and poorly designed software are generally OK
• MrEen totally ignores the point. Maybe it was a joke? Sorry, it didn't help me.
• MintBean - Yes, our mothers can use it once we've got it working. I installed MATE - Are you suggesting that the Bluetooth/Blueberry startup scripts are part of the UI? I suspect you've clicked the "Don't display icon" checkbox, and Bluetooth is still running.
• Damien1307 - Actually, that's my spare laptop rather than the one in question. Yes, they're both old PCs, which is why I went with MATE. I doubt that the hardware is faulty, as they ran XP flawlessly for years, until I repurposed them with Mint. Thank you for your tip about fonts, but I maintain it should not be necessary to uninstall "bloat".
• karlchen - inxi was run within a terminal. I may be a dinosaur, but I don't make my life difficult on purpose
• majpooper - I'm genuinely happy that you and millions of others are getting on well with Mint. Yes, I can reconfigure it, but the point of picking Mint is that someone else had already done the work.
• michael louwe - Yes, it's an old PC. It's still pretty responsive and lightly loaded with Mint. Apart from when it's freezing for no apparent reason.
• trytip - I take your points. If only someone would create a forked Distro that was designed around day-to-day end user tasks!
• Spearmint2 - 1GB base memory + a 2GB upgrade (matched to to the existing memory by a RAM suppliers scanning tool). It's a valid config, and worked fine for years. If there was a mismatch, I would expect constant errors.

Additional feedback to the Mint Community
[May be Mint MATE specific] You don't see a problem with menu options labelled Backup (mintbackup) and Restore (Timeshift)? Or something labelled "Software Manager" that doesn't manage installed software? (I'm sorry, I haven't actually looked into what Timeshift does yet. And I was partly wrong about the screenshot tool - it does remember the last save location)

Maybe you do need to install other FOSS software to make Linux usable. So why not include that in the Mint distro? Isn't that the point of a distro?

Teamviewer installs fine on a Lenovo N100, but breaks the PPAs on an N200 installed from the same image. Hang on, that's not a hardware or a UI problem. Delete & reinstall? Same problem.

Here's a thought, why not put the backup icon on the Start menu, to prompt people every time? Rather more useful there than, say, Software Manager. Yes, it's all configurable, but why not start with useful choices? I'm torn over the Terminal icon there - I'd use it a lot, but real end-users should not need to.

[Spearmint2]

If looking for a known working desktop or laptop model, check this link. You said yours is LENOVO product: 0768BXG v: 3000 N100

https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop/

Mint has a lesser hardware search area, but anything that works with Ubuntu also works with Mint.

https://community.linuxmint.com/hardware/search

Always make sure you have a valid ISO download before installing, sometimes they get hit up. You check the downloaded ISO to the hash given for it to be sure you got it in good condition. If using an UEFI type computer, the simplest way is to turn UEFI off in BIOS and install in Legacy/CSM mode, for both 32 and 64 bit systems. Yours doesn't seem to be UEFI, in fact a much older model. You might try Mint 17.3, use the 32 bit version.

Worked with problems in Ubuntu 7 Feisty
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTe ... 00_0768BJG

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTe ... vo3000N100
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTe ... 00N100_FPG

http://www.linlap.com/lenovo_3000_n100

Maybe use Lubuntu like this guy. Could contact him on reddit and get some help from him for that laptop. Near bottom of page.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comment ... to_a_bios/

[–]likemindead 1 point 5 months ago
My ancient Lenovo 3000 N100 is running a fresh install of Lubuntu 17.10 with no problems, thankfully

this guy says his works perfectly.
https://community.linuxmint.com/hardware/view/27557

[lsemmens]

I have stayed out of this tread owning to my inexperience with things Linux, however, YOUR problems all seem to stem from ONE machine. I've now installed Linux Mint on my 5th machine at home with NO issues whatsoever. All machine specs are at the newest (Windows 8 and oldest XP), Some running 2Gb RAM through to 6Gb. Two of my machines run dual monitors at different resolutions and NONE of them have caused me any grief. I've been playing with computers since DOS 2.1 was released, so am more than familiar with issues relating to hardware incompatibilities. I've also played with LINUX on and off since Ubuntu was the new kid on the block, returning to Windows when hardware would not play nicely. Mint is the first distro that works "out of the box", with NO ISSUES. I would suggest that prior to crying foul when something doesn't work as it should, more time investigating the cause would be beneficial. Mint is the ONLY platform that does what it says without much jiggerpokery.

[majpooper]

YOUR problems all seem to stem from ONE machine. I've now installed Linux Mint on my 5th machine at home with NO issues whatsoever.

+1

[Evil Tim]

Update 26/5/18
Mint 18.3 MATE on my N100 has now taken a dislike to my SanDisk Cruzer USB drive; It mounts the U3 partition but not the Cruzer partition (FAT32).
IIRC, I removed the drive from the N100 without unmounting [when the PC was locked/suspended]. Rebooting hasn't helped.
A Windows PC detected the Cruzer filesystem wasn't clean. A scan showed no errors & cleaned the superblock. Mint still doesn't detect it.
(I'm not asking for help to fix this - I'm asking for the Mint automounter to at least display an error message, but ideally assist an end-user to fix it).

Update 27/5/18
Reading the excellent "must do" list linked by majpooper: UFW firewall is not enabled by default
- Probably not a problem at home behind your own router, but a very risky default.
- If these are "must do" tasks, why are they not defaults OR at least the link provided with the installation instructions?
(To all those people who say Mint is user friendly and fine out of the box, I'd say that's a pretty good demonstration that it's not)

[Moem]

- If these are "must do" tasks, why are they not defaults OR at least the link provided with the installation instructions?

They're not "must do" tasks, they are tasks that Pjotr feels one must do, and many people agree with his opinion.

[absque fenestris]

Evil Tim wrote:
Installs a huge list of "foreign" ttf fonts. No, thank you, I'll install a "language pack" if I want one.

That's the only point I totally agree with you.
Otherwise my little device works quite well - even with 2GB of RAM...

absque fenestris seems to suggest crashes, having to troubleshoot the basics and poorly designed software are generally OK

Excuse me, Evil Tim:

This seems to be a very strange interpretation of my opinion on GNU/Linux and Linux Mint in particular.
The overloaded font packages, which are also connected to the operating system or programs, annoy me under Windows, under macOS and even under Linux - and that in almost every distribution.
In contrast to the two commercial operating systems, superfluous fonts can be deleted relatively easily under Linux. Under every Linux this is done in a few minutes - do the same thing under macOS or Windows...

I don't know other UNIX systems, but they are certainly ingenious in this respect.

[pendrifter]

This sounds much more like faulty hardware than a faulty distro. I've installed Mint on more machines now than I can remember, some of them exceedingly old, and I can count the crashes I've experienced on one hand, with room to spare.

That font thing is irritating, though.