Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

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Lumikki
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by Lumikki »

bimsebasse wrote:Definitely won't happen, development on MGSE stopped several months ago - it will be MATE or Cinnamon.
I can understand that mate and cinnamon is in Mint 13. But Mint 13's default DE has to be Gnome 3 based DE.

Mint 12 moved to Gnome 3. Mate is still build around Gnome 2. Why would any new distribution start going backward in time. That doesn't make any sense at all.

If Cinnamon isn't ready, then the developers has to choose some other Gnome 3 based DE for Mint 13 as default.
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by esteban1uy »

Lumikki wrote:If Cinnamon isn't ready, then the developers has to choose some other Gnome 3 based DE for Mint 13 as default.
Which one?

Both Gnome-shell and Unity are not the favorite desktops for most Mint users: http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=100787
Gnome fallback is somehow marked for deletion, and the same is valid for Unity 2D: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... px=MTA5OTA
Are there any other gnome3 based options?
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by henrydubb »

I hope both are released. I don't know if mint is unique in this regard but folks distros are all over the place. Each getting 20% or so. I have and love Cinnamon on my netbook, but MATE looked crappy. Have an old desktop and MATE looks great.

It would be great to have a look across MATE / Cinnamon with choice being determined by preference / computer. It is also important to remember this will be a 5 year LTS and M13 needs to give older distros an incentive to upgrade.
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by Lumikki »

esteban1uy wrote:
Lumikki wrote:If Cinnamon isn't ready, then the developers has to choose some other Gnome 3 based DE for Mint 13 as default.
Which one?

Are there any other gnome3 based options?
That is good question.
For Mint 13's default DE there isn't really any other good Gnome 3 based DE than Cinnamon.
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by Shibblet »

Maybe I am missing the whole idea here. But all of the DE's are Gnome 3 based, correct? Cinnamon, MATE, and MGSE?

MATE is maintained by a different group than Linux Mint, and can be used on other distributions.

Cinnamon and MGSE are the two interfaces that Mint maintains. And if one is to be dropped in favor of the other, I would say to go with Cinnamon instead, as it and MGSE are very similar, and Cinnamon is obviously the next evelution of MGSE.

Mint, unlike Ubuntu, doesn't limit itself to a 700meg CD, and could include MATE, Cinnamon, and Gnome 3 Shell. I know that with Mint Lisa 12, the package (download) size of Cinnamon is only ~15 megs. And all of the above are built on Gnome 3, so that is going to be included by default.

The main reason I switched to Mint from Ubuntu is because of the better interface, I prefer Standard Gnome 3 Shell, MGSE, and Cinnamon over Unity. That and Clem seems to listen to his users, and is building an interface that we all want and like. I believe this is why Mint has over doubled the hits on distrowatch.com over Ubuntu.

Anyway, I personally think that MGSE and Cinnamon are soon to be the same interface, and that MATE is something people like, and all of which are built on Gnome-3. So, why not include Cinnamon, MATE and Gnome-Shell on the ISO image? Heck, you could allow the user to pick a (default) interface during install. The other two would be installed, of course, and could be selected at any time... we all like to play with new interfaces from time to time.
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by esteban1uy »

Shibblet wrote:Maybe I am missing the whole idea here. But all of the DE's are Gnome 3 based, correct? Cinnamon, MATE, and MGSE?
Not really. MGSE (Gnome-shell), Unity and Cinnamon are Gnome3 based shells (not DE by themselves, but shells on top of Gnome3 base).
MATE is a fork of Gnome 2.32.
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by Shibblet »

esteban1uy wrote:
Shibblet wrote:Maybe I am missing the whole idea here. But all of the DE's are Gnome 3 based, correct? Cinnamon, MATE, and MGSE?
Not really. MGSE (Gnome-shell), Unity and Cinnamon are Gnome3 based shells (not DE by themselves, but shells on top of Gnome3 base).
MATE is a fork of Gnome 2.32.
Maybe I should have said "Interface" instead of "DE" or "Desktop Environment".
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by realitykid »

I still consider Cinnamon to be a desktop environment.
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by Shibblet »

realitykid wrote:I still consider Cinnamon to be a desktop environment.
What esteban1uy meant was that shells like Cinnamon and Unity are built on the Gnome 3 "environment".
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by cwwgateway »

The Mint 13 Maya MATE (32 and 64 bit) ISOs are being tested now and, interestingly, there isn't a Cinnamon one right now. My guess is that there won't be a Cinnamon ISO until Cinnamon 1.5 and hopefully llvmpipe. Also, the MATE ISOs don't say build CD or build DVD, so (like I said before with the mint-meta-mate vs mint-meta-cinnamon and mint-meta-cinnamon-dvd) it looks from that like Cinnamon will be default with both DVD and CD versions. I might have it opposite though, it's all just guessing :D .
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by esteban1uy »

Maybe this infographic on Cinnamon/Gnome-shell can help:
Image
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by esteban1uy »

cwwgateway wrote:My guess is that there won't be a Cinnamon ISO until Cinnamon 1.5 and hopefully llvmpipe.
I'm not sure about llvmpipe.
I tested Cinnamon without GPU 3D support using the current Ubuntu Precise llvmpipe implementation and it is extremely glitchy. Then I installed Cinnamon in Ubuntu Quantal (12.10) and, without 3D support but with llvmpipe, it's equally unusable.
I think Ubuntu's developers are waiting for the Fedora's guys to finish their Gnome-shell and llvmpipe tweaking, then they will "translate" those patches (to mesa, llvm, gnome-session, clutter, kernel, etc.) to Ubuntu Quantal in order to drop Unity 2D.
Unless Mint developers go ahead and directly ask Fedora's (RedHat) how did they do to get their amazing implementation of gnome-shell without 3D hardware support... no Cinnamon+llvmpipe for Mint in the short term.
Maybe for Mint 14.
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by cwwgateway »

esteban1uy wrote:
cwwgateway wrote:My guess is that there won't be a Cinnamon ISO until Cinnamon 1.5 and hopefully llvmpipe.
I'm not sure about llvmpipe.
I tested Cinnamon without GPU 3D support using the current Ubuntu Precise llvmpipe implementation and it is extremely glitchy. Then I installed Cinnamon in Ubuntu Quantal (12.10) and, without 3D support but with llvmpipe, it's equally unusable.
I think Ubuntu's developers are waiting for the Fedora's guys to finish their Gnome-shell and llvmpipe tweaking, then they will "translate" those patches (to mesa, llvm, gnome-session, clutter, kernel, etc.) to Ubuntu Quantal in order to drop Unity 2D.
Unless Mint developers go ahead and directly ask Fedora's (RedHat) how did they do to get their amazing implementation of gnome-shell without 3D hardware support... no Cinnamon+llvmpipe for Mint in the short term.
Maybe for Mint 14.
Well, I can still hope :wink: . Basically what I was saying was that until the mint team has Cinnamon 1.5 ready and is satisfied that they have done all that they can do in regards to llvmpipe.
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by esteban1uy »

cwwgateway wrote:Well, I can still hope :wink: . Basically what I was saying was that until the mint team has Cinnamon 1.5 ready and is satisfied that they have done all that they can do in regards to llvmpipe.
Yes, that's true.
On the other hand, considering that there won't be a Cinnamon+llvmpipe implementation... what would be the fallback mode?
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by realitykid »

Personally, I don't care if Cinnamon requires 3D acceleration in Mint 13. Sure, I hope they will have it by at least 14 so that way those who don't have 3D acceleration can use it. However, I hope that this goal won't hold them back from releasing Mint 13 for very long. I guess we will see what happens. :) If I have to, I can always install Cinnamon in Mint 13.
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by cwwgateway »

esteban1uy wrote:
cwwgateway wrote:Well, I can still hope :wink: . Basically what I was saying was that until the mint team has Cinnamon 1.5 ready and is satisfied that they have done all that they can do in regards to llvmpipe.
Yes, that's true.
On the other hand, considering that there won't be a Cinnamon+llvmpipe implementation... what would be the fallback mode?
The Gnome Classic Mode (which is the Gnome Fallback Mode). It actually looks decent in Ubuntu 12.04 (although I'm using hardware acceleration).
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by cwwgateway »

There's a new cinnamon-themes package that installs the following themes: Ambiance Mint, Loki, Dark Shuffle,Eleganse, ElementaryOS, Glass-shell, Gnome, Greybiance, Holo, Baldr, ICS, Mictlan, Minty, Nightlife-Graphite, Nightlife-Mint, OMG, Right, and White. It's possible that there will be packages like this for applets and extensions, too.
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by Shibblet »

It's long been talked about Mint forking off from Ubuntu, and every release of Mint, is one step further away. And as appearances are the most important way to make a first impression, Cinnamon is designed to make a better first impression than Unity.

Mint is a much easier step for people to make when transitioning from Windows to Linux. The Cinnamon interface is a lot simpler to operate, and isn't a "dramatic" change from the Windows Start Menu system. It is very different in it's own right though, but the layout will keep users more comfortable. Unity is a dramatic change. Maybe not for Mac Users, but for Windows users, it definitely is.

So, Cinnamon is going to be a main factor in what makes Mint different from Ubuntu. I say Clem should keep pushing forward with Cinnamon the same way Canonical keeps pushing forward with Unity.
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by realitykid »

Shibblet wrote:It's long been talked about Mint forking off from Ubuntu, and every release of Mint, is one step further away. And as appearances are the most important way to make a first impression, Cinnamon is designed to make a better first impression than Unity.

Mint is a much easier step for people to make when transitioning from Windows to Linux. The Cinnamon interface is a lot simpler to operate, and isn't a "dramatic" change from the Windows Start Menu system. It is very different in it's own right though, but the layout will keep users more comfortable. Unity is a dramatic change. Maybe not for Mac Users, but for Windows users, it definitely is.

So, Cinnamon is going to be a main factor in what makes Mint different from Ubuntu. I say Clem should keep pushing forward with Cinnamon the same way Canonical keeps pushing forward with Unity.
I agree. To me, Cinnamon is much better than Unity. I'm not saying that Unity doesn't have its place, but it surely isn't on my computer(s). Hell, I prefer Cinnamon over MGSE. No offense, but I found MGSE to be kind of a joke. But, at least it wasn't Unity. lol
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Re: Cinnamon to be default in Mint 13?

Post by Shibblet »

realitykid wrote:I agree. To me, Cinnamon is much better than Unity. I'm not saying that Unity doesn't have its place, but it surely isn't on my computer(s). Hell, I prefer Cinnamon over MGSE. No offense, but I found MGSE to be kind of a joke. But, at least it wasn't Unity. lol
To me, MGSE seemed like a transitional step. It was a way to keep the "Mint Interface" idea alive, while embracing the new options of Gnome 3. I'd like to give Clem a high-five for keeping with the "Mint Traditional" interface, which we are all very comfortable with, while bringing in a completely new Desktop Environment.

So, MGSE was the first step toward Cinnamon. If you use Cinnamon, and have used MGSE, you can see how similar they are. Remember the stages of creative evolution. Without Brahms or Mozart, there'd be no Metallica.

Metallica <-- Death Metal <-- Heavy Metal <-- Metal <-- Hard Rock <-- Progressive Rock <-- Rock & Roll <-- Blues <-- Big Band <-- Jazz <-- Classical
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