Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Please post suggestions for improvement of Cinnamon on:
https://github.com/linuxmint/Cinnamon
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bimsebasse
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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by bimsebasse »

Cinnamon is a fork of Gnome Shell, the default "shell" or graphical user interface in Gnome 3.
MATE is a fork of gnome-panel, the default interface in Gnome 2.

Gnome 3 is a complete desktop environment and Gnome Shell is Gnome 3's default shell, they are not interchangeable terms though gnome shell is often referred to as "Gnome 3" - a slight misunderstanding which only serves to confuse.
Thank you for this thread. That’s all I can say. You most definitely have made this forum into something special. You clearly know what you are doing, you’ve covered so many bases. Thanks!

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by Arrow2Knee »

bimsebasse wrote:Cinnamon is a fork of Gnome Shell, the default "shell" or graphical user interface in Gnome 3.
MATE is a fork of gnome-panel, the default interface in Gnome 2.

Gnome 3 is a complete desktop environment and Gnome Shell is Gnome 3's default shell, they are not interchangeable terms though gnome shell is often referred to as "Gnome 3" - a slight misunderstanding which only serves to confuse.
Thanks!

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by viking777 »

kmb42vt wrote: Now that's peculiar to say the least. I take it you're running the 32-bit version of LM 12 in VirtualBox? If so then it could be two reasons. The menu rendering in VB (most likely as running a Linux based distro in VB can be fairly quirky) or it's a problem in the 32-bit version of LM12 (less likely I'd guess). Let me know which version of LM 12 you're running in VB and if it's the 32-bit then I'll probably download it and install it in VB myself. It will be a couple days though as I have to reload the Windows side of my wife's PC (W7 Pro and then XP in VirtualBox--bleh).
No, it is the 64bit version that I have running. As you say it is probably just the rendering in VB doesn't work properly (I don't know why people think VM's are so good, they prove nothing in my opinion). It's not a big deal anyway, if I wanted to test it properly I would install it and it would probably work normally. The other thing is that Cinnamon probably has only 'alpha' release status at the moment, things are bound to be a bit unstable.

Thanks anyway.
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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by Arrow2Knee »

Hi, I am using Cinnamon as main DE, can I remove any GNOME related package now, such as mint-meta-gnome, mint-meta-msge, ...

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by Rehdon »

bimsebasse wrote:What people liked about Gnome 2 in Mint wasn't just the one panel and right-clicking on it to add launchers, that's about 0,8% of Gnome 2, the rest was the customisability and system fine tuning options of Gnome 2 as a whole, it was Compiz, the myriad of themes available and whatnot - the panel is just the surface of all this and Cinnamon won't ever achieve more than being a facsimile of the surface. It's still Gnome 3, still no Compiz, still an OS comparatively deprived of GUI customisation options.
You're perhaps thinking about a "costantly tinkering with their desktop" kind of user, which seems to be a very specific case among possible users of a customized Gnome Shell environment. I like to tinker, but can happily live without Compiz, and after I reach a satisfying setup I don't touch a thing in ages. I guess even more users would be just happy with a better Gnome 3, provided the defaults are sane and there is some form of customization. But Clem pointed at the latter several times, so I'd let him lay out his plan and implement it before bewailing "an OS comparatively deprived of GUI customisation options" (not meaning this as a flame, of course).

What I really can't stand of GS / Unity is an alien workflow that "UI designers" decided is better for you. If it weren't for Linux Mint I'd be using XFCE right now. LM + MGSE + more extensions fit the bill for me
bimsebasse wrote:My bet is Cinnamon will end like MGSE looks to end, a brave bit of Gnome Shell patchwork that ultimately didn't satisfy the Gnome 2 diehards, and unlike MGSE it has nothing to offer to those who have moved on. The real future of of Gnome 2's gnome-panel desktop was MATE but it doesn't look like it's catching enough steam.
About the Gnome 2 diehards: see above, I don't think they're the prime target for Cinnamon, their needs should be catered by Mate. And note that I was one of them before finding out about LM and MGSE.

About Cinnamon's fate: why are you so pessimistic? it's not that LM MGSE "failed", on the contrary, I think it's being ditched because of its success, i.e. since people appreciated it so much the devs are thinking of a better way to doing just that, bringing back GS to a more usable state.

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by Rehdon »

Arrow2Knee wrote:Hi, I am using Cinnamon as main DE, can I remove any GNOME related package now, such as mint-meta-gnome, mint-meta-msge, ...
I don't think so, since Cinnamon is an alternative to the Gnome Shell, but everything else that is Gnome 3 related has to stay for it to work.

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by craig10x »

Rehdon wrote:
Arrow2Knee wrote:Hi, I am using Cinnamon as main DE, can I remove any GNOME related package now, such as mint-meta-gnome, mint-meta-msge, ...
I don't think so, since Cinnamon is an alternative to the Gnome Shell, but everything else that is Gnome 3 related has to stay for it to work.
I agree...i wouldn't suggest he remove those packages either...unless he "enjoys" the possibility of things getting messed up and having to do a re-install :lol:

Also agree about MGSE not be a failure...it certainly isn't...in fact, because of how well it works, Clem has wisely chosen the ubuntu route of actually doing re-writes (or whatever the technical term is...lol) on the shell to incorporate all the configurations and features of it, rather then using "extensions" which can ultimately slow down the system, cause more memory usage, and other possible problems that might develop...this is why unity is currently generally more smooth and stable then gnome 3 with extensions are...whether one actual cares for unity or not, that is something i did observe having used both...

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by viking777 »

Arrow2Knee wrote:Hi, I am using Cinnamon as main DE, can I remove any GNOME related package now, such as mint-meta-gnome, mint-meta-msge, ...
You can always remove meta packages, they are basically just links to install other programs, removing the meta package does not remove the other packages they have installed, so it doesn't do any harm, but then again doesn't do much good either because all the packages it has installed remain where they are.
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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by kmb42vt »

bimsebasse wrote:
...The real future of of Gnome 2's gnome-panel desktop was MATE but it doesn't look like it's catching enough steam.
Give it time. Everything is brand new right now and MATE is still very much a beta and Cinnamon is still alpha and neither one are due to go final until LM 13. It's way too early to tell if either DE is going to succeed or not. :wink:

I agree that everything that has to do with Gnome looks pretty bleak right now but Clem is backing MATE (project manager) as well as developing a brand new fork of gnome-shell for Gnome 3. I can see what he's trying to do. He knows he can't satisfy everyone who misses Gnome 2 but between MATE and Cinnamon he can at least satisfy the majority of Mint users (and perhaps others when MATE and Cinnamon are packaged for other distros), those who love the Gnome 2 DE who take to MATE and those who like Gnome 3 but want a bit more functionality and customization options. In building their own gnome-shell from the ground up it lets the Mint devs add their own features into the core of gnome-shell itself rather than patching it from the outside with gnome-shell extensions.

That's my two and a half cents worth anyway. :D
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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by Joe_Linux »

bimsebasse wrote:What people liked about Gnome 2 in Mint wasn't just the one panel and right-clicking on it to add launchers, that's about 0,8% of Gnome 2, the rest was the customisability and system fine tuning options of Gnome 2 as a whole, it was Compiz, the myriad of themes available and whatnot - the panel is just the surface of all this and Cinnamon won't ever achieve more than being a facsimile of the surface. It's still Gnome 3, still no Compiz, still an OS comparatively deprived of GUI customisation options.

My bet is Cinnamon will end like MGSE looks to end, a brave bit of Gnome Shell patchwork that ultimately didn't satisfy the Gnome 2 diehards, and unlike MGSE it has nothing to offer to those who have moved on. The real future of of Gnome 2's gnome-panel desktop was MATE but it doesn't look like it's catching enough steam.
My feeling is you are overly pessimistic. Give them all time. I believe Gnome Shell will improve over time as well. Obviously at the present time it's a half ass piece of junk. The developers should wear bags over their heads. Some will probably deny ever working on it. It really isn't something you would want on your resume. My feeling is the people who developed Gnome 2 are not the same ones who developed Gnome 3. However I have heard that there is the intention to improve it in the future.

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by KBD47 »

For those of us who want a usable, traditional style desktop--Gnome Shell will never be it because it's doing its best to be a tablet interface, and that isn't likely to change. Cinnamon is the best chance Gnome 3 has at being useful and usable.
I mentioned several times on the forum that Mint should just go with Xfce. It takes very little tweaking to make it into a useful desktop and it is unlikely to make a crazy change into tabletness. I think I just created a word: tabletness.
Anyway, if all experiments fail--and I suspect Cinnamon will not--there is always Xfce. I'm using the Xfce Mint Debian edition now and it has become my primary OS on the computer I use most.
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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by altair4 »

I agree with your sentiment including Cinnamon being the best hope for a traditional desktop experience using Gnome3.

I even agree with your "tabletness" metaphor and if you extend it even further it even has through these shell extensions the equivalent of " there's an app for that" when you want to do something not built into the default desktop. After forcing myself to use Xubuntu for a while now I have found that XFCE has come a long way since I used it last and never new about "Thunar Custom Actions" which allows all sots of configurability options.
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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by z06gal »

This place does not know the meaning of giving anything time. It just beats all I have ever seen. :roll:

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by LexMK »

Strange as it may sound, I'm using Cinnamon on my tablet and I like it more than Shell.
Only thing missing are gestures, but I think that will be introduced sooner or later.
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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by craig10x »

I'm using Cinnamon as my primary session now even though it doesn't even have all the basic features built into yet and i like it best of all (even more then mgse which i also like)...

zo6gal is quite right about too many impatient people on this forum...also, while it is true that some will never be happy because even at it's best, even cinnamon might never be customizable to the point that some here seem to insist on but the majority of users will be very happy with it...just give me a good looking, stable and easy to use desktop (like cinnamon)... maybe make just a few "tweaks"...i don't have to make a million adjustments on it to be happy or satisfied... :)

for those who enjoy making a million adjustments...may i suggest KDE...that is the most configurable desktop i have ever seen...so much so that it makes me dizzy just to look at it :lol:

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by kmb42vt »

z06gal wrote:This place does not know the meaning of giving anything time. It just beats all I have ever seen. :roll:
Heh, not to worry, z06gal although I sometimes share your sentiment. It's just the Linux-wide Gnome 3/gnome-shell/Unity disgruntlement leaking into the Mint forums--it was bound to happen. Did you also happen to notice how many more level 1 forum users we have lately? Quite a lot actually by my count. And while doesn't necessarily mean that they're new to Linux at all, it could mean they sought out Linux Mint in possible hopes for sanity in a world of Gnome turned upside down? :shock: Unfortunately (for them), they didn't quite find it here either--yet. But give it time and they will.

Still, all this moaning and groaning going on is a bit much. "Cinnamon isn't going to amount to anything", "MATE will never be Gnome 2", etc, etc. So the future is already known? Both DE's are in their infancy more or less and not considered stable or finished in any way shape or form yet the present state of these DEs represents what they will be when they are finished? Anyone who has used a GNU/Linux distro for any time at all knows this to be complete (insert animal of your choice) manure

So let's see what the future has to bring, yes? Because that future really isn't that far off.
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How to autohide bottom panel?

Post by BUGHUNTER »

Hi, sorry if I did not read the whole thread - I just want to autohide my panel - I do like cinnamon, also I like gnome 3, but how can I autohide the panels?

Thanks for your attention,
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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by KBD47 »

There is just a lot of frustration that Gnome has taken things backwards for many users by removing features and configuration in Gnome 3. It sort of feels like that movie "Groundhog Day" living the same thing over and over again. All these good people are working to get Gnome back to where it was a year ago--maybe its crazy, but we have to be a bit crazy to be Linux users in the first place. Or maybe it's that the world is mad and we are the only sane ones left. :lol:

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by bimsebasse »

KBD47 wrote:For those of us who want a usable, traditional style desktop--Gnome Shell will never be it because it's doing its best to be a tablet interface, and that isn't likely to change. Cinnamon is the best chance Gnome 3 has at being useful and usable.
Sigh. It's like talking to a thousand rocks. In what way is Gnome Shell a tablet interface? Among a certain segment of Linux users any setup that isn't strongly reminiscent of Windows 95 is a tablet interface, tertium non datur, it's just a chant to excuse inability to adapt to change or different ways of doing things. Gnome Shell's desktop works perfectly and intuitively for me and many, many other desktop users - the way you feel in Gnome Shell, tied, hindered, hard to get work done, that same way I feel in Gnome 2 (ricochets off stone).

And I didn't mean to moan about MATE or Cinnamon, I just don't see them ever really taking off, don't see their potential beyond perhaps a decade at best. And certainly not moaning about Gnome Shell where I like to be, despite glitches and quirks. MGSE soon to become a thing of the past is likewise not a moan but what you can read between the lines as Mint's main developer has abandoned Gnome Shell to work on a fork. It would be patently odd with all the demands on Mr. Lefebvre's time from waiting Mint KDE and Debian users if Cinnamon was just a hobby or an experiment, it's gonna replace MGSE. MGSE had the benefit of sharing userbase with the main editions of Fedora, OpenSUSE, Pinguy and every distro using Gnome Shell. Cutting yourself off from GNOME's main desktop and the large community using it and developing on it for a fork created only in order to easier mimic an older desktop setup doesn't strike me as a plan - in the short run, probably, not in the long run, when traditional desktop fans become fewer and fewer. I guess Mint can always jump back to Gnome Shell again when it's matured more.
Thank you for this thread. That’s all I can say. You most definitely have made this forum into something special. You clearly know what you are doing, you’ve covered so many bases. Thanks!

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by bimsebasse »

KBD47 wrote:There is just a lot of frustration that Gnome has taken things backwards for many users by removing features and configuration in Gnome 3. It sort of feels like that movie "Groundhog Day" living the same thing over and over again. All these good people are working to get Gnome back to where it was a year ago--maybe its crazy, but we have to be a bit crazy to be Linux users in the first place. Or maybe it's that the world is mad and we are the only sane ones left. :lol:
Cinnamon is not going back to that, it gives you a panel in the bottom and eventually some right-click functionality on that panel, it's still Gnome 3, all the non-panel specific config options and everything else Gnome 2, Cinnamon can't help you with that. Gnome 2 is gone and Cinnamon is not a rebirth, it's a comparatively superficial tweak of the panel and notifications setup in Gnome Shell, that's all. MATE is trying to be Gnome 2 reborn but it's a pretty long process porting everything.

Edit: Getting a bit too negative now, so, good things about Cinnamon!:
- much better handling of system notifications which get in your way in Gnome Shell and out of your way in Cinnamon
- feels more stable, probably because it doesn't have to load extensions
- doesn't kill you

:D
Thank you for this thread. That’s all I can say. You most definitely have made this forum into something special. You clearly know what you are doing, you’ve covered so many bases. Thanks!

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