Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

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dtoffe
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Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by dtoffe » Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:55 pm

Hi all,

I'm planning to update my Mint 15 and tempted to go LMDE instead of Mint 16 so I get the benefits of a semi-rolling distro and hopefully don't have to reinstall for a long time. I've already used Debian testing for a couple of years, but was long time ago, long before Ubuntu was born. Now, I see this comparison in the LMDE page:
Cons:

LMDE requires a deeper knowledge and experience with Linux, dpkg and APT.
Debian is a less user-friendly/desktop-ready base than Ubuntu. Expect some rough edges.
So I ask:

1- Surely LMDE has some Software Install feature besides dpkg, right ?
2- What Ubuntu-based software or feature would I miss by going LMDE ?
3- If LMDE includes Cinnamon, Mint Menu, where is the difference between them noticeable ?

Thanks !

Daniel

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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by passerby » Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:28 pm

1. Yes. You'll still have aptitude and Synaptic, not sure about mintInstall.
2. I think anything Ubuntu-specific, such as the Ubuntu Software Center. Really nothing that you'd miss.
3. If you mean the difference between Cinnamon/mintMenu on LMDE and Mint, it'd just be the version. If you mean in general... same deal: LMDE ships with older software than Mint and takes a while to catch up.

I don't find LMDE lacking in software, more difficult to use than Mint, or that it requires deep knowledge to use. The real cons are:
-Incompatible with Ubuntu PPAs
-Older software
-Infrequent updates
2 and 3 can be solved by adding the Debian Testing or Unstable repos, but in regards to the default install, those are IMO the cons.
Home PC: Xubuntu 14.04 x64, Nvidia GTX650, i7 3770K, 16GB RAM, Asus Xonar DX
Work PC: Mint 13 x64 XFCE, Nvidia GT620, i5 3470, 8GB RAM
Laptop: System76 Kudu Pro, Xubuntu 14.04 x64

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dtoffe
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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by dtoffe » Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:35 pm

I don't mind using software versions a year old or so, if I can keep my system upgrading regularly without reinstalling, and "regularly" is relative, two or three times a year would be enough for me. Pointing to Testing would mean to get (almost) daily upgrades, too much for my needs.
I love Mint 15 Cinnamon and if LMDE is roughly similar, I'll go for it. Just wanted to know for sure what software pieces in Mint are not available in LMDE.

Thanks,

Daniel

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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by Monsta » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:57 am

Software Manager (mintInstall) is present in LMDE. What's absent is mintDrivers and mintSources. Sources lists can be edited with the classic software-properties-gtk tool or just with any text editor. Additional drivers can be managed by DDM, but I don't recommend using it as it's buggy and outdated in LMDE.

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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by cmost » Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:04 pm

LMDE Cinnamon with UP8 is just about on par with Mint Cinnamon 16 except that its also faster, (semi) rolling and fully Debian compatible. :D
Dual Intel Xeon 3.6 GHz, 24 Cores
86.5 GB DDR3 RAM
nVidia GeForce GTX 660
Linux Mint 18.2 MATE 1.18 +Compiz
Kernel 4.09 LTS

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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by kurotsugi » Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:26 pm

in my experience even if LMDE using same cinnamon version with the one in mint main version, LMDE version tends to buggier and cause more problem. this trend seems not changed in UP8.

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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by Crewp » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:00 pm

kurotsugi wrote:in my experience even if LMDE using same cinnamon version with the one in mint main version, LMDE version tends to buggier and cause more problem. this trend seems not changed in UP8.
I do not agree, I find LMDE stable, and Cinnamon behaves very well. :)
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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by kurotsugi » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:35 am

well...that's your experience. I've been playing with mint14, mint15, LMDE and have different experience.
on current LMDE (UP7 - cinnamon 1.8 ) :
1. cinnamon control center have duplicated setting with gnome control center
2. mint main version have removed gnome control center and cinnamon control center have lot much options.
3. gnome screensaver not removed by default even though cinnamon have cinnamon-control center. I need to remove it manually after upgrade
4. applet sometimes didn't work
5. upgrade applet sometimes causing crash
6. long delay between MDM login and cinnamon fully loaded
7. battery applet stopped functioning
8. cinnamon conflicted with gjs

I never experienced these issue on mint main version. on main version, gnome control center is fully replaced by cinnamon control center. gnome screensaver also removed and replaced with cinnamon screensaver by default.

I'm not using cinnamon 2.0 but i saw several report saying:
1. the delay got longer
2. cinnamon still drag a lot of gnome package
3. duplicated menu item

by cinnamon 2.0 I mean the one maintained by mint team. if you build cinnamon from github the result will likely different.

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killer de bug
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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by killer de bug » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:13 am

kurotsugi wrote:well...that's your experience. I've been playing with mint14, mint15, LMDE and have different experience.
on current LMDE (UP7 - cinnamon 1.8 ) :
1. cinnamon control center have duplicated setting with gnome control center
2. mint main version have removed gnome control center and cinnamon control center have lot much options.
Due to libs missing in LMDE, Clem had announced long time ago that Cinnamon-control-center would only be fully working with Cinnamon 2.0 in LMDE.
Now it's working nicely (UP8 brings Cinnamon 2.0)
kurotsugi wrote: 3. gnome screensaver not removed by default even though cinnamon have cinnamon-control center. I need to remove it manually after upgrade
Why would your system delete software you may want to use? If you want to use Cinnamon and Gnome-shell for example... You need to remove it manually.

kurotsugi wrote: 6. long delay between MDM login and cinnamon fully loaded
That's right. I am wondering about using SLIM to see if things change.

kurotsugi wrote: 8. cinnamon conflicted with gjs

No more true with Cinnamon 2.0. But is it really the fault of Mint team or is it because Debian is rolling? :wink:
kurotsugi wrote: I never experienced these issue on mint main version. on main version, gnome control center is fully replaced by cinnamon control center. gnome screensaver also removed and replaced with cinnamon screensaver by default.

Cinnamon 1.8 was made exactly for Mint 15. Try it with Mint 13 and we will discuss this point again.
kurotsugi wrote: I'm not using cinnamon 2.0 but i saw several report saying:
1. the delay got longer
2. cinnamon still drag a lot of gnome package
3. duplicated menu item
For the delay it's true.
For the packages, you can remove them easily.
For the duplicated menu item, it's only because you didn't remove gnome control center. :wink:
Last edited by killer de bug on Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.

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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by kurotsugi » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:03 am

Due to libs missing in LMDE, Clem had announced long time ago that Cinnamon-control-center would only be fully working with Cinnamon 2.0 in LMDE.
No it's working nicely (UP8 brings Cinnamon 2.0)
upon cinnamon installation attempt, it will install these package

Code: Select all

cinnamon cinnamon-common{a} cinnamon-desktop-data{a} 
  cinnamon-screensaver{a} cinnamon-session{a} cinnamon-session-common{a}  
  cinnamon-settings-daemon{a} cinnamon-translations{a}
I see no cinnamon control center here. you might actually using gnome control center as shown here

Code: Select all

gnome-applets{a} gnome-applets-data{a} gnome-bluetooth{a} 
  gnome-contacts{a} gnome-control-center{a} gnome-control-center-data{a} 
  gnome-desktop3-data{a} gnome-media{a} gnome-menus{a} 
  gnome-online-accounts{a} gnome-panel{a} gnome-panel-data{a} 
  gnome-power-manager{a} gnome-screensaver{a} gnome-session{a} 
  gnome-session-bin{a} gnome-session-common{a} gnome-session-flashback{a} 
  gnome-settings-daemon{a} gnome-shell{a} gnome-shell-common{a} 
  gnome-sushi{a} gnome-system-monitor{a} gnome-terminal{a} 
as we can see, cinnamon installation will also full gnome DE too. cinnamon 2.0 should be less depend on gnome package but as you can see, the dependency got worse. as far as I can remember cinnamon 1.8 didn't require gnome full installation.
Why would your system delete software you may want to use? If you want to use Cinnamon and Gnome-shell for example... You need to remove it manually.

gnome-screensaver and cinnamon-screensaver are conflicted. only one screensaver can run at one time. since we have better cinnamon screensaver, gnome ones is not needed. I don't know why we should install two screensaver if only one of them is functional. gnome shell is a different case since we need it to run cinnamon. cinnamon 1.8 on LMDE won't work without gnome shell
That's right. I am wondering about using SLIM to see if things change.
this bug comes from muffin. I've tried using lightdm but I got same result.
Cinnamon 1.8 was made exactly for Mint 15. Try it with Mint 13 and we will discuss this point again.
it simply not installable on mint13. the dependency won't get satisfied. my cinnamon 1.8 experience is comes from mint 15 and LMDE. discussing mint13 which didn't have cinnamon 1.8 is way out of topic.
For the delay it's true.
For the packages, you can remove them easily.
For the duplicated menu item, it's only because you didn't remove gnome control center.
we have a little experiment with cinnamon 2.0 on debian testing and it seems that cinnamon 2.0 on LMDE is still heavily depends on gnome. removing gnome components will make cinnamon not functioning. if these gnome package are really easily and safely removed why should we have to install them in first place?

EDIT: for comparison, here is output of 'aptitude show cinnamon' on petra

Code: Select all

Package: cinnamon
Version: 2.0.14+petra
Architecture: amd64
Maintainer: Linux Mint <root@linuxmint.com>
Installed-Size: 2985
Depends: gir1.2-clutter-1.0, gir1.2-glib-2.0, gir1.2-gmenu-3.0, gir1.2-gtk-3.0, gir1.2-muffin-3.0, gir1.2-networkmanager-1.0, gir1.2-soup-2.4, cjs, gnome-bluetooth (>= 3.0.0), libatk1.0-0 (>= 1.12.4), libc6 (>= 2.14), libcairo2 (>= 1.10.0), libcanberra0 (>= 0.2), libcinnamon-desktop0 (>= 2.0.3+petra), libcjs0-libmozjs185-1.0, libcjs0c (>= 2.0.0+petra), libclutter-1.0-0 (>= 1.10.0), libcogl-pango12 (>= 1.7.4), libcogl12 (>= 1.9.6), libcroco3 (>= 0.6.2), libdbus-glib-1-2 (>= 0.78), libgdk-pixbuf2.0-0 (>= 2.22.0), libgirepository-1.0-1 (>= 0.9.2), libgl1-mesa-glx | libgl1, libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.37.3), libgnome-menu-3-0 (>= 3.2.0.1), libgstreamer0.10-0 (>= 0.10.20), libgtk-3-0 (>= 3.0.0), libmozjs185-1.0 (>= 1.8.5-1.0.0+dfsg), libmuffin0, libpango-1.0-0 (>= 1.14.0), libpangocairo-1.0-0 (>= 1.14.0), libpulse-mainloop-glib0 (>= 1:0.99.1), libpulse0 (>= 1:0.99.1), libstartup-notification0 (>= 0.11), libx11-6, libxfixes3 (>= 1:5.0), libxml2 (>= 2.7.4), dconf-gsettings-backend | gsettings-backend, cinnamon-common (= 2.0.14+petra), cinnamon-translations, cinnamon-control-center | gnome-control-center, caribou, cups-pk-helper, cinnamon-settings-daemon, cinnamon-session, cinnamon-desktop-data (>= 1.0.0), gnome-icon-theme-symbolic (>= 2.91), gir1.2-accountsservice-1.0, gir1.2-gconf-2.0, gir1.2-gkbd-3.0, gir1.2-gnomebluetooth-1.0, gir1.2-polkit-1.0, gir1.2-upowerglib-1.0, gir1.2-gtkclutter-1.0, gir1.2-javascriptcoregtk-3.0, gir1.2-webkit-3.0, python, python-dbus, python-gconf, python-imaging, python-opencv, python-gtk2, python-pam, pkg-config, mesa-utils, python-lxml, gkbd-capplet, python-pyinotify, metacity, gnome-panel | tint2
Recommends: gnome-themes-standard, gnome-terminal, nemo, cinnamon-screensaver, gnome-session-bin, gir1.2-cjsdbus-1.0, cinnamon-bluetooth
Provides: notification-daemon, x-window-manager
Section: gnome
Priority: optional
Homepage: http://cinnamon.linuxmint.com
Description: Cinnamon desktop
 Cinnamon redefines user interactions with the GNOME desktop.
 In particular, it offers new paradigms for launching applications,
 accessing documents, and organizing open windows in GNOME. Later, it
 will introduce a new applets eco-system and offer new solutions for
 other desktop features, such as notifications and contacts
 management. Cinnamon is intended to replace functions handled
 by the GNOME Panel and by the window manager in previous versions of
 GNOME. Cinnamon has rich visual effects enabled by new
 graphical technologies.

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killer de bug
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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by killer de bug » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:23 am

kurotsugi wrote:
Due to libs missing in LMDE, Clem had announced long time ago that Cinnamon-control-center would only be fully working with Cinnamon 2.0 in LMDE.
Now it's working nicely (UP8 brings Cinnamon 2.0)
upon cinnamon installation attempt, it will install these package

Code: Select all

cinnamon cinnamon-common{a} cinnamon-desktop-data{a} 
  cinnamon-screensaver{a} cinnamon-session{a} cinnamon-session-common{a}  
  cinnamon-settings-daemon{a} cinnamon-translations{a}
I see no cinnamon control center here. you might actually using gnome control center as shown here
:shock: I just said that Control center was not working before 2.0...
Read the first 3 comments here : http://segfault.linuxmint.com/2013/05/cinnamon-1-8/
kurotsugi wrote: as we can see, cinnamon installation will also full gnome DE too. cinnamon 2.0 should be less depend on gnome package but as you can see, the dependency got worse. as far as I can remember cinnamon 1.8 didn't require gnome full installation.
I'm sure you wrong on this one. Cinnamon 1.8 was just an other shell. So you need all gnome libs to use it.
Cinnamon 2.0 has some own libs and rely less on Gnome...

I'm using Cinnamon 2.0 since November and I can assure you I was able to suppress some gnome libs without breakage...

kurotsugi wrote: it simply not installable on mint13. the dependency won't get satisfied. my cinnamon 1.8 experience is comes from mint 15 and LMDE. discussing mint13 which didn't have cinnamon 1.8 is way out of topic.
Again you are wrong. Cinnamon 1.8 and 2.0 have been backported to Mint13. So my advise was absolutely not out of topic.
And again, Mint 13 doesn't have the Cinnamon control center in Cinnamon 1.8. And again Cinnamon 1.8 was better integrated with Mint 15 than Mint 13...
http://segfault.linuxmint.com/2013/05/cinnamon-1-8/
http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=2524
http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=2465


kurotsugi wrote:we have a little experiment with cinnamon 2.0 on debian testing and it seems that cinnamon 2.0 on LMDE is still heavily depends on gnome. removing gnome components will make cinnamon not functioning. if these gnome package are really easily and safely removed why should we have to install them in first place?
1) First LMDE and Debian Testing are not exactly the same. And before 2.0, Cinnamon was known to be unusable with Debian Sid and Testing due to changing libs.

2) Read this :

Code: Select all

2014.01.13
The following packages are no longer needed in the Cinnamon edition:

gnome-session-common gnome-utils-common gnome-colors-common gnome-control-center nautilus gnome-screensaver gnome-sushi gnome-session-fallback gnome-session-bin gnome-session-flashback gnome-session-fallback gnome-themes gnome-user-guide gnome-control-center-data gnome-wise-icon-theme
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.

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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by kurotsugi » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:38 am

I just said that Control center was not working before 2.0...
Read the first 3 comments here : http://segfault.linuxmint.com/2013/05/cinnamon-1-8/
my bad...my explanation makes you think that I'm trying to install cinnamon 1.8. sorry for that mistake. actually, it was copied from an atempt to install cinnamon 2.0. when I tried to install cinnamon I see no cinnamon-control-panel package installed. I think I should show all of it to avoid further missunderstanding. this is a simulation when I tried to install cinnamon 2.0

Code: Select all

kurotsugi@kurozv3:~$ apt-cache policy cinnamon
cinnamon:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: 2.0.14+lmde
  Version table:
     2.0.14+lmde 0
        500 http://packages.linuxmint.com/ debian/incoming amd64 Packages
     1.8.8+lmde 0
        500 http://packages.linuxmint.com/ debian/main amd64 Packages
kurotsugi@kurozv3:~$ aptitude -s install cinnamon
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  alacarte{a} apache2-bin{a} apg{a} bluez{a} caribou{a} cheese-common{a} 
  cinnamon cinnamon-common{a} cinnamon-desktop-data{a} 
  cinnamon-screensaver{a} cinnamon-session{a} cinnamon-session-common{a} 
  cinnamon-settings-daemon{a} cinnamon-translations{a} cjs{a} 
  cracklib-runtime{a} dconf-cli{a} evolution-data-server{a} 
  evolution-data-server-common{a} folks-common{a} gdm3{a} 
  gir1.2-accountsservice-1.0{a} gir1.2-atspi-2.0{a} gir1.2-caribou-1.0{a} 
  gir1.2-clutter-gst-2.0{a} gir1.2-evince-3.0{a} gir1.2-gck-1{a} 
  gir1.2-gconf-2.0{a} gir1.2-gcr-3{a} gir1.2-gdesktopenums-3.0{a} 
  gir1.2-gdm3{a} gir1.2-gkbd-3.0{a} gir1.2-gnomebluetooth-1.0{a} 
  gir1.2-gnomedesktop-3.0{a} gir1.2-gst-plugins-base-1.0{a} 
  gir1.2-gstreamer-1.0{a} gir1.2-gtkclutter-1.0{a} gir1.2-gtksource-3.0{a} 
  gir1.2-ibus-1.0{a} gir1.2-javascriptcoregtk-3.0{a} gir1.2-muffin-3.0{a} 
  gir1.2-mutter-3.0{a} gir1.2-networkmanager-1.0{a} gir1.2-nmgtk-1.0{a} 
  gir1.2-panelapplet-4.0{a} gir1.2-soup-2.4{a} gir1.2-telepathyglib-0.12{a} 
  gir1.2-telepathylogger-0.2{a} gir1.2-upowerglib-1.0{a} 
  gir1.2-webkit-3.0{a} gir1.2-xkl-1.0{a} gjs{a} gkbd-capplet{a} 
  gnome-applets{a} gnome-applets-data{a} gnome-bluetooth{a} 
  gnome-contacts{a} gnome-control-center{a} gnome-control-center-data{a} 
  gnome-desktop3-data{a} gnome-media{a} gnome-menus{a} 
  gnome-online-accounts{a} gnome-panel{a} gnome-panel-data{a} 
  gnome-power-manager{a} gnome-screensaver{a} gnome-session{a} 
  gnome-session-bin{a} gnome-session-common{a} gnome-session-flashback{a} 
  gnome-settings-daemon{a} gnome-shell{a} gnome-shell-common{a} 
  gnome-sushi{a} gnome-system-monitor{a} gnome-terminal{a} 
  gnome-terminal-data{a} gnome-user-guide{a} gnome-user-share{a} hwdata{a} 
  libapache2-mod-dnssd{a} libapr1{a} libaprutil1{a} 
  libaprutil1-dbd-sqlite3{a} libaprutil1-ldap{a} libatk-adaptor{a} 
  libcamel-1.2-43{a} libcanberra-gtk-module{a} libcanberra-gtk0{a} 
  libcaribou-common{a} libcaribou0{a} libcheese-gtk23{a} libcheese7{a} 
  libcinnamon-desktop0{a} libcjs0c{a} libcolord-gtk1{a} libcpufreq0{a} 
  libcrack2{a} libdee-1.0-4{a} libebackend-1.2-6{a} libebook-1.2-14{a} 
  libebook-contacts-1.2-0{a} libecal-1.2-15{a} libedata-book-1.2-17{a} 
  libedata-cal-1.2-20{a} libedataserver-1.2-17{a} libexempi3{a} 
  libfolks-eds25{a} libfolks-telepathy25{a} libfolks25{a} libgail-common{a} 
  libgail18{a} libgdata-common{a} libgdata13{a} libgdm1{a} libgee-0.8-2{a} 
  libgnome-desktop-3-7{a} libgnome-media-profiles-3.0-0{a} 
  libgnomekbd-common{a} libgnomekbd8{a} libgtksourceview-3.0-1{a} 
  libgtksourceview-3.0-common{a} libgucharmap-2-90-7{a} 
  libgupnp-av-1.0-2{a} libgupnp-dlna-2.0-3{a} libgweather-3-3{a} 
  libgweather-common{a} libibus-1.0-5{a} libmetacity-private0a{a} 
  libmission-control-plugins0{a} libmuffin0{a} libmusicbrainz5-0{a} 
  libmutter0b{a} libnemo-extension1{a} liboauth0{a} libopencv-photo2.4{a} 
  libpanel-applet-4-0{a} libpwquality-common{a} libpwquality1{a} 
  librest-extras-0.7-0{a} librygel-core-2.0-1{a} librygel-renderer-2.0-1{a} 
  librygel-server-2.0-1{a} libsocialweb-client2{a} libsocialweb-common{a} 
  libsocialweb-service{a} libsocialweb0{a} libtelepathy-glib0{a} 
  libtelepathy-logger3{a} libtracker-sparql-0.16-0{a} libunistring0{a} 
  libwacom-common{a} libwacom2{a} libwnck-3-0{a} libwnck-3-common{a} 
  libyelp0{a} libzeitgeist-1.0-1{a} libzeitgeist-2.0-0{a} metacity{a} 
  metacity-common{a} mousetweaks{a} muffin-common{a} mutter-common{a} 
  nautilus{a} nemo{a} nemo-data{a} nemo-fileroller{a} 
  notification-daemon{a} obexd-client{a} pkg-config{a} python-gconf{a} 
  python-lxml{a} python-opencv{a} python-pam{a} python-pyatspi{a} 
  python-pyinotify{a} python-zeitgeist{a} rygel{a} 
  telepathy-mission-control-5{a} ttf-dejavu{a} ttf-dejavu-core{a} 
  ttf-dejavu-extra{a} wamerican{a} yelp{a} yelp-xsl{a} zeitgeist{a} 
  zeitgeist-core{a} zeitgeist-datahub{a} 
0 packages upgraded, 189 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 98.5 MB/99.1 MB of archives. After unpacking 321 MB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] 
as we can see, no cinnamon control panel on that huge list.

anyway, let's forget about cinnamon control center. that's not our main point at this moment

Code: Select all

    2014.01.13
    The following packages are no longer needed in the Cinnamon edition:

    gnome-session-common gnome-utils-common gnome-colors-common gnome-control-center nautilus gnome-screensaver gnome-sushi gnome-session-fallback gnome-session-bin gnome-session-flashback gnome-session-fallback gnome-themes gnome-user-guide gnome-control-center-data gnome-wise-icon-theme
I'm well aware of it. indeed, these package is not needed anymore and theorically should not get installed when we want to install cinnamon. however, the reality is quite different. when I want to install cinnamon 2.0 on my system, it still want to install these package. unfortunately, any attempt to remove them will make cinnamon no longer function.
1) First LMDE and Debian Testing are not exactly the same. And before 2.0, Cinnamon was known to be unusable with Debian Sid and Testing due to changing libs.
I hope I have made it clear that I was trying to install cinnamon 2.0, not the old one. I'm upgrading my system on daily basis. thus, I can guarantee that we're using same gnome packages in our system. cinnamon 2.0 installation on debian testing is working quite fine with relatively small issue. my major concern is that (again):
1. it drag too much gnome package which actually not needed.
2. after it got installed we can't remove these useless gnome packages
as for the little experiment, http://forums.solydxk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2704

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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by Monsta » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:48 am

Guys, it seems to me that you both reported the issue with Cinnamon 2.0 pulling in Gnome packages in the UP8 feedback thread: [1], [2]. Why don't you remind Clem about it once more? :)

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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by killer de bug » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:55 am

kurotsugi wrote: I'm well aware of it. indeed, these package is not needed anymore and theorically should not get installed when we want to install cinnamon. however, the reality is quite different. when I want to install cinnamon 2.0 on my system, it still want to install these package. unfortunately, any attempt to remove them will make cinnamon no longer function.
Honnestly, I don't understand. See the list at the end of this post...

Code: Select all

KDB@KDB-laptop ~ $ apt policy gnome-shell
gnome-shell:
  Installé : (aucun)
  Candidat : 3.8.4-5
 Table de version :
     3.8.4-5 0
        500 http://debian.linuxmint.com/incoming/ testing/main amd64 Packages
KDB@KDB-laptop ~ $ apt policy gnome-session-common gnome-utils-common gnome-colors-common gnome-control-center nautilus gnome-screensaver gnome-sushi gnome-session-fallback gnome-session-bin gnome-session-flashback gnome-session-fallback gnome-themes gnome-user-guide gnome-control-center-data gnome-wise-icon-theme
gnome-session-common:
  Installé : (aucun)
  Candidat : 3.8.4-3
 Table de version :
     3.8.4-3 0
        500 http://debian.linuxmint.com/incoming/ testing/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
gnome-utils-common:
  Installé : (aucun)
  Candidat : (aucun)
 Table de version :
gnome-colors-common:
  Installé : (aucun)
  Candidat : 5.5.1-1
 Table de version :
     5.5.1-1 0
        500 http://debian.linuxmint.com/incoming/ testing/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
gnome-control-center:
  Installé : (aucun)
  Candidat : 1:3.8.3-4
 Table de version :
     1:3.8.3-4 0
        500 http://debian.linuxmint.com/incoming/ testing/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
nautilus:
  Installé : (aucun)
  Candidat : 3.8.2-2
 Table de version :
     3.8.2-2 0
        500 http://debian.linuxmint.com/incoming/ testing/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
gnome-screensaver:
  Installé : (aucun)
  Candidat : 3.6.1-1
 Table de version :
     3.6.1-1 0
        500 http://debian.linuxmint.com/incoming/ testing/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
gnome-sushi:
  Installé : (aucun)
  Candidat : 3.8.1-1
 Table de version :
     3.8.1-1 0
        500 http://debian.linuxmint.com/incoming/ testing/main amd64 Packages
gnome-session-fallback:
  Installé : (aucun)
  Candidat : 3.8.0-1
 Table de version :
     3.8.0-1 0
        500 http://debian.linuxmint.com/incoming/ testing/main amd64 Packages
gnome-session-bin:
  Installé : (aucun)
  Candidat : 3.8.4-3
 Table de version :
     3.8.4-3 0
        500 http://debian.linuxmint.com/incoming/ testing/main amd64 Packages
gnome-session-flashback:
  Installé : (aucun)
  Candidat : 3.8.0-1
 Table de version :
     3.8.0-1 0
        500 http://debian.linuxmint.com/incoming/ testing/main amd64 Packages
gnome-session-fallback:
  Installé : (aucun)
  Candidat : 3.8.0-1
 Table de version :
     3.8.0-1 0
        500 http://debian.linuxmint.com/incoming/ testing/main amd64 Packages
gnome-themes:
  Installé : (aucun)
  Candidat : 2.30.2-1
 Table de version :
     2.30.2-1 0
        500 http://debian.linuxmint.com/incoming/ testing/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
gnome-user-guide:
  Installé : (aucun)
  Candidat : 3.8.2-1
 Table de version :
     3.8.2-1 0
        500 http://debian.linuxmint.com/incoming/ testing/main amd64 Packages
gnome-control-center-data:
  Installé : (aucun)
  Candidat : 1:3.8.3-4
 Table de version :
     1:3.8.3-4 0
        500 http://debian.linuxmint.com/incoming/ testing/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
gnome-wise-icon-theme:
  Installé : (aucun)
  Candidat : 5.5.1-1
 Table de version :
     5.5.1-1 0
        500 http://debian.linuxmint.com/incoming/ testing/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
KDB@KDB-laptop ~ $ 

If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.

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killer de bug
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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by killer de bug » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:56 am

Monsta wrote:Guys, it seems to me that you both reported the issue with Cinnamon 2.0 pulling in Gnome packages in the UP8 feedback thread: [1], [2]. Why don't you remind Clem about it once more? :)
The problem is more that, when kurotsugi deletes these packages his system breaks... Not mine.
There should be an app, you're using and that I'm not. :(
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.

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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by kurotsugi » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:17 am

well...I guess most of us upgrade cinnamon and didn't realize this issue. my response just got ignored so I think I need a companion to help me explain it before I'm going back to that thread (I'm deeply sorry for these fuss) ^^v

anyway, I'm still trying to gain more information and find a way to fix this issue. it seems to me that the source of this issue lies on the cinnamon's dependency list. we might could remove one of these dependency to avoid those gnome package got installed on a clean system. the problem is...I'm not really sure which dependency should be removed.

Code: Select all

aptitude show cinnamon
Package: cinnamon                        
State: not installed
Version: 2.0.14+lmde
Priority: optional
Section: gnome
Maintainer: Linux Mint <root@linuxmint.com>
Architecture: amd64
Uncompressed Size: 3,044 k
Depends: gir1.2-clutter-1.0, gir1.2-glib-2.0, gir1.2-gmenu-3.0, gir1.2-gtk-3.0,
         gir1.2-muffin-3.0, gir1.2-networkmanager-1.0, gir1.2-soup-2.4, cjs,
         gnome-bluetooth (>= 3.0.0), libatk1.0-0 (>= 1.12.4), libc6 (>= 2.14),
         libcairo2 (>= 1.10.0), libcanberra0 (>= 0.2), libcinnamon-desktop0 (>=
         2.0.4+lmde), libcjs0-libmozjs185-1.0, libcjs0c (>= 2.0.0+lmde),
         libclutter-1.0-0 (>= 1.10.0), libcogl-pango12 (>= 1.7.4), libcogl12 (>=
         1.9.6), libcroco3 (>= 0.6.2), libdbus-glib-1-2 (>= 0.78),
         libgdk-pixbuf2.0-0 (>= 2.22.0), libgirepository-1.0-1 (>= 0.9.2),
         libgl1-mesa-glx | libgl1, libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.35.9), libgnome-menu-3-0
         (>= 3.2.0.1), libgstreamer0.10-0 (>= 0.10.20), libgtk-3-0 (>= 3.0.0),
         libmozjs185-1.0 (>= 1.8.5-1.0.0+dfsg), libmuffin0, libpango-1.0-0 (>=
         1.14.0), libpangocairo-1.0-0 (>= 1.14.0), libpulse-mainloop-glib0 (>=
         0.99.1), libpulse0 (>= 0.99.1), libstartup-notification0 (>= 0.11),
         libx11-6, libxfixes3 (>= 1:5.0), libxml2 (>= 2.7.4),
         dconf-gsettings-backend | gsettings-backend, cinnamon-common (=
         2.0.14+lmde), cinnamon-translations, cinnamon-control-center |
         gnome-control-center, caribou, cups-pk-helper,
         cinnamon-settings-daemon, cinnamon-session, cinnamon-desktop-data (>=
         1.0.0), gnome-icon-theme-symbolic (>= 2.91),
         gir1.2-accountsservice-1.0, gir1.2-gconf-2.0, gir1.2-gkbd-3.0,
         gir1.2-gnomebluetooth-1.0, gir1.2-polkit-1.0, gir1.2-upowerglib-1.0,
         gir1.2-gtkclutter-1.0, gir1.2-javascriptcoregtk-3.0, gir1.2-webkit-3.0,
         python, python-dbus, python-gconf, python-imaging, python-opencv,
         python-gtk2, python-pam, pkg-config, mesa-utils, python-lxml,
         gkbd-capplet, python-pyinotify, metacity, gnome-panel | tint2
Recommends: gnome-themes-standard, gnome-terminal, nemo, cinnamon-screensaver,
            gnome-session-bin, gir1.2-cjsdbus-1.0, cinnamon-bluetooth
Conflicts: cinnamon
Provides: notification-daemon, x-window-manager
Description: Cinnamon desktop
 Cinnamon redefines user interactions with the GNOME desktop. In particular, it
 offers new paradigms for launching applications, accessing documents, and
 organizing open windows in GNOME. Later, it will introduce a new applets
 eco-system and offer new solutions for other desktop features, such as
 notifications and contacts management. Cinnamon is intended to replace
 functions handled by the GNOME Panel and by the window manager in previous
 versions of GNOME. Cinnamon has rich visual effects enabled by new graphical
 technologies.
Homepage: http://cinnamon.linuxmint.com
it's information about LMDE's cinnamon. at this time I only saw gnome-control-center as a candidate to get removed. but, my feeling tells me that those gnome package is also dragged by something else. I'm not sure which one. what's your opinion, monsta?
The problem is more that, when kurotsugi deletes these packages his system breaks... Not mine.
There should be an app, you're using and that I'm not. :(
unfortunately not. you didn't got this issue since you already have earlier version cinnamon and cinnamon control center then upgraded it. the case will be different you didn't have these package. this issue will affect all user who didn't use cinnamon. thinks about LMDE user who use MATE, Gnome, LXDE, KDE, XFCE, Razor-Qt. the scope of this issue is bigger than what you think.

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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by Monsta » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:46 am

Well, I have a VM with Debian Testing handy...

Code: Select all

$ inxi -r
Repos:     Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list
           deb http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free
           deb-src http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free
           deb http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free
           deb-src http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free
           Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/mint.list
           deb http://packages.linuxmint.com/ debian main upstream import incoming
...and I just found out I had APT::Install-Recommends set to "true" all this time. What a shame, I always set it to false but forgot to do so in this VM. :) With that setting, an attempt to install Cinnamon results in pulling in a lot of Gnome stuff.

Code: Select all

$ cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99synaptic 
APT::Install-Recommends "true";

Code: Select all

$ sudo apt-get install cinnamon
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
  alacarte caribou cinnamon-bluetooth cinnamon-common cinnamon-control-center cinnamon-control-center-data
  cinnamon-desktop-data cinnamon-screensaver cinnamon-session cinnamon-session-common cinnamon-settings-daemon
  cinnamon-translations cjs dconf-cli evolution-data-server evolution-data-server-common file-roller folks-common gdm3
  gir1.2-accountsservice-1.0 gir1.2-atspi-2.0 gir1.2-caribou-1.0 gir1.2-cinnamondesktop-3.0 gir1.2-gck-1 gir1.2-gconf-2.0
  gir1.2-gcr-3 gir1.2-gdesktopenums-3.0 gir1.2-gdm3 gir1.2-gkbd-3.0 gir1.2-gmenu-3.0 gir1.2-gnomedesktop-3.0 gir1.2-ibus-1.0
  gir1.2-javascriptcoregtk-3.0 gir1.2-muffin-3.0 gir1.2-mutter-3.0 gir1.2-networkmanager-1.0 gir1.2-nmgtk-1.0
  gir1.2-panelapplet-4.0 gir1.2-polkit-1.0 gir1.2-soup-2.4 gir1.2-telepathyglib-0.12 gir1.2-telepathylogger-0.2
  gir1.2-upowerglib-1.0 gir1.2-webkit-3.0 gir1.2-xkl-1.0 gjs gnome-applets gnome-applets-data gnome-contacts gnome-media
  gnome-panel gnome-panel-data gnome-power-manager gnome-screensaver gnome-session gnome-session-bin gnome-session-common
  gnome-session-flashback gnome-shell gnome-shell-common gnome-system-monitor gnome-terminal gnome-terminal-data
  gnustep-base-common gnustep-base-runtime gnustep-common libatk-adaptor libatkmm-1.6-1 libcairomm-1.0-1 libcamel-1.2-43
  libcanberra-pulse libcaribou-common libcaribou0 libcinnamon-control-center1 libcinnamon-desktop0 libcjs0c libcpufreq0
  libdee-1.0-4 libebackend-1.2-6 libebook-1.2-14 libebook-contacts-1.2-0 libecal-1.2-15 libedata-book-1.2-17
  libedata-cal-1.2-20 libedataserver-1.2-17 libfolks-eds25 libfolks-telepathy25 libfolks25 libgail-common libgdata-common
  libgdata13 libgdm1 libglibmm-2.4-1c2a libgnome-media-profiles-3.0-0 libgnome-menu-3-0 libgnustep-base1.22 libgtkmm-3.0-1
  libgucharmap-2-90-7 libgweather-3-3 libgweather-common libmission-control-plugins0 libmuffin0 libmutter0b
  libnemo-extension1 liboauth0 libobjc4 libopencv-photo2.4 libpanel-applet-4-0 libpangomm-1.4-1 libtelepathy-glib0
  libtelepathy-logger3 libwebpdemux1 libwebpmux1 libwnck-3-0 libwnck-3-common libzeitgeist-1.0-1 libzeitgeist-2.0-0
  muffin-common mutter-common nemo nemo-data nemo-fileroller pkg-config python-gconf python-imaging python-lxml
  python-opencv python-pam python-pil python-pyatspi python-xdg python-zeitgeist telepathy-mission-control-5 unar
  xserver-xephyr zeitgeist zeitgeist-core zeitgeist-datahub
Suggested packages:
  evolution evolution-data-server-dbg arj lha lzip lzop ncompress rpm2cpio rzip sharutils unace unalz zoo gnome-orca tomboy
  gnustep-base-doc eog python-gnome2-doc python-lxml-dbg python-pil-doc python-pil-dbg telepathy-haze
Recommended packages:
  gir1.2-cjsdbus-1.0 systemd-services
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  alacarte caribou cinnamon cinnamon-bluetooth cinnamon-common cinnamon-control-center cinnamon-control-center-data
  cinnamon-desktop-data cinnamon-screensaver cinnamon-session cinnamon-session-common cinnamon-settings-daemon
  cinnamon-translations cjs dconf-cli evolution-data-server evolution-data-server-common file-roller folks-common gdm3
  gir1.2-accountsservice-1.0 gir1.2-atspi-2.0 gir1.2-caribou-1.0 gir1.2-cinnamondesktop-3.0 gir1.2-gck-1 gir1.2-gconf-2.0
  gir1.2-gcr-3 gir1.2-gdesktopenums-3.0 gir1.2-gdm3 gir1.2-gkbd-3.0 gir1.2-gmenu-3.0 gir1.2-gnomedesktop-3.0 gir1.2-ibus-1.0
  gir1.2-javascriptcoregtk-3.0 gir1.2-muffin-3.0 gir1.2-mutter-3.0 gir1.2-networkmanager-1.0 gir1.2-nmgtk-1.0
  gir1.2-panelapplet-4.0 gir1.2-polkit-1.0 gir1.2-soup-2.4 gir1.2-telepathyglib-0.12 gir1.2-telepathylogger-0.2
  gir1.2-upowerglib-1.0 gir1.2-webkit-3.0 gir1.2-xkl-1.0 gjs gnome-applets gnome-applets-data gnome-contacts gnome-media
  gnome-panel gnome-panel-data gnome-power-manager gnome-screensaver gnome-session gnome-session-bin gnome-session-common
  gnome-session-flashback gnome-shell gnome-shell-common gnome-system-monitor gnome-terminal gnome-terminal-data
  gnustep-base-common gnustep-base-runtime gnustep-common libatk-adaptor libatkmm-1.6-1 libcairomm-1.0-1 libcamel-1.2-43
  libcanberra-pulse libcaribou-common libcaribou0 libcinnamon-control-center1 libcinnamon-desktop0 libcjs0c libcpufreq0
  libdee-1.0-4 libebackend-1.2-6 libebook-1.2-14 libebook-contacts-1.2-0 libecal-1.2-15 libedata-book-1.2-17
  libedata-cal-1.2-20 libedataserver-1.2-17 libfolks-eds25 libfolks-telepathy25 libfolks25 libgail-common libgdata-common
  libgdata13 libgdm1 libglibmm-2.4-1c2a libgnome-media-profiles-3.0-0 libgnome-menu-3-0 libgnustep-base1.22 libgtkmm-3.0-1
  libgucharmap-2-90-7 libgweather-3-3 libgweather-common libmission-control-plugins0 libmuffin0 libmutter0b
  libnemo-extension1 liboauth0 libobjc4 libopencv-photo2.4 libpanel-applet-4-0 libpangomm-1.4-1 libtelepathy-glib0
  libtelepathy-logger3 libwebpdemux1 libwebpmux1 libwnck-3-0 libwnck-3-common libzeitgeist-1.0-1 libzeitgeist-2.0-0
  muffin-common mutter-common nemo nemo-data nemo-fileroller pkg-config python-gconf python-imaging python-lxml
  python-opencv python-pam python-pil python-pyatspi python-xdg python-zeitgeist telepathy-mission-control-5 unar
  xserver-xephyr zeitgeist zeitgeist-core zeitgeist-datahub
0 upgraded, 139 newly installed, 0 to remove and 3 not upgraded.
Need to get 65.3 MB of archives.
After this operation, 220 MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
Now setting it to false...

Code: Select all

$ cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99synaptic 
APT::Install-Recommends "false";

Code: Select all

$ sudo apt-get install cinnamon
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
  caribou cinnamon-common cinnamon-desktop-data cinnamon-session cinnamon-session-common cinnamon-settings-daemon
  cinnamon-translations cjs evolution-data-server-common gir1.2-accountsservice-1.0 gir1.2-atspi-2.0 gir1.2-caribou-1.0
  gir1.2-cinnamondesktop-3.0 gir1.2-gconf-2.0 gir1.2-gkbd-3.0 gir1.2-gmenu-3.0 gir1.2-javascriptcoregtk-3.0
  gir1.2-muffin-3.0 gir1.2-networkmanager-1.0 gir1.2-polkit-1.0 gir1.2-soup-2.4 gir1.2-upowerglib-1.0 gir1.2-webkit-3.0
  gir1.2-xkl-1.0 gnome-panel gnome-panel-data libatk-adaptor libcamel-1.2-43 libcaribou-common libcaribou0
  libcinnamon-desktop0 libcjs0c libecal-1.2-15 libedataserver-1.2-17 libgail-common libgnome-menu-3-0 libgweather-3-3
  libgweather-common libmuffin0 libopencv-photo2.4 libpanel-applet-4-0 libtelepathy-glib0 libwebpdemux1 libwebpmux1
  libwnck-3-0 libwnck-3-common muffin-common nemo-data pkg-config python-gconf python-imaging python-lxml python-opencv
  python-pam python-pil python-pyatspi
Suggested packages:
  python-gnome2-doc python-lxml-dbg python-pil-doc python-pil-dbg
Recommended packages:
  gnome-terminal nemo cinnamon-screensaver gnome-session-bin gir1.2-cjsdbus-1.0 cinnamon-bluetooth systemd-services alacarte
  evolution-data-server gnome-applets gnome-session gnome-session-flashback
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  caribou cinnamon cinnamon-common cinnamon-desktop-data cinnamon-session cinnamon-session-common cinnamon-settings-daemon
  cinnamon-translations cjs evolution-data-server-common gir1.2-accountsservice-1.0 gir1.2-atspi-2.0 gir1.2-caribou-1.0
  gir1.2-cinnamondesktop-3.0 gir1.2-gconf-2.0 gir1.2-gkbd-3.0 gir1.2-gmenu-3.0 gir1.2-javascriptcoregtk-3.0
  gir1.2-muffin-3.0 gir1.2-networkmanager-1.0 gir1.2-polkit-1.0 gir1.2-soup-2.4 gir1.2-upowerglib-1.0 gir1.2-webkit-3.0
  gir1.2-xkl-1.0 gnome-panel gnome-panel-data libatk-adaptor libcamel-1.2-43 libcaribou-common libcaribou0
  libcinnamon-desktop0 libcjs0c libecal-1.2-15 libedataserver-1.2-17 libgail-common libgnome-menu-3-0 libgweather-3-3
  libgweather-common libmuffin0 libopencv-photo2.4 libpanel-applet-4-0 libtelepathy-glib0 libwebpdemux1 libwebpmux1
  libwnck-3-0 libwnck-3-common muffin-common nemo-data pkg-config python-gconf python-imaging python-lxml python-opencv
  python-pam python-pil python-pyatspi
0 upgraded, 57 newly installed, 0 to remove and 3 not upgraded.
Need to get 33.2 MB of archives.
After this operation, 96.8 MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
Let's see...

Code: Select all

$ aptitude show cinnamon | grep -A 1 Recommends
Recommends: gnome-themes-standard, gnome-terminal, nemo, cinnamon-screensaver,
            gnome-session-bin, gir1.2-cjsdbus-1.0, cinnamon-bluetooth
Wait, what? Cinnamon recommends gnome-session-bin? :D

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killer de bug
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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by killer de bug » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:19 am

In LMDE by default install recommend is set to true :?
That's why a lot of Gnome stuff was installed with UP8. Thanks for the explanation Monsta. :wink:
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.

Monsta
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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by Monsta » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:56 am

Oops... I could've figured that out earlier. I missed this message from Clem:
For now the best way is to install mint-meta-debian-cinnamon with the --no-install-recommends option.

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Re: Mint Cinnamon compared to LMDE Cinnamon

Post by cmost » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:24 pm

@ kurotsugi

Just because your experience with LMDE hasn't been up to your expectations doesn't mean that it hasn't been fabulous for others. Every computer is different.
Dual Intel Xeon 3.6 GHz, 24 Cores
86.5 GB DDR3 RAM
nVidia GeForce GTX 660
Linux Mint 18.2 MATE 1.18 +Compiz
Kernel 4.09 LTS

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