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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:53 pm
by Zill
Thanks for posting that useful info francheu.

It is very good news to hear that LMDE is not dead and I fully agree with Clem's comment that "Our main concern is that it works well though" and does not need to "have the latest of everything." However, the problem of huge filesizes for future update packs still does not seem to have been considered. If each UP is almost as large as (or even larger than!) a complete distro then the advantages of the UP system seem diminished. Many users would simply find it more convenient to install the complete system from scratch, rather that upgrade an existing system.

Are any LMDE devs out there willing to comment on this?

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:36 pm
by Monsta
Zill wrote:However, the problem of huge filesizes for future update packs still does not seem to have been considered. If each UP is almost as large as (or even larger than!) a complete distro then the advantages of the UP system seem diminished.
The advantages are not going anywhere. One of them is relative stability (compared to a plain rolling release). One thing that helps to achieve it, in my opinion, is taking snapshots of Testing not periodically, but when it's appropriate (i.e. less breakages).
What exactly is the problem with these filesizes, BTW?
Zill wrote:Many users would simply find it more convenient to install the complete system from scratch, rather that upgrade an existing system.
Maybe, but ISOs are released even [url=http://www.linuxmint.com/release.php?id=14]less frequently[/url] than UPs. Imagine UP7 is out and you want to install the system from scratch. You take the latest ISO (201303) install it, and... right, there's the same huge load of updates waiting for you :)

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:38 pm
by excollier
When you have a download speed of around 100 kB/s, then large files are a problem, believe me. :(

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:23 pm
by Zill
Monsta wrote:...What exactly is the problem with these filesizes, BTW?...
For users having either bandwidth caps, slow or unreliable connections then large downloads can be a problem. More frequent but smaller downloads are generally a better solution IMHO.
Monsta wrote:
Zill wrote:Many users would simply find it more convenient to install the complete system from scratch, rather that upgrade an existing system.
Maybe, but ISOs are released even [url=http://www.linuxmint.com/release.php?id=14]less frequently[/url] than UPs. Imagine UP7 is out and you want to install the system from scratch. You take the latest ISO (201303) install it, and... right, there's the same huge load of updates waiting for you :)
My point was that if it is more than six months or so since the last UP was issued then it might as well be released as a new ISO. Being compressed, a new ISO will probably be a smaller download than a pure UP and less likely to cause problems for users upgrading.

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:51 am
by misGnomer
Merci bien, François.

It's good to finally have some confirmation that the Linux Mint Debian Edition hasn't been totally abandoned by the wayside permanently.

Yet valid questions remain.

Is there any roadmap? The users wouldn't mind knowing. Esp. wrt. security updates and fixes to existing major security breaches.

Is there anyone keeping an eye on the LMDE train, or is it only on a part-time/when-time-permits basis?

It seems that a good section of the more knowledgeable LMDE users have (respectfully) moved on to form a more communicative and responsive community of their own. In the early days the LMDE power users used to have some communication with the "management", so it looks like even this only method of communication and peer support we had has diminished during this extended information vacuum.

Update Packs cease to be update packs when they become annual gigabyte-class lumps with little in terms of security or application updates in between. What began as an enticing Cinnamon-flavoured edition of rolling Debian Testing and next evolved to bring those rolling updates in the form of frequent Update Pack releases seems now destined to... well I just don't know.

Here's a thought: Perhaps one of the many journalists or bloggers who've covered LMDE news in the past should try to catch Clem's (if he's the one in charge of LMDE?) attention for five minutes to ask the few short and simple questions about Mint's plans for LMDE's future. A wide coverage across Linux news media would be practically guaranteed though, so remember to prepare your Raspberry Pi servers for the Slashdot effect! :lol:

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:48 am
by Monsta
Zill wrote:My point was that if it is more than six months or so since the last UP was issued then it might as well be released as a new ISO.
But who will release it while the Mint team is busy doing other things? :)
Zill wrote:Being compressed, a new ISO will probably be a smaller download than a pure UP and less likely to cause problems for users upgrading.
Aren't they about the same size? Gigabyte here, gigabyte there.

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:13 am
by killer de bug
clem
Hi Alessio,
Of course it’s still alive. Our main concern is that it works well though. It’s also set to receive backports but it doesn’t necessarily need to be bleeding edge and have the latest of everything.
Nice ! Now we all know that LMDE is following Debian Old stable and that there will be no new update for a long time. "It's working so we don't care about it, and we will continue to develop new features for Cinnamon without correcting all the bugs..."

Nice way of life Clem. Thanks... :roll:

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:30 am
by Zill
Monsta wrote:...
Zill wrote:Being compressed, a new ISO will probably be a smaller download than a pure UP and less likely to cause problems for users upgrading.
Aren't they about the same size? Gigabyte here, gigabyte there.
Exactly! Which is why I am not advocating just releasing new ISOs every year or so. Smaller UPs of a couple of hundred MBs every month or two would be a far preferable solution and would ensure that any major security bugs were rapidly quashed. This is what I originally expected from LMDE but this does not now seem to be the case. :(

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:01 am
by Monsta
Zill wrote:Smaller UPs of a couple of hundred MBs every month or two would be a far preferable solution and would ensure that any major security bugs were rapidly quashed.
No, they would not. This is Debian Testing, you're at the mercy of Debian Testing Security Team and several factors -
Limitations

For several reasons, the security support for testing cannot be expected to be of the same quality as for Debian's stable branch:
  • Updates for testing-security usually receive less testing than updates for stable-security.
  • Testing is changing all the time which increases the likelihood of problems with the build infrastructure. Such problems can delay security updates in testing
How many times should [url=http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=200&t=135428&start=60#p755086]this[/url] be said? :)
Zill wrote:This is what I originally expected from LMDE but this does not now seem to be the case. :(
I'm not really sure who's to blame about that :)

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:46 am
by Zill
Monsta wrote:...No, they would not. This is Debian Testing, you're at the mercy of Debian Testing Security Team and several factors -
Limitations

For several reasons, the security support for testing cannot be expected to be of the same quality as for Debian's stable branch:
  • Updates for testing-security usually receive less testing than updates for stable-security.
  • Testing is changing all the time which increases the likelihood of problems with the build infrastructure. Such problems can delay security updates in testing
...
I do appreciate that Debian Testing is a moving target. However, I did envisage that (selected) upgraded packages from Testing would be checked by the LMDE team on a regular basis to minimise the risk of breakage to a LMDE system and it is these that I would have expected to be incorporated into a new Update Pack. Obviously, these packages would often have dependent packages which would also need to be updated and so the overall size of each UP could be quite variable.

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:22 am
by kurotsugi
...No, they would not. This is Debian Testing, you're at the mercy of Debian Testing Security Team and several factors -
...and the lmde incoming repo user. I wonder how many incoming user at this time.

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:47 pm
by roger64
kurotsugi wrote: ...and the lmde incoming repo user. I wonder how many incoming user at this time.
Count me one, but, I do feel alone... :D

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:46 pm
by kurotsugi
your not alone...i have incoming activated on my repo too :D

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:28 pm
by Transitman
killer de bug wrote:
clem
Hi Alessio,
Of course it’s still alive. Our main concern is that it works well though. It’s also set to receive backports but it doesn’t necessarily need to be bleeding edge and have the latest of everything.
Nice ! Now we all know that LMDE is following Debian Old stable and that there will be no new update for a long time. "It's working so we don't care about it, and we will continue to develop new features for Cinnamon without correcting all the bugs..."

Nice way of life Clem. Thanks... :roll:

Where do you get that LMDE is following DEBIAN OLD STABLE (Squeeze)?

The current stable Debian is Debian 7 also named Wheezy.
Then there is testing, code named Jessie
Then the is unstable also known as Sid.
Then there is experimental.

Clem is trying to provide the LMDE community with an in house tested and proven LMDE based on Jessie/testing before sending out the update packs.
If this is something that really bothers you, the alter your sources.list to start following the Debian repos, while also still following Linux Mint.
Below is a sample of a source.list anyone could use. (Warning - use of this list is at your own risk)

Code: Select all

#### Linux Mint Repos
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://packages.linuxmint.com/ debian romeo backport import upstream main 

#### Debian Wheezy Repos
# deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main contrib non-free  
# deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main contrib non-free 

#### Debian Testing Repos
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing non-free contrib main  
deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing main contrib non-free 

#### Debian Testing-Updates Repos
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing-proposed-updates main contrib non-free  
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib non-free  
deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing-proposed-updates main contrib non-free 
deb-src http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib non-free 

#### Multimedia Repos
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://www.deb-multimedia.org/ testing main non-free 
# deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://www.deb-multimedia.org/ sid non-free main 
# deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://www.deb-multimedia.org/ experimental main 
You will still get updates to your Linux Mint system, but also be up to date on Debian releases.
Again - some conflicts may occur between Debian Repos and that of LMDE Update Packs. Use of the above is at your own risk.

Also see this - http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=201&t=123323

It may help you better understand what Clem is doing and help those who want to change to a more "Rolling" release.

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:21 am
by misGnomer
Thanks Transitman.

That might actually be the recommended method for advanced users who don't mind dealing with potential major breakage.

I do recall that LMDE's introductory documentation infers to a more involved user experience than with the mintbuntus, but I reckon many LMDE users fall somewhere between the Gentoo-like build-all-from-source and complete newcomer categories.

I mean, what's not to like about the much-respected Debian, but tweaked with further user-friendly features and updates coming safely and frequently in the form of Update Packs.

The advanced LMDE users with interest in experimenting and less worries about breakage are increasingly finding their fix in various old and new Debian derivatives and they're probably already tracking testing or unstable by now. Some are doing it here with LMDE as well.

It's the rest of the LMDE crowd who are starting to feel a little uneasy about the lack of updates and communication regarding LMDE's future or present. Apart from Clem having noted in some unrelated blog entry that "it's alive."

Clem's doing a great job keeping the mintbuntus up and running, but, unlike the early LMDE which burst into the scene as a friendly face of Debian and started gaining good momentum (not unlike early Ubuntu until they forgot their roots), this current evolution of LMDE feels like it's been left adrift.

Since it's "alive" we can probably assume that Update Pack 7 will eventually turn up. And then we can also probably assume that LMDE could be left unattended for another 9-12 months until the next burst of catchup activity behind the scenes.

If that is indeed the planned mode of operation for LMDE, it'd just be nice that the userbase is made aware of it.

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:11 am
by Bonsaii
Hi,

UP7 whenever it is ready!

For months I have not posted anything. Why? Because LMDE UP6 is running perfectly. And isn't that what most people want?

Thanks to hardware related issues I had problems at the beginning in 2010. Thanks for the patience of all helpers here!
I did my fair share of breaking things in 2011 and 2012 and went through "testing" with the occasional hick-up (or more).
Then I switched to LMDE with update packs.

For over a year now, my machine is running with LMDE as brilliantly and smoothly as possible. UP6 went through without a glitch. Do I miss anything, because UP7 takes time? No. If I wanted to work on my PC - instead of with my PC - there would be testing or other more experimental installations.

The PC and its software is meant to help me do my work. It is not meant to create work or - worse - problems. And LMDE with UPs is the absolutely perfect tool. Instead of a trouble maker.

Thanks to all developers, testers, helpers, and take your time!

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:10 am
by killer de bug
Transitman wrote: Clem is trying [...] those who want to change to a more "Rolling" release.
This has already been discuss... If you do this, you kill Cinnamon. So the better choice is to go to SolydX, witch is stable, using XFCE and based on Testing.

Bonsaii wrote:Hi,
UP7 whenever it is ready!

For months I have not posted anything. Why? Because LMDE UP6 is running perfectly. And isn't that what most people want?
No! Most of the people are using LMDE since it was promising a debian based system, using testing repo (then UP). It was a promise of stability and novelties. After that the UPs were released every 6 months after the main edition. Ok but the interest was already not really here.

Finally we learned that the next UP will be released somewhere in the future but it could be in one month or in 2 years. That's without saying that the last one was 9 or 10 months ago...

If you change the rules of a game, don't expect the players to be fine with that. And if addtionnaly you don't communicate about that...
If user want to use Debian stable, then they should install Debian Stable and not LMDE.
LMDE was supposed to be testing. Now, it's more out of date than Debian Stable... What's wrong ?

When every user in need of a testing based system would have changed to a straight testing system or SolydX or an other distro, who will test the UP ???? At that moment don't blame Clem if bugs are not corrected before UP7, 8, 9... are released ;)

I'm leaving LMDE and will not post to comment the lack of UP.
I wish Clem and the team success with Linux Mint & Cinnamon but from what I can see it will not happen until the team correct all the bugs... Releasing new version with addon every 6 months is fair, but if you have to wait 1 year before a bug correction....
I had a nice system for the past years, thanks to Linux Mint, but since 6 months it's not the case. It's getting more and more buggy (Cinnamon :shock: )... Time to leave.

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:21 pm
by Transitman
killer de bug wrote:
If user want to use Debian stable, then they should install Debian Stable and not LMDE.
LMDE was supposed to be testing. Now, it's more out of date than Debian Stable... What's wrong ?

... Time to leave.
Well, since you really did not read what was posted, LMDE users have options
Option #1 - Use LMDE with Update Packs that come out every 6 months or so.
Option #2 - Use LMDE with Stable Debian 7 (Wheezy).
Option #3 - Use LMDE with the TESTING repo from Debian (Jessie).
Option #4 - Use LMDE with the SID repo. (Not recommended for new users)
Option #5 - Use LMDE with the EXPERIMENTAL repo (Not recommended for new users or those who do not feel comfortable in an unstable system).
Option #6 - Leave LMDE and go use something else. No one here is stopping you.

For those who have followed this far, I have posted links to where you can change from LMDE UPDATE PACKS (if you're not happy) to either TESTING or SID, or even STABLE (being based on Debian 7).
Feel free to ask your questions, post your comments, but don't give out bad information just because you don't like the way development of the UPDATE PACKS is going. If you think you can do better, then offer your assistance to help get the UPDATE PACKS out a bit faster.
As far as this user is concerned, Clem and his small band of developers (all volunteers I believe) are doing the best they can with what they have. And in this world economy, a paying job comes first, everything else is second.

I now return you to your forum reading and posting.

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:15 am
by roger64
Hi

@Transitman
Thank you for your stern and didactic post, listing the many options we have, including the last one : say thanks and go away... :D

I dislike fiddling with my excellently well working LMDE system, so since you list some unofficial options, let me add this one: I installed and tried SolydX (Xfce for those who ignore it) on a brand new partition and it works extremely well. I could use the "latest" NVIDIA driver (something .88) and a recent kernel (3.9.1 I think). What SolydX brought me? Few things indeed, I could use some new software that was not running with my LMDE current glib version (Sayonara, Blue Griffon) and that's about it to be honest. Playonlinux and the near-latest Firefox too...

This morning, I updated LMDE, not with Cinnamon but with Mate (1.4 though).

For the last months, most of LMDE users - and former users - have asked themselves a basic question: "What happens with LMDE?" I do not protest against the lack of updates (they will come in due time, I hope) but I certainly would appreciate some honest bit of information about the intended LMDE schedule. As I could see with Solydx that the kernel 3.9.1 is working pretty well, I imagine that Cinnamon is maybe facing some -gnome-related?- tough problems. Some months ago, some presumably knowledgeable people (Cinnarch, Manjaro) stopped using Cinnamon, now the loooooooooooong silence of Clem, can only add fuel to their judgment. There seems to be something rotten in the kingdom of Denmark... When you refuse to say anything about your bill of health, you can't prevent concerned friends to fear about some cancer news... I really know nothing. I am just wondering...

Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:32 am
by eidnch
Hi, i am new here ...

I use Linux Mint from Version 4 on and i like LM and i want to say a big thank-you for your work.

I follow this post already some time i want to place my suggestions. For now i have installed LM KDE LTS and LMDE on separate partitions to test both systems for stability. I don't want to install my system every new year. So for me is a semi-rolling release model next to a LTS model the best option. Last year there was still debian CUT with a snapshot for every month, now there is SolydXK with a update pack every month and LMDE with UPs every half a year. For me also half a year is to long. The best would be for me in the middle, a UP every 3 month. For example, I like Google-Chrome, because the sandboxing feature, but its not working any more with the kernel in LMDE. Ubuntu has backported this feature to kernel 3.2 but not Debian, so you need a newer kernel. Debian testing is no semi-rolling release model any more, its a rolling release model , so that is no option. You lose the stability. With LMDE UPs for now you lose security over stability.

The strong part of LM is, that they are hearing the suggestions, so why not ask, discuss and vote for the best UP range and when there is the need for more developers why not ask for more? for a LMDE developers leader?