LMDE to become main Mint edition?

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intelamd
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LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by intelamd » Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:44 pm

It seems that Linux Mint Debain Edition is going to become the main edition of Linux Mint in some time along with Linux Mint Ubuntu Edition. It seems that there would be two main editions of Linux Mint in the near future 1- Linux Mint (Debian) and 2- Linux Mint (Ubuntu). Linux Mint won't leave their Ubuntu based versions and would continue to develop them but they would be based on Ubuntu LTS versions. And for their Debian based versions it seems they would be based on Debian Stable versions. That would be a good thing for Linux Mint. Linux Mint would not have to depend to just one base as Ubuntu and Linux Mint would offer their users very stable editions. This would contribute more to the popularity of Linux Mint. I hope all this would become reality by the end of this year. What you think about all this? :D

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Re: LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by Distro-Don » Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:52 pm

intelamd wrote:It seems that Linux Mint Debain Edition is going to become the main edition of Linux Mint in some time along with Linux Mint Ubuntu Edition. It seems that there would be two main editions of Linux Mint in the near future 1- Linux Mint (Debian) and 2- Linux Mint (Ubuntu). Linux Mint won't leave their Ubuntu based versions and would continue to develop them but they would be based on Ubuntu LTS versions. And for their Debian based versions it seems they would be based on Debian Stable versions. That would be a good thing for Linux Mint. Linux Mint would not have to depend to just one base as Ubuntu and Linux Mint would offer their users very stable editions. This would contribute more to the popularity of Linux Mint. I hope all this would become reality by the end of this year. What you think about all this? :D
I agree and hope that this is what happens. I started out using Cinnamon but now I am using LM13 MATE, LM16 MATE, LM17 MATE and LMDE MATE and I prefer LMDE MATE by far.

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Re: LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by turtlebay777 » Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:38 pm

OK Mate!

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Re: LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by DrHu » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:22 pm

I think they (developers of Mint) should keep the Debian option available, but they might feel that with Ubuntu's resources following some of Ubuntu's delivery scheduling helps with their own distribution.
--Mint has already made some moves around Ubuntu, via their MATE, Cinnamon desktops
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MATE_(des ... vironment)
  • MATE (Spanish pronunciation: [ˈmate]) is a desktop environment forked from the now-unmaintained code base of GNOME 2. It is named after the South American plant Yerba mate and tea made from the herb, mate.[1] The use of a new name ("MATE" instead of "GNOME") avoids conflicts with GNOME 3 components.
  • I don't think they (Mint) like Ubuntu's UNITY desktop too much, and it would likely have tied them too closely to Ubuntu control/decisions..
As to whether or not anyone delivering a Linux distribution is that anxious about Linux OS's popularity, I don't know for sure but I wouldn't think so.

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Re: LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by GeneBenson » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:59 pm

intelamd wrote: And for their Debian based versions it seems they would be based on Debian Stable versions.
I heard about the move to LTS only for the Main edition but not that LMDE would be based on stable. Could you provide a link please. Thanks. :D

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Re: LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by spchamp » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:36 am

I'd like to take a structural view to the topic. Granted, I'm new to LMDE, but I'm familiar with the Debian packaging system. If my understanding of the LMDE Update Packs architecture is accurate, it seems to me that LMDE -- in a package repository view -- that LMDE essentially extends on the Linux Mint Baseline Repository with exactly one of a "Rolling" repository -- either the "Latest" or "Incoming" Update Pack repositories, or Debian Testing itself. To that matter, I'm referencing an article from the Linux Mint blogs, 2011, Introducing Update Packs in Linux Mint Debian

I assume that the Baseline repository shared of Linux Mint (as a fork of Ubuntu, I think?) and LMDE -- namely the repository under http://packages.linuxmint.com/ -- that that "shared" repository might represent the subset of Linux Mint packages forked from Ubuntu? So, if that's accurate, then it seems to me that LMDE essentially adds a sort of Debian 'Testing' layer onto an Ubuntu fork?

I don't know, as yet, how the development workflow proceeds for developing the Linux Mint Ubuntu fork. I presume, if the Ubuntu upstream packages are not too far distinct from the original Debian packages, then if there was a goal of making a closer alignment with Debian Testing, perhaps that could be accomplished simply by "Changing the upstream," drawing the baseline packages then from Debian Testing, instead of from Ubuntu? Of course, I'm aware that that might be "Easier said than done."

For instance, there may be some subtle but significant differences, in some items, between Ubuntu and Debian, at least in "User space," and in some editions. Specifically there's the matter of the OS using one of SysV Init, SystemD, or Upstart as the default server job control interface in the OS. There's been some debate about that, among Debian Developers. Reportedly, from Mark Shuttleworth himself, the decision was lastly for SystemD. I'm not presently sure of how far that may be reflected in either of the Ubuntu releases or Debian 'Jessie', as yet. It might seem like a subtle thing, but it ultimately has a significant affect so far as command line interfaces for service management, and basic matters of service configuration and job control, and in regards to server job control, also the packaging of definitions for such services as would have conventionally provided an /etc/init.d/ script. I look forward to seeing which of those is being used in LMDE, at this time -- whether SystemD, conventional SysV init, or Upstart. I think, Ubuntu itself had used Upstart, previously, while Debian had default to using SysV init.

Once that matter would clear up, across the evolution of the respective distributions and their software packages, I'm sure it might not be the only difference between Debian and Ubuntu, however. I would not be surprised if there might be more "Gotchas" than that, "lurking' between the two distros. If the Linux Mint baseline would ever be shifted from Ubuntu, then directly to Debian, I'd like to think that it might be appropriate if we could try to understand what all/some/enough of those "Gotchas" would be, and to resolve that accordingly, before such a transition?

Of course, there might be more than the technical effects of such a "Change of upstream" in the Linux Mint "Mains" -- that it might have a certain sentimental effect, also, with some inevitable "Ripples." However, that kind of thing is probably difficult to predict, exactly. So if one may endeavor to keep a technical view about the topic: Personally, I think it's very interesting that LMDE may provide a sort of Debian Testing layer as namely onto a fork of Ubuntu (?) sort of making a "Best of both worlds" thing -- with that resolving, I think, the question of "Debian or Ubuntu?" -- moreover, that Mint might provide perhaps a more measured release cycle than Ubuntu.

Certainly, I think it might make some systematic sense, efficiency wise, to draw all of the OS from a single upstream baseline, however. If as at present, it works out well enough, for Mint to draw from both Ubuntu and Debian upstreams -- and in that, drawing in any patches added by developers in the Ubuntu Universe, essentially -- then I personally would not recommend that the "Ubuntu link" would be "Dropped" in any too hasty regards.

Of course, that may be not so much of a package maintainer's point of view, as much a a "New user's point of view". In regards to package maintenance, I think I would simply wish to focus on Debian, then, if I would endeavor to maintain a Debian package such as I might hope would at some time be included in Mint, at least in the LMDE edition. For example, I'm somewhat familiar with a Common Lisp implementation that is developed with all of Intel 32 and 64 bit editions, an Android edition, and and ARM edition moreover. If it could make it into Mint at least in the amd64 and ia32 editions, but of course that would be sometime down the road. If that package would also make it into Ubuntu, then, I wonder if it could ever introduce a conflict for its availability in LMDE? I would wonder whether the package in LMDE would be the package from Ubuntu or the package from Debian? I wonder whether that might -- in one view -- might boil down to a matter of which would provide a package with version code of the "newest version," in each of Ubuntu and Debian Testing upstream repositories? In that view, then, I'm concerned that the "Two baselines" model might make it a bit "hairy" as in regards to maintaining a software package if initially in Debian, and such as might then be included in distros derived from Debian. So in that light, then I might prefer if Mint could draw from exactly one baseline, if simply to simplify the possible dependency management issues in that.

So, as a new user, I think it's neat if Mint draws from both upstreams. However, in looking ahead to a possibility of taking up the responsibilities of maintaining a Debian package, and the matter of the hairy integration then, between the two upstreams, I think I could prefer if Mint could draw from exactly one upstream. However, I would hope that the Ubuntu folks would not as if that represented a "Cold shoulder" towards Ubuntu.

Conclusively -- or at least, "lastly," in my response -- I think I can simply look forward to installing LMDE. Though in a forward-looking sense, I think I might prefer a "Single upstream" model, for if it could simplify the dependency management concerns. Regardless, I think LMDE has a great, even unique package maintenance model -- in if LMDE would be effectively layering the testing repository on top of a stable baseline distro, and as whether the baseline distro would be drawn from Ubutnu or Debian. I would hope that that maint. model would be retained if across any "shifts in upstream."

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Re: LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by Crewp » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:29 am

Currently, I use LMDE w/ Cinnamon DE, and I love it. But as far as it becoming Linux Mint's Main Edition, I don;t see it, at least not now. It only takes a glance at the Linux Mint Community website, to see the sheer number of people using Mint's Main Edition. The move to Ubuntu's LTS as a base was very wise, also, the Mint's team dropping KDE, and XFCE support for LMDE was also wise seeing that the Mint team is small. and only has so much in the way of resources. I know I'll catch hell for saying this but, ( It's just my opinion ) I think Linux Mint should also drop It's KDE and XFCE for the Main Edition as well. Seeing, you can use Xunbuntu, or Kunbuntu, if you really want these DE's on an Ubuntu base. ( Minus Mint tools of course ) I mean, SolydXK does a good job with KDE and XFCE on a Debian testing base, so why not the same with Main. This would leave Linux Mint with Main Edition w/ Cinnamon and Mate, and LMDE w/ Cinnamon or Mate DE's. And even more time for the Mint team. But Clem seems to really take his time and think through what is best for Mint, and it's future, and I trust in the end he will make the right call.
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Re: LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by Pierre » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:03 am

the LMDE & the Mate / Cinnamon versions are both from main MintTeam support.

so, one would assume that the MintTeam would stay with those three, in the foreseeable future.
- they don't have the resources to do anything else.
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Re: LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by spchamp » Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:15 am

Crewp wrote:Currently, I use LMDE w/ Cinnamon DE, and I love it. But as far as it becoming Linux Mint's Main Edition, I don;t see it, at least not now.
Though I'm only one day into using LMDE, I think I would agree. Personally, I've encountered some issues with my PC's particular hardware configuration, such that seem to merit a dist-upgrade to Qiana, if not simply a full reinstallation from a new LiveDVD. The PC is an HP Pavilion. It uses an Intel graphics card, and has UEFI on the hard drive. I've enabled the legacy boot feature, for an ordinary boot-up to Mint -- as a bit of a workaround about the UEFI thing. As far as the graphics configuration, apparently there are Linux drivers for the graphics card, but apparently, those would need to be downloaded directly from Intel itself. Intel does provide Ubuntu-oriented packages -- in addition to RPMs -- and a full Ubuntu package repository. In their package dependencies, however, those packages are not version-compatible with LMDE 201403, not in either of the Mint LMDE repositories at least. I've had to add 'nomodeset' to the kernel command line, at every boot -- with the Live disk and the OS as installed on the internal hard drive -- in order to even so much as for the screen to not go blank as soon as the kernel is loaded. I cannot either switch from X to the console, without the whole screen going blank again. I'm sure that the issue would be resolved once the appropriate drivers would be installed.

Intel furthermore provides source code for the drivers. After a few questions I've found while trying to figure out the version-dependency issues, I'm more interested in upgrading the PC's Mint installation to the newest, Ubuntu-compatible Mint edition, however, to be able to install those drivers as already compiled. Candidly, when researching the matter of package version dependencies, I was surprised to see that LMDE 2014'03s ligblib2 is compatible with Ubuntu 13.04 -- compatible in the package's minor version at least -- though the latest Ubuntu is 14.04.

I'd installed LMDE in hoping that it might serve as a nice, stable "Middle ground" between Debian's almost glacial release cycle and Ubuntu's regular release sprints. However, due to this matter of driver dependency, I think I've had to reconsider my options, at that.

Personally, if any of my experiences in this endeavor, so far, might somehow serve to help with supporting other HP Paviliion users, candidly, I think that the most consumer-friendly approach for me will be to upgrade to the Ubuntu-compatible Mint Qiana.
Crewp wrote:The move to Ubuntu's LTS as a base was very wise, also
After the effective vendor driver dependency of those Intel graphics drivers onto specific Ubuntu editions, I definitely agree.

I would not have expected that vendor dependencies could be a concern. However, I think it's a great thing that Intel has been proactive enough to develop and distribute drivers for Linux.

Personally, I think it's nice that Mint is available -- perhaps, in a sense -- beyond so much of any hype around Ubuntu. Personally, I don't want to see Linux go a consumerist way. The integration of Amazon product search into Ubuntu Unity had kind of worried me, then -- not only for the controversy raised by Richard M Stallman himself, around that. In terms of user experience, I think that the Amazon.com product listings in the start menu are simply "Too much" I'm glad to see that that's not been carried over into Mint.

So far as what little I've read, at least, I admire Mark Shuttleworth's work in leading the development of a commercial, desktop-focused Linux distro, in Ubuntu -- moreover, a distro derived from Debian. Candidly, I've noticed that Mark Shuttleworth has made reference to mint, moreover, in his own web log, and I couldn't help but notice the space tourism part of Mark Shuttleworth's biography. On a wide arcing sidebar, albeit: There are two companies -- both of Deep Space Industries (DSI) and Planetary Resources -- that, in recent years, have proposed to mine asteroids and to manufacture structural materials, in orbit. Personally, I'm still curious as to see where that may go, in technological development, if not furthermore in open systems development -- there is a slow trickle of news about it, at least, from those companies' social networking streams. There's also Virgin Galactic and their SpaceShip Two.

If Linux may ever be formally adopted by any companies in the NewSpace industry, of course I wouldn't want to advertise that to Redmond, however, as Microsoft might feel "Left out" then, LoL. Insomuch as that it may be an industry driven of individual innovations, I think Mint is a good OS platform for that -- even insofar as troubleshooting a driver dependency issue, LoL.

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Re: LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by WinterTroubles » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:52 am

spchamp wrote: Intel does provide Ubuntu-oriented packages -- in addition to RPMs -- and a full Ubuntu package repository. In their package dependencies, however, those packages are not version-compatible with LMDE 201403, not in either of the Mint LMDE repositories at least.
Just a note... LMDE is not based on Ubuntu, but, rather on Debian (hence Linux Mint Debian Edition). Only main edition Mint is based on Ubuntu. This misunderstanding may well be at the heart of some of your issues regarding compatible drivers.
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Re: LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by spchamp » Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:40 am

WinterTroubles wrote:Just a note... LMDE is not based on Ubuntu, but, rather on Debian (hence Linux Mint Debian Edition). Only main edition Mint is based on Ubuntu. This misunderstanding may well be at the heart of some of your issues regarding compatible drivers.
I understand that LMDE draws packages from Debian Testing, and from a repository ar Linuxmint.com. I'd not been certain of whether the latter was drawn from Ubunutu, as in an sort of a corresponding "Rolling."

The difficulty I've encountered before installing the Intel graphics drivers, it's a matter of the exact package dependencies of the driver installer package. The installer itself is avalable as compiled for specific Ubuntu releases, none of which are altogther version-compatible with the corresponding packages as available in LMDE. Though I could try to compile those from source, but I'm not sure if even the build-deps would be available in an appropriate version in LMDE. Presently, I think it will be more arvantageous to simply reinstall from a live image for the latest, Ubunutu-based Mint.

I've had LMDE installed for a day's time, and haven't even added any files under ~/ as yet - was taking it slowly with sort of "Out of the box / first run" note sheet beside me, something to focus on besides these pratical "hangups" in the installation.

Once I'd have a completely Ubunutu-based Mint edition installed, hopefully the Intel graphics driver install would be as simple as installing the driver installer pakcage as compiled and published by Intel. Then, maybe it would make for a simple usage report, for Mint on that model of HP Pavilion PC.

The PC uses UEFI. In the reinstall, I could try to address that without the legacy boot / manual device selection workaround that the first installation was made with.

It's definitely not a straightaway simple installation, though it is a relatively budget-friendly PC

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Re: LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by titianmom » Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:28 pm

I certainly hope not; not until they fix the glitches with Cinnamon. I'm guessing Debian isn't the problem, just Cinnabomb. I'm on a newer T530 with an i7 processor, 8 gigs of Ram and a standard HD video card and it freezes when I go near the panel to do anything. Have to hardboot the thing to get anywhere. :evil:

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Re: LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by spchamp » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:11 am

titianmom wrote:I'm on a newer T530 with an i7 processor, 8 gigs of Ram and a standard HD video card and it freezes when I go near the panel to do anything.
It sounds like that could be a matter of the kernel config and/or the X config, that kind of software lockup? In a hope if it might help: Looking at a page about the T530, at the Arch Linux Wiki, there's some generic configuration advice there for the T530. In particular, I notice the notes about ACPI (kernel module thinkpad_acpi) and the configuration advice for the TrackPoint point with X, maybe either of those could help to clear up the lockup issue?

Granted, not every item there would be exactly applicable onto Mint -- like around package names and config file pathname differences. For instance, I'm not finding a xf86-video-intel package at http://packages.linuxmint.com but there is and xserver-xorg-video-intel package in Debian 'testing' presumably also in LMDE. If that's installed, then I wonder if the Arch Linux Wiki page's advice might be of any further help?

Personally, I'm booted to Windows 8 right now, but I wonder if that last package might even serve to fix up the graphics issues on my own laptop, without installing the seperate Intel graphics drivers installer. The HP Pavilion model I'm using, it uses Intel graphics too. Will give it a go....

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Re: LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by MikeF90000 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:41 pm

IMO LMDE isn't close to being stable enough yet to be the 'main' edition. However, it is very important for the Mint devs to have an alternate path given the Ubuntu Elephant In The Room, namely the possible deployment of mir at the next LTS 16-04.

I don't track wayland and xwayland development that closely, but the latters immaturity is worrisome. The non-main Ubuntu spins will have to make a choice about which way to go, I believe that Kubuntu has said 'probably No' to mir. Keeping the Mint base on 14-04 will let the devs spend more time to get familiar with wayland issues especially on a Debian base.

More turbulence is coming on the application front. The 'audacious' (music player) devs have backed out of porting to GTK3 while keeping their source tree ready for QT eventually. Apparently the GNOME devs keep making changes that are not friendly to 'non GNOME' apps that have to work on other DEs. The 'bigger' apps (like Firefox, GIMP, LibreOffice) have serious choices to make that may have non-GNOME compatibility implications.

I'm a big XFCE fan but I'm also hopeful about the progress of LXqt.
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Re: LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by spchamp » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:11 am

MikeF90000 wrote:the possible deployment of mir at the next LTS 16-04.
That's new on me - I'd just started reading about Wayland, recently, been looking at starting into GUI development in Common Lisp, focusing on X.org. Found an overview page at Wikipedia, about the Mir window system, the page doesn't mention an API, of course. "C++" Open spec, not much about API there. I wonder how it'll compare to X.org?
MikeF90000 wrote:More turbulence is coming on the application front. The 'audacious' (music player) devs have backed out of porting to GTK3 while keeping their source tree ready for QT eventually. Apparently the GNOME devs keep making changes that are not friendly to 'non GNOME' apps that have to work on other DEs.
Interesting. I think Qt is pretty slick, well supported by Digita moreover. Linux and Microsoft Windows, iOS, and Android ports, too
MikeF90000 wrote:The 'bigger' apps (like Firefox, GIMP, LibreOffice) have serious choices to make that may have non-GNOME compatibility implications.
I've read that OpenOffice and Firefox both use Cairo UI -- Firefox, at that, using Cairo even in FIrefoxOS, architecturally Linux + Boot2Gecko, Firefox, ... on mobile device platforms, moreover. I'd guess GIMP uses Cairo also, in its GTK components?

Personally, I'm happy with Cinnamon, so far as I can keep my OS' on-disk installation booted and displayed on the flat panel. Focusing on using LMDE, though, I've installed it in Virtualbox now, running LMDE via a "Seamless" mode VIrtualbox guest installation on a Windows 8 host OS, so the desktop environment doesn't show up enough, at that. It's a configuration compatible with both the software platform of the DeVry University Online (DVUO) courses I'm enrolled in, primarily -- those, using a lot of Microsoft Windows-based software, e.g. NI LabVIEW -- and my own courses of study, I suppose. At any rate, I know of a Common Lisp desktop manager platform that I think won't interfere with the Windows 8 desktop, when running under Virtualbox, with a seamless desktop overlay. It might be kind of a bare-bones configuration, but I think it should be sufficient for the Linux virtual guest installation.

Candidly, I think that Mint could make for an ideal component of a Common Lisp software development environment, moreover -- thinking, Mint in Virtualbox on MS Windows, for anyone who's effectively locked into the Microsoft Windows platform somehow. Of course, I notice that Mint and Virtualbox are DFSG-compatible whereas Microsoft Windows is clearly not, though to me, it's an effective dependency of DVUO computing courses.

With Linux as the Guest OS and Microsoft Windows in "the main processor" then it's not too difficult to keep up with the DVUO course work, in its inevitable Microsoft Windows platform dependence -- I don't have to reboot for the weekly comp. lab assignments, at that.
MikeF90000 wrote:I'm a big XFCE fan but I'm also hopeful about the progress of LXqt.
Certainly, I've heard of XFCE -- might like to take a look at it, beside the Common Lisp desktop environment thing. With a Linux desktop running in a virtual guest session, I think the ideal desktop environment would be largely bare-bones -- maybe something with an applet for accessing a run menu, or somesuch, but it doesn't need much of a layer on top of the baseline x.org session, in that configuration. The host OS provides the primary desktop, at that.

Personally, I'm alright with some features of eye candy desktop environments, though not so much the Jolly Rancher desktop themes LOL. I think Cinnamon has a sleek style, at that -- nice middle ground between style and usability.

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Re: LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by killer de bug » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:53 am

spchamp wrote: So, if that's accurate, then it seems to me that LMDE essentially adds a sort of Debian 'Testing' layer onto an Ubuntu fork?
tl;dr

LMDE: based on Debian. No Ubuntu here...
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Re: LMDE to become main Mint edition?

Post by teatime » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:55 am

I think with this step Mint devs to not have to burden to maintain everything alone which is clever so that they are able to concentrate their main power at Cinnamon due to other desktops are already in Debian's repo and will need only a little of polishing. With Debian Jessie they get already a lot of testing of systemd and I do not think X11 will vanish over night nor I think MIR will be that successful to be the only solution as most other distributions are waiting for wayland. For me it's more interesting whether Canonical have the breath to stem all their innovations on their own in case Debian or better Ubuntu changes much furhter from it's base. The only thing which remains is Debian needs somehow a financial supporter which keep the Debian Long Term Support initiative rolling (http://www.freexian.com/services/debian-lts.html). I'm thinking about to pay for a yearly subscripton as the mentioned prices are moderate (maybe this is OT).

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