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Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:22 am
by reference2myself
But for example if you upgrade now, you end with systemd and not the init system that was chosen for Betsy.
After several update attempts I noticed the systemd influence. I concluded the original post method is no longer viable. :)
I wrote it before they decided to stick with sysvinit. They both work and it's easy to switch.

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:51 am
by woodsman
Guys, please note that a simple "upgrade didn't work for me" isn't of much value to the developers. We can't telepathically find out what went wrong in your system. We need to see what dist-upgrade showed you, e.g. which packages would be removed or held back (the latter might be the most important part as it usually indicates some problems among your packages).
Sure will --- as soon as the devs start an official Betsy testing thread.

My testing thus far is not helpful to the devs because I used the sources mentioned in the original post of this thread. That update path no longer works. To really test updating requires the Update Manager (UM) pulling updated sources information. While I can test from the command line, most users are just going to click the blue "i" icon to update and that is what I want to test.

My concern with updating to Betsy is the people I support. If updating with the UM proves to be a challenge then likely I will have to perform the update for them and that costs them money.
They both work and it's easy to switch.
Perhaps, but there is no official documentation yet.
I don't understand your point here.
The devs announced they would stick with sysv and that is how the updating process should work.
So... it works!
Uh, no. :) Only somebody experienced with the command line methods of updating can make the update work. To other users that method is broken.

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:55 am
by ddurdle
I updated my sources.list to original post

deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://packages.linuxmint.com betsy main upstream import
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://www.deb-multimedia.org jessie main non-free
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://extra.linuxmint.com betsy main


But when I run apt-get update I always get a NODATA error

Ign http://dl.google.com stable InRelease
Ign http://extra.linuxmint.com betsy InRelease
Get:1 http://ftp.us.debian.org jessie InRelease [199 kB]
Ign http://packages.linuxmint.com betsy InRelease
Ign http://linux.dropbox.com maverick InRelease
Get:2 http://extra.linuxmint.com betsy Release.gpg [198 B]
Get:3 http://linux.dropbox.com maverick Release.gpg [489 B]
Get:4 http://packages.linuxmint.com betsy Release.gpg [198 B]
Ign http://ftp.us.debian.org jessie InRelease
E: GPG error: http://ftp.us.debian.org jessie InRelease: The following signatures were invalid: NODATA 2

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:09 am
by reference2myself
ddurdle wrote:I updated my sources.list to original post

deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://packages.linuxmint.com betsy main upstream import
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://www.deb-multimedia.org jessie main non-free
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://extra.linuxmint.com betsy main


But when I run apt-get update I always get a NODATA error

Ign http://dl.google.com stable InRelease
Ign http://extra.linuxmint.com betsy InRelease
Get:1 http://ftp.us.debian.org jessie InRelease [199 kB]
Ign http://packages.linuxmint.com betsy InRelease
Ign http://linux.dropbox.com maverick InRelease
Get:2 http://extra.linuxmint.com betsy Release.gpg [198 B]
Get:3 http://linux.dropbox.com maverick Release.gpg [489 B]
Get:4 http://packages.linuxmint.com betsy Release.gpg [198 B]
Ign http://ftp.us.debian.org jessie InRelease
E: GPG error: http://ftp.us.debian.org jessie InRelease: The following signatures were invalid: NODATA 2
Upgrade debian-archive-keyring. Also it should be noted the repos I posted are for the U.S. Jessie repo. If you live somewhere else change them to your local area.

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:50 am
by ddurdle
reference2myself wrote:
ddurdle wrote:I updated my sources.list to original post

deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://packages.linuxmint.com betsy main upstream import
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://www.deb-multimedia.org jessie main non-free
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://extra.linuxmint.com betsy main


But when I run apt-get update I always get a NODATA error

Ign http://dl.google.com stable InRelease
Ign http://extra.linuxmint.com betsy InRelease
Get:1 http://ftp.us.debian.org jessie InRelease [199 kB]
Ign http://packages.linuxmint.com betsy InRelease
Ign http://linux.dropbox.com maverick InRelease
Get:2 http://extra.linuxmint.com betsy Release.gpg [198 B]
Get:3 http://linux.dropbox.com maverick Release.gpg [489 B]
Get:4 http://packages.linuxmint.com betsy Release.gpg [198 B]
Ign http://ftp.us.debian.org jessie InRelease
E: GPG error: http://ftp.us.debian.org jessie InRelease: The following signatures were invalid: NODATA 2
Upgrade debian-archive-keyring. Also it should be noted the repos I posted are for the U.S. Jessie repo. If you live somewhere else change them to your local area.
Thanks for the advise. I noticed dropbox was trying to update itself automatically and filled /tmp/. Cleared /tmp, stopped dropbox, and doing the update now. The error was related to /tmp being full

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:21 pm
by killer de bug
woodsman wrote: My testing thus far is not helpful to the devs because I used the sources mentioned in the original post of this thread. That update path no longer works. To really test updating requires the Update Manager (UM) pulling updated sources information. While I can test from the command line, most users are just going to click the blue "i" icon to update and that is what I want to test.
[...]
Perhaps, but there is no official documentation yet.
[...]
The devs announced they would stick with sysv and that is how the updating process should work.
[...]
Uh, no. :) Only somebody experienced with the command line methods of updating can make the update work. To other users that method is broken.
Official work of the upgrade path has not started. So why are you expecting that everything is working perfectly well?
Of course at the moment, you need to be skilled to do it and not be afraid of breaking your system.

You need to know what you want because it's difficult to follow you. Either you want to test Betsy and you don't mind doing it with the terminal and you know how to fix things. Or you prefer doing it in a safe way and you wait until it has been worked out. But yes for sure today, as no official work has been done yet you cannot expect everything to work from scratch...

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:26 pm
by ddurdle
killer de bug wrote:
woodsman wrote: My testing thus far is not helpful to the devs because I used the sources mentioned in the original post of this thread. That update path no longer works. To really test updating requires the Update Manager (UM) pulling updated sources information. While I can test from the command line, most users are just going to click the blue "i" icon to update and that is what I want to test.
[...]
Perhaps, but there is no official documentation yet.
[...]
The devs announced they would stick with sysv and that is how the updating process should work.
[...]
Uh, no. :) Only somebody experienced with the command line methods of updating can make the update work. To other users that method is broken.
Official work of the upgrade path has not started. So why are you expecting that everything is working perfectly well?
Of course at the moment, you need to be skilled to do it and not be afraid of breaking your system.

You need to know what you want because it's difficult to follow you. Either you want to test Betsy and you don't mind doing it with the terminal and you know how to fix things. Or you prefer doing it in a safe way and you wait until it has been worked out. But yes for sure today, as no official work has been done yet you cannot expect everything to work from scratch...
Agreed, guess everyone is eager.

I use BTRFS, I created a snapshot and set forth to "try" it out as laid out in the original post, using traditional methods. The apt-get upgrade went fine, the apt-get dist-upgrade, not so much. It errored out so I reran with a -f. Get to the point where it fails for caja returning error code (1). I didn't bother even trying to boot the system. I did keep the snapshot around to play with when I have the time. I'm 99% certain the system wouldn't be useable.

I saved the failed attempt and pointed things back to the snapshot I took before the upgrade and was back in action after a reboot. Love BTRFS :)

I noticed Compiz got removed as part of the upgrade. I know the repository removed it, but I thought I could hold it back. I was toying with the idea of bothering to do the install knowing my nice Compiz setup would be gone after I upgraded. I was good sport and figured it would be time to give Cinnamon another try (until hopefully one day Compiz support comes back, ya right).

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:46 pm
by woodsman
Official work of the upgrade path has not started.
Yes, I have learned as much.
So why are you expecting that everything is working perfectly well?
I never wrote that. :)

I only shared my recent experience. My point was to share that the method announced in the original post no longer succeeds unless using a lot of sweat equity and experience. As I am an experienced Linux user I don't mind testing from the command line. Yes, I finally got everything installed. Most non technical and inexperienced users won't be able to repeat my effort.

I also tested updating with the Update Manager using the sources of the original post. Same breakage. :)

Previously I mentioned the Update Manager because that is how most people will update to Betsy. Pointy-clicky. :) That is how the people I support will update. Hence, that is what I am eager to test. As that path is not yet available, I'll wait until I see some announcements.

If the Update Manager is little more than a wrapper to apt/dpkg, then I could share with the dev team what broke during my efforts. If the Update Manager is more than a mere wrapper, then I'll wait for the announcements before again testing.

I presumed with the RC announcements that Update Manager testing was part of the QA process before releasing the RC. Apparently not. :)
Agreed, guess everyone is eager.
LMDE users have been waiting a long time. So we wait some more....

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:52 pm
by reference2myself
Cinnamon has gotten better. It's still no compiz though. I'm really considering giving KDE a run. I do miss all the effects. Compiz is the reason I started using linux back in like 07. When windows was still on xp there was compiz giving linux the dopest UI you could get on a desktop. Gnome isn't even a desktop environment anymore. Compiz is a dead project. It's all very depressing. I had high hopes that gnome or cinnamon would pick up compiz like effects, but it never happened. Burning closing windows, genie lamp minimize, dodging widows on select, window preview when hover mouse over app in tray, and the cube, i miss the cube as useless as it was, it was super amusing. It makes me want to learn how to program just so I can do it myself.

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:32 pm
by ddurdle
reference2myself wrote:Cinnamon has gotten better. It's still no compiz though. I'm really considering giving KDE a run. I do miss all the effects. Compiz is the reason I started using linux back in like 07. When windows was still on xp there was compiz giving linux the dopest UI you could get on a desktop. Gnome isn't even a desktop environment anymore. Compiz is a dead project. It's all very depressing. I had high hopes that gnome or cinnamon would pick up compiz like effects, but it never happened. Burning closing windows, genie lamp minimize, dodging widows on select, window preview when hover mouse over app in tray, and the cube, i miss the cube as useless as it was, it was super amusing. It makes me want to learn how to program just so I can do it myself.

I'm a simple person, and probably only use 5-10% of the features of Compiz, but that amounts to a lot of "productivity". Some of the features are found elsewhere, but not all.

Here is what I use on a daily basis:
1) terminal transparency
2) snapping (alt left resize+snaps window to left half of screen, alt right resize+snaps to right half of the screen).
3) ctrl+shift+1/2/3/4 resize+snaps the window to their appropriate screen quadrant. Makes it easy to visibly see 4 running apps.
4) dragging apps to 1 of 3 defined workspaces
5) various shortcut keys
6) rotating workspaces with a keypress
7) sticky a window to the top
8) zoom out on a window
9) window preview

7+8 I use often if I have something I want to keep an eye on (could be as simple as a running process or a playing video). The zoom out essentially makes a "window preview" (#8), tack that onto #7 and you have a little "postage stamp" that is always ontop that you can drag around on the screen. Makes doing work and watching a little video in little "picture-in-picture" possible. If I could only keep one component, it would be that.

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:20 pm
by killer de bug
ddurdle wrote: Makes doing work and watching a little video in little "picture-in-picture" possible. If I could only keep one component, it would be that.
Use mpv as you video player.
When playing, use the Shift + T shortcut for 'stay on top'. Then you can resize your window, and you have exactly what you are looking for :wink:

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:23 pm
by killer de bug
woodsman wrote: I also tested updating with the Update Manager using the sources of the original post. Same breakage. :)
I need to redo it because I had no major breakage. But I use Cinnamon and it seems that breakages come with Mate.

For me I did:

Code: Select all

apt dist-upgrade

Code: Select all

apt -f install

Code: Select all

apt dist-upgrade
I got a few packages hold at the end because of MintUpdate-Debian. I removed it, and installed MintUpdate. Then, it was the final apt dist-upgrade and installation of the new Cinnamon/Nemo extension and... enjoy :)

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:41 pm
by woodsman
For me I did:
More or less what I had to do, although I did not record the exact steps. I have Mate installed and I had to temporarily remove some Mate related packages to complete the second dist-upgrade. I do not think that would be possible from a live desktop running Mate rather than from a console. After I completed the second dist-upgrade I then pressed the up arrow twice, replaced the word 'remove' with 'install' and that seemed to work to get all Mate packages updated.

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:15 pm
by reference2myself
ddurdle wrote:I'm a simple person, and probably only use 5-10% of the features of Compiz, but that amounts to a lot of "productivity". Some of the features are found elsewhere, but not all.

Here is what I use on a daily basis:
1) terminal transparency
2) snapping (alt left resize+snaps window to left half of screen, alt right resize+snaps to right half of the screen).
3) ctrl+shift+1/2/3/4 resize+snaps the window to their appropriate screen quadrant. Makes it easy to visibly see 4 running apps.
4) dragging apps to 1 of 3 defined workspaces
5) various shortcut keys
6) rotating workspaces with a keypress
7) sticky a window to the top
8) zoom out on a window
9) window preview

7+8 I use often if I have something I want to keep an eye on (could be as simple as a running process or a playing video). The zoom out essentially makes a "window preview" (#8), tack that onto #7 and you have a little "postage stamp" that is always ontop that you can drag around on the screen. Makes doing work and watching a little video in little "picture-in-picture" possible. If I could only keep one component, it would be that.
Betsy+Cinnamon does almost all of these. You should probably give it a spin.

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:15 pm
by all41
Working with no issues so far. Thanks to the team for this

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:31 am
by reference2myself
Well guys Betsy was fun but now that everyone else has it it's kind of lost its appeal. I hope you guys all enjoy it. I decided Arch is a better fit for someone like me.

Just built a custom Arch Cinnamon from the ground up.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/218 ... 2%3A44.png

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:46 am
by reference2myself
Cinnamon is much more responsive on Arch than it is on LMDE. It's ironic considering it's mints desktop. I had a little bit of lag mousing through the menu on lmde that used to annoy me, and it's instant on Arch. Probably not related to cinnamon though. I think it just does everything a little faster. Better optimized for i686/x86-64.

Edit: Ehh, menu is laggy in Arch too after populating it with just as many apps.

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:51 am
by all41
from the ground up.
I hope to eventually acquire the skills to venture into something like this as well.
Good luck

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:58 am
by reference2myself
all41 wrote:
from the ground up.
I hope to eventually acquire the skills to venture into something like this as well.
Good luck
Honestly was way easier than I thought it would be. Used a couple tutorials and tried it out on a few virtual machines before taking it to the bare metal. Definitely gotta have some experience under your belt though and knowledge of what packages you want/need since you're starting with literally nothing. It was a fun, once debian seems easy breezy to you go give it a whirl.

Re: LMDE 2 Betsy with Cinnamon 2.4

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:36 pm
by killer de bug
Nice desktop with Arch. I agree that it can be a good combination but I'm also really sure that it will break soon. As soon as you will update the core libs of Gnome to the next version in fact. :?