I was told not to use CLI

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bionix
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I was told not to use CLI

Post by bionix »

Today in the IRC LinuxMintHelp channel, Rusty1_64 told me not to help people using the terminal. He said that Linux Mint is a graphical distro and that if i wanted to help ppl by using commands to go somewhere else. So, I said "See ya all later" and left the channel. Forcing ppl to use only the GUI, is in my opinion why Windows users are the way they are (Mostly Uneducated about their OS). GUI desktops are awesome, whichever one you choose to use. I agree! But telling someone to not use commands in the terminal is absolutely absurd!

elbendecido
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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by elbendecido »

Beginners should avoid using the terminal, it is recommended to use only when there is no graphical way of doing things.
The terminal is so powerful that inexpert use may complicate the problems. It requires basic knowledge to use.
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nomko
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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by nomko »

elbendecido wrote:Beginners should avoid using the terminal, it is recommended to use only when there is no graphical way of doing things.
Rubbish!!! Best way to learn Linux IS USING THE TERMINAL. And some, if not most, commands (which have a GUI) can be used in the terminal preferably for the reason that using the CLI the commands have more options which isn't always visible in a GUI. And there are a lot of commands which don't have a GUI but are needed to gather information or get things working or reset certain settings. For instance, commands to a PPA, commands to install drivers (i.e.: HPLIP driver doesn't have a GUI installation but can only be installed by command line), installing software which comes as a tarball (and doesn't have a GUI for installation).
elbendecido wrote:The terminal is so powerful that inexpert use may complicate the problems. It requires basic knowledge to use.
True. But again, using the terminal is the best way to learn Linux. A GUI only shows the user a part of the whole package and in some cases a GUI doesn't show all options of a command. Basic knowledge can be gathered by reading a lot about the terminal and the commands. And you can learn a lot by asking questions or asking for advice on this forum.

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js3915
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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by js3915 »

bionix wrote:Today in the IRC LinuxMintHelp channel, Rusty1_64 told me not to help people using the terminal. He said that Linux Mint is a graphical distro and that if i wanted to help ppl by using commands to go somewhere else.
Would say depends on the problem, and situation.. Some things theres really no resolve with graphical interface... Sometimes its faster with terminal. Best answer would be if you know theres a graphical solution off the bat do that.. But one could simply respond to the question That there a couple ways to solving the problem a graphical way and terminal way terminal might be quicker but which way you prefer me to show you... Would let the beginner chooose :D

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nomko
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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by nomko »

bionix wrote:Today in the IRC LinuxMintHelp channel, Rusty1_64 told me not to help people using the terminal. He said that Linux Mint is a graphical distro and that if i wanted to help ppl by using commands to go somewhere else. So, I said "See ya all later" and left the channel. Forcing ppl to use only the GUI, is in my opinion why Windows users are the way they are (Mostly Uneducated about their OS). GUI desktops are awesome, whichever one you choose to use. I agree!
In my opion, the Windows GUI makes people dumb. Of course it's the easy way using a GUI and Windows is aiming for that. But try to fix something just only using the Windows GUI. If you don't have access to the core you will have a hard time to fix stuff. With Linux this is different. You have the GUI (Cinnamon/Mate/KDE/Gnome/Xfce/LXDE) but when something is broken, you also have access "to everything behind the GUI". This allows you to control your whole system (read Linux installation) which cannot be done when using Windows. With terminal commands you have full access to everything.
bionix wrote:But telling someone to not use commands in the terminal is absolutely absurd!
Of course this is absurd. There are moments when you need the terminal to perform certain commands or actions which can only be done using the CLI. There are terminal commands who comes with a GUI but they are mostly limited by what the developer wants to show in that GUI.

My advice to you: start using the terminal and you will learn a lot about Linux and how operating systems work!
Have fun!

srs5694
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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by srs5694 »

Another factor is that GUI tools vary between distributions and/or between desktop environments, so if you say "open the Foo tool and click the Bar option," it might not work if the user isn't using your exact distribution and desktop environment. There's much less variation in text-mode tools, though, so the same commands are likely to work no matter what desktop environment is installed, and often even from one distribution to another.

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nomko
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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by nomko »

srs5694 wrote:Another factor is that GUI tools vary between distributions and/or between desktop environments, so if you say "open the Foo tool and click the Bar option," it might not work if the user isn't using your exact distribution and desktop environment. There's much less variation in text-mode tools, though, so the same commands are likely to work no matter what desktop environment is installed, and often even from one distribution to another.
+1!
A true factor!

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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by elbendecido »

Rubbish!!! Best way to learn Linux IS USING THE TERMINAL
Many novice users do not want to learn GNU / Linux, do not have time to do it or find it very difficult. Also, remember that the popularity of Ubuntu and Linux Mint is that meets the needs of users who require only a system that works for them and nothing more. You have to respect the desicion of those users and do not force them to learn something that will not do.
And there are a lot of commands which don't have a GUI but are needed to gather information or get things working or reset certain setting
What I said!
it is recommended to use only when there is no graphical way of doing things
Before you quote me, please read my posts, to not be repeating.
For instance, commands to a PPA,
Can be more precise, I can add and remove a PPA using only the GUI, i show you if you want.
commands to install drivers (i.e.: HPLIP driver doesn't have a GUI installation but can only be installed by command line)
WRONG, I can install and configure the hplip driver for my hp all in one 1400 with only synaptic and hplip-gui program. I can show you, if you want.
installing software which comes as a tarball (and doesn't have a GUI for installation).
Example? be more precise, there are tons of deb packages and repositories.

The one you do not know how to use the GUI, not a reason to force newbies to use the terminal. If they no want to do it.
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Post by Zalbor »

The average user wants to fix/change something and remember how to do it.
The average user won't remember a series of obscure commands but they will remember where to click.

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eanfrid
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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by eanfrid »

Many novice users do not want to learn GNU / Linux, do not have time to do it or find it very difficult. Also, remember that the popularity of Ubuntu and Linux Mint is that meets the needs of users who require only a system that works for them and nothing more. You have to respect the desicion of those users and do not force them to learn something
Then they came to GNU/Linux for wrong reasons if they expect to have nothing new to learn and to recycle their Windows "skills". A Linux distrib is definitively not Windows.
Zalbor wrote:The average user wants to fix/change something and remember how to do it.
The average user won't remember a series of obscure commands but they will remember where to click.
It is closer to psittacism than to true understanding...
Last edited by eanfrid on Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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nomko
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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by nomko »

elbendecido wrote:
commands to install drivers (i.e.: HPLIP driver doesn't have a GUI installation but can only be installed by command line)
WRONG, I can install and configure the hplip driver for my hp all in one 1400 with only synaptic and hplip-gui program. I can show you, if you want.
Using synaptic gives you not the latest HPLIP driver. The HPLIP driver in synaptic is older than the driver provied by http://hplipopensource.com/. If the need is there to install the latest driver, download it from that site and try to install it with a GUI......
elbendecido wrote:
installing software which comes as a tarball (and doesn't have a GUI for installation).
Example? be more precise, there are tons of deb packages and repositories.
Go find it yourself. Some drivers/tools/applications aren't available as a .deb or .rpm but only as a tarball.


As far as i can see, you only come with lame excuses and evasions for not using the terminal. I'm even wondering if Linux is the correct operating system for you. You really need a terminal when you're using Linux. If the Linux distro developers doesn't want the users to use the terminal, they really won't make a menu entry for it. If the Linux distro's don't want you to use the terminal and they denied you the access to a terminal you end up like Windows. Just a GUI and a hell of a problem trying to fix something....
Last edited by nomko on Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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nomko
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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by nomko »

eanfrid wrote:
Many novice users do not want to learn GNU / Linux, do not have time to do it or find it very difficult. Also, remember that the popularity of Ubuntu and Linux Mint is that meets the needs of users who require only a system that works for them and nothing more. You have to respect the desicion of those users and do not force them to learn something
Then they came to GNU/Linux for wrong reasons if they expect to have nothing new to learn and to recycle their Windows "skills". A Linux distrib is definitively not Windows.
+1!
Like i said, a GUI makes users dumb. With a GUI a user is very limited. You can only do what a developer wants you to do.Linux doesn't have that limitation. And as said here above, if a user wants only to use a GUI, then that is really a wrong reason.

Canonical doesn't provide an operating system with a simple GUI. Canonical did something for Linux what no other distro ever has done before. Canonical is the first company that made an accessible and user-friendly distro. This had nothing to do with the desktop environment (or GUI) itself. Canonical made is accessible and user-friendly by making sure that all (or at least as much as possible) hardware was supported without "fooling around". It made sure that Ubuntu was installed in a ease like Windows does without having any technical background or expert knowledge of linux.

But even with a user-friendly distro like Ubuntu you have to do some stuff in the terminal!

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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by elbendecido »

Then they came to GNU/Linux for wrong reasons if they expect to have nothing new to learn and to recycle their Windows "skills". A Linux distrib is definitively not Windows.
WRONG, Would not be selfish, do not think only what you need, in case you did not know there are users who do not want to become programmers or developers, or are interested in learning, just want to enjoy your system.
It's like the desktop paradigm.
When Canonical imposed unity, ALL were willing to learn to use it?, NOT, everyone chose to stay with what would satisfy your needs, NO FORCES TO USERS. Let them make their own decisions.
If them love's the GUI than the CLI, let them be.
Using synaptic gives you not the latest HPLIP driver. The HPLIP driver in synaptic is older than the driver provied by http://hplipopensource.com/. If the need is there to install the latest driver, download it from that site and try to install it with a GUI......
Open your mind, What is it? -> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/hp ... _amd64.deb
with a few mouse clicks you can install the latest hplip driver. I said, there are TONS of DEB's packages and Repositories.
As far as i can see, you only come with lame excuses and evasions for not using the terminal. I'm even wondering if Linux is the correct operating system for you.
Careful not know me, did you know that hundreds of times I have taken [url=http://mirror.us.leaseweb.net/archlinux/iso/2013.08.01/archlinux-2013.08.01-dual.iso]the latest version of Arch Linux[/url] and just use the terminal (And hundred of repeatly commands) to get [url=http://foros.archlinux-es.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6850&start=15#p43401]this result[/url]
Can you do it? maybe yes, but I'm not a rookie, if I defend the position of the GUI lovers, it is because we understand and accept the needs of all users and not those of us advanced users.
You really need a terminal when you're using Linux
In Distros like Arch and Gentoo, all the time, but in friendly Ubuntu's a very few times is necessary.
If the Linux distro developers doesn't want the users to use the terminal, they really won't make a menu entry for it. If the Linux distro's don't want you to use the terminal and they denied you the access to a terminal you end up like Windows. Just a GUI and a hell of a problem trying to fix something....
But even with a user-friendly distro like Ubuntu you have to do some stuff in the terminal!

Do not be extremist. I NEVER said that you should not use the terminal. Again, read my posts in detail. My sole purpose is to recognize that there are users who do not have the same needs or skills than you. And they should not be forced to do something they do not want.
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monkeyboy
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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by monkeyboy »

Today in the IRC LinuxMintHelp channel, Rusty1_64 told me not to help people using the terminal.

Dude it is the net you find people who are telling folks all kinds of stuff, some of it right some of it is wrong. My suggestion is consider the source and make your own call.


He said that Linux Mint is a graphical distro and that if i wanted to help ppl by using commands to go somewhere else.

Well he is entitled to his opinion and he gets to state it. How much credence you chose to give it is your call however.

So, I said "See ya all later" and left the channel.

Your choice.

Forcing ppl to use only the GUI, is in my opinion why Windows users are the way they are (Mostly Uneducated about their OS).

For the most part I agree with you but "forcing people" is a bit strong. Its not like Microsoft, Apple or anyone else is going door to door and at gun point making people use a GUI, its more the effect of marketing as opposed to coercion in my opinion.

GUI desktops are awesome, whichever one you choose to use. I agree! But telling someone to not use commands in the terminal is absolutely absurd!

Relax, its just the net. Enjoy
If you don't like it, make something better
If you can't make something better, adapt
If you can't do either ball your panties up and cry.

Complaining is like masticating most anyone can do it.
However doing it in public is really hardcore.

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nomko
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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by nomko »

elbendecido wrote:.....
Alright.....alright.....alright.....you made your point.....proud of yourself now?????
I get bored of you now........

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js3915
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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by js3915 »

bionix wrote:Today in the IRC LinuxMintHelp channel, Rusty1_64 told me not to help people using the terminal.
Well OP never said what he was assisting with either... Could of been things that doing by graphical interface is nearly impossible or impossible... Though I would say

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grimdestripador
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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by grimdestripador »

The average user won't remember a series of obscure commands but they will remember where to click.

Yes, and to the the graphical nature, being depentant on GUI interfaces of the day (Mate,Cinnamon,Gnome,XFCE). It will be renamed, moved, and sometimes grayed out. Telling someone how to use a GUI depends on the GUI never changing, with instructions being written out as a page long list of steps and icon recgonition.
Last edited by grimdestripador on Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by ajgreeny »

elbendecido wrote:
Open your mind, What is it? -> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/hp ... _amd64.deb
with a few mouse clicks you can install the latest hplip driver. I said, there are TONS of DEB's packages and Repositories.
No use if you are running Ubuntu 12.04, or presumably Mint 13 as there is a uninstallable dependency, and to sort that out would definitely need the terminal!

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nomko
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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by nomko »

ajgreeny wrote:
elbendecido wrote:
Open your mind, What is it? -> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/hp ... _amd64.deb
with a few mouse clicks you can install the latest hplip driver. I said, there are TONS of DEB's packages and Repositories.
No use if you are running Ubuntu 12.04, or presumably Mint 13 as there is a uninstallable dependency, and to sort that out would definitely need the terminal!
Forget this. elbendecido will find any lame excuse to hide his lack of experience with terminals and trying to convince everybody that Linux works like Windows.....only by a GUI.

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Re: I was told not to use CLI

Post by elbendecido »

Forget this. elbendecido will find any lame excuse to hide his lack of experience with terminals and trying to convince everybody that Linux works like Windows.....only by a GUI.
Nomko is a old-age caveman trapped in the past. Do not know or will not do anything with the GUI (Cinnamon, Mate, Xfce and Kde).What a shame!
Today users, we handle both the GUI and the CLI.
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