Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Please post suggestions for improvement of Cinnamon on:
https://github.com/linuxmint/Cinnamon
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Joe_Linux
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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by Joe_Linux »

bimsebasse wrote:
KBD47 wrote: about MATE or Cinnamon, I just don't see them ever really taking off, don't see their potential beyond perhaps a decade at best. . . . Cutting yourself off from GNOME's main desktop and the large community using it and developing on it for a fork created only in order to easier mimic an older desktop setup doesn't strike me as a plan - in the short run, probably, not in the long run, when traditional desktop fans become fewer and fewer. I guess Mint can always jump back to Gnome Shell again when it's matured more.
Mint isn't on the top of the charts because it is going in the wrong direction. Mint is delivering what most users want. Just because you don't like a shitty interface does not make you unadaptable to change.

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by bimsebasse »

Mint grew with Gnome's main desktop, it's obviously gonna be a different scenario when Mint is cut off from the biggest DE in Linux using it's own fork catering only to a specific Linux user, it'll go from being a traditionalist friendly distro to a traditionalist only distro, as far as traditionalists in the main dream of Gnome Shell forks, I'm not sure they do.
Thank you for this thread. That’s all I can say. You most definitely have made this forum into something special. You clearly know what you are doing, you’ve covered so many bases. Thanks!

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by kmb42vt »

bimsebasse wrote:
Edit: Getting a bit too negative now, so, good things about Cinnamon!:
- much better handling of system notifications which get in your way in Gnome Shell and out of your way in Cinnamon
- feels more stable, probably because it doesn't have to load extensions
- doesn't kill you

:D
+1! :lol:
"Humph. Choice, it is the quintessential Linux delusion, simultaneously the source of it's greatest strength, and it's greatest weakness." (All apologies to The Architect)

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by kmb42vt »

bimsebasse wrote:Mint grew with Gnome's main desktop, it's obviously gonna be a different scenario when Mint is cut off from the biggest DE in Linux using it's own fork catering only to a specific Linux user, it'll go from being a traditionalist friendly distro to a traditionalist only distro, as far as traditionalists in the main dream of Gnome Shell forks, I'm not sure they do.
I think we may be jumping the gun on assuming that Linux Mint is cutting itself off from Gnome altogether. I really have a hard time believing that Clem would cut off his nose in spite of his face that way. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised one bit if Linux Mint 13 included Cinnamon, Gnome and MATE for the default available DEs. After all, all 3 DEs are already included in Linux Mint 12 right now--aren't they? :)
"Humph. Choice, it is the quintessential Linux delusion, simultaneously the source of it's greatest strength, and it's greatest weakness." (All apologies to The Architect)

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by craig10x »

Linux Mint was never totally identical to the ubuntu layout...as you know, old ubuntu always had 2 panels and a "fan out" style menu...Mint always had just 1 panel on bottom with the specially designed mint slab style menu...

Now, ubuntu has a modified gnome 3 shell in the form of a unity dock bar...and mint is now doing the same thing as ubuntu by doing a modified gnome 3 shell but having a more traditional panel on bottom with mint style slab menu instead...both doing the same thing with different final interfaces...that's all...

And actually in the case of mint...much more flexible out of the box (not right now in the alpha stage but by the time mint 13 will be released, not doubt) :wink:
Last edited by craig10x on Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bimsebasse
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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by bimsebasse »

kmb42vt wrote:
bimsebasse wrote:Mint grew with Gnome's main desktop, it's obviously gonna be a different scenario when Mint is cut off from the biggest DE in Linux using it's own fork catering only to a specific Linux user, it'll go from being a traditionalist friendly distro to a traditionalist only distro, as far as traditionalists in the main dream of Gnome Shell forks, I'm not sure they do.
I think we may be jumping the gun on assuming that Linux Mint is cutting itself off from Gnome altogether. I really have a hard time believing that Clem would cut off his nose in spite of his face that way. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised one bit if Linux Mint 13 included Cinnamon, Gnome and MATE for the default available DEs. After all, all 3 DEs are already included in Linux Mint 12 right now--aren't they? :)
Oh yeah, that seems very likely - I'm not worried for myself, I just log in to the standard Gnome session which most likely will be included in Mint 13 and onwards, just feel working with Gnome and with the large Gnome Shell community (as MGSE did) has much better future prospects than a Gnome Shell fork maintained and developed by one man. Anyway, time will tell.
Thank you for this thread. That’s all I can say. You most definitely have made this forum into something special. You clearly know what you are doing, you’ve covered so many bases. Thanks!

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by pony-tail »

And I didn't mean to moan about MATE or Cinnamon, I just don't see them ever really taking off, don't see their potential beyond perhaps a decade at best. And certainly not moaning about Gnome Shell where I like to be, despite glitches and quirks. MGSE soon to become a thing of the past is likewise not a moan but what you can read between the lines as Mint's main developer has abandoned Gnome Shell to work on a fork. It would be patently odd with all the demands on Mr. Lefebvre's time from waiting Mint KDE and Debian users if Cinnamon was just a hobby or an experiment, it's gonna replace MGSE. MGSE had the benefit of sharing userbase with the main editions of Fedora, OpenSUSE, Pinguy and every distro using Gnome Shell. Cutting yourself off from GNOME's main desktop and the large community using it and developing on it for a fork created only in order to easier mimic an older desktop setup doesn't strike me as a plan - in the short run, probably, not in the long run, when traditional desktop fans become fewer and fewer. I guess Mint can always jump back to Gnome Shell again when it's matured more.
In 10 years time our whole Computer paradigm will most likely have changed and none of the current technologies will have much relevance .
So if it lasts ten years that would be impressive . I personally do not like the current tablet interfaces put forward by any of the vendors at present - even on tablets - I am stuck using a tablet for work ( all of the workshop manuals and parts books are on it ) and although I am not fussed using it , it is a step ahead of a microfiche . I do not think tablets will replace the PC in most instances for most people , I think it is just vendors trying to cash in on the next marketing boom - if it arrives .

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by KBD47 »

Am I wrong or won't Gnome Shell be in the Mint repo even if it's not actually included in Mint 13? I imagine it will be in Ubuntu 12.04 repo so it will be accessible for those who want to use it.
But my guess is the majority of Mint users still want a familiar desktop, and we should have that in Cinnamon. Looks like a win-win situation to me.
Those Gnome Shell extensions in MGSE were always at the mercy of Gnome, and open to breakage with updates. I'm guessing Cinnamon will be immune, or at least more so than MGSE.
KBD47

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by craig10x »

I think gnome shell will be included in Mint 13...i would say, very likely...though no doubt, the default will be Cinnamon :)
Even just using Cinnamon in it's Alpha stage, it already feels more stable to me :D
Of course, it doesn't have all the features yet...but i like it so much, i decided to use it as my main session...It just "feels nice" using it...and anyway i always have had a fondness for cinnamon :lol:

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by bimsebasse »

Isn't MGSE a familiar desktop? It's got a bottom panel with mint menu and window tabs, just like Cinnamon has. What is it Cinnamon can do currently that can't be done in MGSE? There are 9 pages and counting of setup customisation options for Gnome Shell making it already close to gnome-panel in customisability, certain to surpass it eventually in that department - Cinnamon? nothing. A hint of maybe in the future the possibility to add ported extensions is all. So it's not the customisation people want, it's just a single bottom panel (which can be achieved in MGSE within minutes).

This is Gnome Shell, not Cinnamon:

Image
Thank you for this thread. That’s all I can say. You most definitely have made this forum into something special. You clearly know what you are doing, you’ve covered so many bases. Thanks!

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by craig10x »

Yes, MGSE is a familar desktop also...However Cinnamon is more then MGSE...he actually writes it into the shell instead of tacking on extensions...much in the same way that unity is done by ubuntu....should give superior stability then tacking on a lot of extensions...MGSE is certainly not a bad way to go, but this is actually better in the long run...

With Cinnamon, you will be able to make your changes and adjustments right within it's own configuration program, with no need to download extensions to do it...
for example...you want to move the panel to the top instead of having on the bottom, well you will be able to do that right in the system settings...not download an extension to do it...

Even the stuff that you already see in Cinnamon, is written into it...that is not being done with extensions...

Nice screenshot by the way...looks nice the way you have it...but with Cinnamon (eventually as it progresses) you would be able to get that without adding extensions...
and by the way, various gnome 3 shell themes can easily be imported to cinnamon too...

You have to keep in mind that Cinnamon is only in alpha now and fairly "bare bones"...as Clem sends down newer versions through the update manager it will start to change with more customization, features, and things you can do with it...
Last edited by craig10x on Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by z06gal »

This comment from the WebUpd8 write up is why I think Cinnamon will win out:

"At a first look, Cinnamon looks and behaves a lot like GNOME Shell with Mint GNOME Shell Extensions, except the MGSE features are built-in (the panel settings for instance, hasn't been implemented yet)."


I like the fact that things will be built in rather than activating and deactivating extensions which may not always play well together. I had some freezing issues with MGSE and my theme went back to default every time I logged out or rebooted for some reason. They are both a work in progress but I like Cinnamon alot right now :wink:


Edit: Craig, I you posted while I was typing my post. We are thinking alike here. You probably should be worried :mrgreen:

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by bimsebasse »

I can't believe extensions are mentioned like they're a bad thing. Sure there are stability issues right now but if you can give Cinnamon time to grow, you can do the same with Gnome Shell, it's 9 months old. It's like preferring to have a firefox where one developer has hardcoded 3 add-ons into it and disabled the option to add more over a firefox where you have to go through the torturous process of adding those 3 add-ons yourself and at the same time have access to all the others.

All those things you mention, craig, that maybe Cinnamon will have in the future, well, Gnome Shell is not in a permanent feature freeze, it will enjoy additions and improvements in the same period, and has many more people working on it.

I'll agree that Cinnamon will probably please the average Minter more than MGSE in Mint 13, but so would just shipping Gnome 2.
Last edited by bimsebasse on Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thank you for this thread. That’s all I can say. You most definitely have made this forum into something special. You clearly know what you are doing, you’ve covered so many bases. Thanks!

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by craig10x »

definitely, Robin :lol:

@bimsebasse: No, you are right extensions aren't a bad thing and will likely improve in the long run, however, the idea of having all the configuration built in is actually a very good thing and i think it will work out quite nicely...it seems to be for ubuntu..."unity haters" not withstanding :wink:

built in should make for a better "out of the box" package for the mint distro...newbies as well as many seasoned linux and mint users will appreciate having most of their customization available right in their system settings (as they had in the old gnome) rather then having to go outside to get them...and no doubt, there will be a nice bunch of default "themes' to choose from, and for those that desire even more stuff and themes, there will be many theme and extension developers who like the mint project who will port their stuff for mint as well...

so i don't think Cinnamon will be quite as "restrictive" as it seems you think it will be, as compared to MGSE and the gnome 3 shell extensions website... :)

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by z06gal »

I didn't say they are a bad thing and didn't mean to imply that. In a perfect world, I'd rather have built in features. Both will absolutely mature I am sure. I prefer built in features personally. This thread is a fantastic example of why I love Linux, esp Mint - choices - and alot of them. There is simply not a bad desktop environment in my opinion. It is all about what you like. There are and always will be opposition to change but change happens anyway and people adapt :wink:

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by bimsebasse »

So you would both prefer a Firefox with 3 built-in add-ons than a Firefox with none but the possibility to add them and loads more?

And it's not configuration built in, it's setup built in, you can't in any way change neither the menu nor the window list in Cinnamon. You can't disable them or add something else, you're stuck with it. Even if Cinnamon was set up exactly like I like my shell, I would go with the one where I have choices, not the one where I have none.

But this is getting pointless - I'll be in seclusion in the west wing :D
Thank you for this thread. That’s all I can say. You most definitely have made this forum into something special. You clearly know what you are doing, you’ve covered so many bases. Thanks!

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by z06gal »

bimsebasse wrote:So you would both prefer a Firefox with 3 built-in add-ons than a Firefox with none but the possibility to add them and loads more?

And it's not configuration built in, it's setup built in, you can't in any way change neither the menu nor the window list in Cinnamon. You can't disable them or add something else, you're stuck with it. Even if Cinnamon was set up exactly like I like my shell, I would go with the one where I have choices, not the one where I have none.

But this is getting pointless - I'll be in seclusion in the west wing :D

It depends upon what you like bim. I use ff and have a whopping 2 add-ons. In my experience, the more add-ons I have the slower my computer runs plus I just am not into all that. Even running MGSE, I had the autohide top panel extension added, turned on the bottom panel extension as I prefer one panel and the top was fine for that, and the blue tooth removal ext. I added the weather extension but turned it off because I started having glitches afterwards so I figured it was something there. As has been stated countless times, gnome shell is very much a work in progress and so is Cinnamon. I am betting that when Mint 13 arrives, we will all be very satisfied. This is not an argument. For me, RIGHT NOW, Cinnamon is the more stable of the 2. Mint 13 may be another story. NEITHER IS BAD :)

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by MALsPa »

z06gal wrote:There is simply not a bad desktop environment in my opinion.
I feel the same way. I'm comfortable using any of 'em, or any of the window managers I've tried so far. I can't even say that I have a favorite. I enjoy using GNOME Shell -- without much in the way of extensions -- and Unity, but I also really like Xfce, Openbox, and KDE (to name a few). Whenever I get around to trying them out, I'll probably like MGSE and Cinnamon, too. Give me a terminal and a halfway-decent file manager, and I guess a few other key apps, and the rest doesn't seem to matter much. The way I figure it, there are always good reasons why some people like using a certain DE or WM (or shell, I guess), and so I figure I might as well spend some time with it and find out why those people like it. So far, I've never come away thinking, "This one's no good" or whatever. Maybe I'm just too easy to please.

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by craig10x »

oh and quick note to bim: yes...for example RIGHT NOW you can't change the list of favorites in the menu (take away what is on there or add new ones) or say, take off or add launchers to the panel...that is right now...it hasn't been added in yet...again have to keep reminding you....this is in alpha!..it is sort of like the foundation of the building has been built but the building itself hasn't been constructed yet...You WILL be able to do those things and many more as it is developed... :wink:

It would be like looking at that building foundation and saying...well, it doesn't have any floors...or offices, or elevators....that's right...because they haven't been CONSTRUCTED YET :lol:

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Re: Another DE option for Mint 12 - Cinnamon

Post by Joe_Linux »

MALsPa wrote:
z06gal wrote:There is simply not a bad desktop environment in my opinion.
The way I figure it, there are always good reasons why some people like using a certain DE or WM (or shell, I guess), and so I figure I might as well spend some time with it and find out why those people like it. So far, I've never come away thinking, "This one's no good" or whatever. Maybe I'm just too easy to please.

I wouldn't be using Mint if it weren't for Unity. It's Unity that forced me to Cinnamon. I find Gnome Shell to be a very immature and inadequate DE. The extensions help, but they too are not very flexible. You can add them, but you cannot customize them unless you are a programmer. Some Extensions are so large they knock others off the panels. In general the fonts are too small for me, and you can't resize the panels like you could before. In my opinion KDE3 and Gnome 2 are the best windowing environments. I have a Droid, but I don't really care for the user interface at all.

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