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Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:45 pm
by xfrank
killer de bug wrote:If this is finally possible:
For years new versions of software got into Linux Mint first and were then ported to LMDE. We’re thinking of changing that. New software would get into LMDE first and then into Linux Mint.
Then LMDE2 will rock! :)
Very good! :)

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:49 pm
by Crewp
I agree Killer de Bug, I think this will make LMDE much more attractive.

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:05 pm
by killer de bug
There would be some fun again in our LMDE life. :lol:

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:07 pm
by Zill
killer de bug wrote:If this is finally possible:
For years new versions of software got into Linux Mint first and were then ported to LMDE. We’re thinking of changing that. New software would get into LMDE first and then into Linux Mint.
Then LMDE2 will rock! :)
It may be me but I can't quite see how this will be consistent with LMDE2 running on Debian Stable! Does this mean that newer packages from Debian Testing (or Unstable!) will be incorporated into the new LMDE2 alongside the Debian Stable base? If so, how will this not degrade the "legendary" reliability of Debian Stable systems?

Is this to be achieved through (optional) backports or some other mechanism?

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:25 pm
by killer de bug
Zill wrote: It may be me but I can't quite see how this will be consistent with LMDE2 running on Debian Stable! Does this mean that newer packages from Debian Testing (or Unstable!) will be incorporated into the new LMDE2 alongside the Debian Stable base?
The base will not change. So no package coming from Debian Testing or Unstable.
Here we are speaking about new version of Cinnamon, Nemo and the Mint tools...

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:41 pm
by Zill
killer de bug wrote:The base will not change. So no package coming from Debian Testing or Unstable.
Here we are speaking about new version of Cinnamon, Nemo and the Mint tools...
But both Cinnamon and Nemo are in the Debian repos. :?

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:25 pm
by killer de bug
You are aware that they are developed by the Linux Mint team?

Next version of Cinnamon will be developed for Jessie. Not for Debian Testing. Let's see if it will still be in Testing and Sid repo....

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:51 pm
by Zill
killer de bug wrote:... Next version of Cinnamon will be developed for Jessie. Not for Debian Testing. Let's see if it will still be in Testing and Sid repo....
I will be interested to see how these packages will be pinned if they are also to be released for the wider Debian community (including forked distros) to use.

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:54 pm
by killer de bug
This is not a Linux Mint problem. Clem and the team don't care about this.

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:00 pm
by cb474
Zill wrote:It may be me but I can't quite see how this will be consistent with LMDE2 running on Debian Stable! Does this mean that newer packages from Debian Testing (or Unstable!) will be incorporated into the new LMDE2 alongside the Debian Stable base? If so, how will this not degrade the "legendary" reliability of Debian Stable systems?

Is this to be achieved through (optional) backports or some other mechanism?
If you read what follows the passage from Clem's post that killer de bug quotes, Clem does continue by saying that LMDE2 will be a little less stable than LTS based Linux Minut:
For years new versions of software got into Linux Mint first and were then ported to LMDE. We’re thinking of changing that. New software would get into LMDE first and then into Linux Mint. Getting into LMDE would mean updating Betsy, whereas getting into Linux Mint would mean being part of the next 17.x release to come.

In other words, whereas Mint 17.x would see distinct releases (Qiana, Rebecca..etc..) with opt-in upgrade paths, LMDE 2 would be continuously upgraded (it would just be Betsy basically) and simply receive updated ISO images now and then.

In line with what LMDE is to Linux Mint, this would make LMDE a tiny bit more risky than Linux Mint and a tiny bit more exciting for experienced users.
I guess the unstability will come from getting the Mint sepcific package updates sooner (as others have said)? And they have said they will backport common packages like Firefox, etc.

I'm fine with this. Given that LMDE was originally based on Debian testing, it seems like they've come up with a good way to continue to balance stability against having continuous upgrades, with a small risk to LMDE users. I never thought the spirit of LMDE was about rock solid stability (at the loss of more up to date packages).

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:45 am
by Monsta
Zill wrote:But both Cinnamon and Nemo are in the Debian repos. :?
These packages are frozen at 2.2, they won't receive updates to 2.4 or newer (maybe only in jessie-backports repo).

Just like in the main Mint edition, we'll have the stable upstream base (which will only receive bugfixes and security updates) and Mint's own repos that will receive Cinnamon/Nemo/etc. updates when the new versions are released.

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:19 pm
by woodsman
These packages are frozen at 2.2, they won't receive updates to 2.4 or newer (maybe only in jessie-backports repo).
Cinnamon is a flagship product of the Mint project. While LMDE will be based on Debian stable, Clem's announcement in segfault hints at an active backports repository in LMDE. I hope one way or another Cinnamon remains current in LMDE. :)

Likewise with MATE too. :)

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:25 am
by cb474
woodsman wrote:Cinnamon is a flagship product of the Mint project. While LMDE will be based on Debian stable, Clem's announcement in segfault hints at an active backports repository in LMDE. I hope one way or another Cinnamon remains current in LMDE. :)

Likewise with MATE too. :)
Clem says in the segfault post, and as has already be cited in this thread, that what they are considering is that "New software would get into LMDE first." It seems clear, since the stable base won't get new versions of packages, that "new software" means Mint specific software, like Cinnamon and Mate, might go to LMDE first, before even regular Linux Mint. So those desktops may be kept more up to date in LMDE Betsy, they even in regular Mint. There's also a comment on that post, where Clem further clarifies the plan:
It means that Betsy would receive package updates via APT (apt-get, update manager etc..) for features planned/introduced in the latest 17.x releases.

For instance, Mint 17 has Cinnamon 2.2, Mint 17.1 has Cinnamon 2.4, Mint 17.2 will have Cinnamon 2.6, Mint 17.3 will have Cinnamon 2.8… etc. On the LMDE side, Betsy has Cinnamon 2.4 at the moment, 2.6 later on, 2.8 later on… http://segfault.linuxmint.com/2015/02/a ... ent-242126
*

This past August, in the first comment on a Linux Mint Blog post, Clem says that popular applications and even desktops (I think that's what he means by "DEs") will be backported in LMDE Betsy:
Edit by Clem: Hi Mike, there won’t be any UP9 or UP10, these were snapshots, update packs. We’ll move from UP8 to Jessie, after that the base will be the same as in Debian. In terms of release management we’ll have to make sure things continue to work for both bases for a while and people can make the jump when it suits them, so at some stage we’ll have UP8 as you know it now and a set of repositories ready for you to jump to (probably very similar to how it works in Mint, with a Jessie set on packages.linuxmint.com and a Debian Jessie base). On top of Jessie, we’ll be doing something similar to what we’re doing with Trusty… i.e. you’ll get security updates and bug fixes from upstream on an ongoing basis with the same filter/policy as in mintupdate and we’ll backport popular apps, DEs and Mint tools. Based on the popularity of LMDE we’ll need to decide a few additional details when it comes to release strategy (namely multi-tracking and the ability to opt-in between point releases). http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=2606#comment-106715
The whole idea of shifting to Debian Stable for LMDE and to LTS for regular Linux Mint is to allow both to have stable bases, while being kept up to date in the desktops and applications that they use. It's supposed to, as far as I understand, allow for more consistent and fresh up dates to the applications people actually use, by freeing up time spent on just keeping the system working, since they won't have to worry about the base so much. So in some ways LMDE and regular Mint should be more up to date and more fresh, with the new plan.

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:27 am
by py-thon
At first LMDE2 was announced as the rock solid and ultimately stable alternative to "regular" Mint using Debian Stable repos vs. Mint's Ubuntu ones. Now Clem says "In line with what LMDE is to Linux Mint, this would make LMDE a tiny bit more risky than Linux Mint and a tiny bit more exciting for experienced users."
Additionally "a set of repositories ready for you to jump to" sounds as if LMDE2 is no longer intended to use Debian Stable repos directly. This would mean that the constant issue of different opinions about whether security updates are necessary or not will go on.

killer de bug speaks of the next Cinnamon version to be developed for Debian Stable and not necessarily be available in Testing and Sid. Regular Mint is based on Ubuntu which is somewhat based on Testing and Sid :?

Am I the only one seeing contradictions and problems in all this? Reading things like that makes me lose the last bit of faith in either Mint version. There does not seem to be a direction in the development anymore.

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:05 pm
by Zill
py-thon wrote:...Am I the only one seeing contradictions and problems in all this?
No, you're not! I cannot see how the Debian Stable base can reliably co-exist with the latest Mint specific packages and their dependencies!
py-thon wrote:...Reading things like that makes me lose the last bit of faith in either Mint version. There does not seem to be a direction in the development anymore.
Despite my concerns about the apparent mix'n'match of packages, I do still have confidence in Clem and the team to think it all through and make it work. It's just that my aged brain has great difficulty in understanding the process... ;-)

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:47 pm
by killer de bug
py-thon wrote: killer de bug speaks of the next Cinnamon version to be developed for Debian Stable and not necessarily be available in Testing and Sid. Regular Mint is based on Ubuntu which is somewhat based on Testing and Sid :?
Regular Mint has a frozen base. It will be the same for 2 years and this base is older than Jessie.

Cinnamon and Nemo are specifically developed for these 2 bases now. No missing dep or libs...
There is no problem with Clem's writing...

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:13 pm
by cb474
Yeah, what Clem is saying makes sense to me too. It's going to be more stable and secure. It will get all the security patches that go to Debian Stable in a timely fashion (as they are released); Mint specific applications (Cinammon, Mate, Mint Updates, etc.) will be kept up to date and have their dependencies based on what's in Debian Stable; and popular applications (Firefox, etc.) will be patched and backported.

It seems much more sustainable that what LMDE was. Much easier to keep stable and secure. And it allows the Mint devs to focus on what they mainly do, which is improving Mint specific packages. In my reading, this is exactly what Clem has said in more than one place.

*

The only real hitch I see is what the Mint devs decide to put on the list of popular packages to backport. This could lead to security issues for packages that aren't backported (but have new security features), though of course if the packages remain based on whatever is in Debian Stable it will still get security patches for bugs. I have been a little surprised as LMDE has languished without updates for the past year, that Chromium has not been updated, while Firefox has. The are so many security issues with browsers and is such a dominant part of what people do, they seem like a primary package that should be kept up to date. And given that Chromium is now as widely used as Firefox, leaving it not updated seems problematic to me (especially for any LMDE users who do not realize that's what is happening).

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:51 pm
by woodsman
that Chromium has not been updated, while Firefox has.
Barely. :) Getting Firefox updates in LMDE seems to always be a test of Job's patience. Firefox currently is a version behind in LMDE.
The are so many security issues with browsers and is such a dominant part of what people do, they seem like a primary package that should be kept up to date.
Exactly. Firefox updates should be automated in LMDE.

The Flash plugin, which are always security updates, suffers similarly. Currently a version behind in LMDE. :(

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:10 pm
by Matt3223
Cool, sounds like new tactics are brewing with LMDE! With CrunchBang being done, I am looking forward to coming back to some new LMDE and Cinnamon...

Reading all this make me feel I will stay on CrunchBang Waldorf with backkported IceWeasel until LMDE 2 is ready.

Looking forward to it!

Re: when lmde 2 (betsy) will be available?

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:24 pm
by cb474
woodsman wrote:
that Chromium has not been updated, while Firefox has.
Barely. :) Getting Firefox updates in LMDE seems to always be a test of Job's patience. Firefox currently is a version behind in LMDE.
The are so many security issues with browsers and is such a dominant part of what people do, they seem like a primary package that should be kept up to date.
Exactly. Firefox updates should be automated in LMDE.

The Flash plugin, which are always security updates, suffers similarly. Currently a version behind in LMDE. :(
Firefox and flash are up to date in my install of LMDE.

Firefox has always seemed to be updated in a more or less timely fashion. Sometimes flash seems to get overlooked, until someone says something. But they are updated. Chromium is at least a year out of date.

I actually found that you can download the Chromium .deb for Wheezy, from the Debian packages website and it installs fine. The .deb for Jesse doesn't work because it has dependencies that are newer packages than in current LMDE. But the Wheezy .deb should be patched and fine, as far as security goes.