A few questions...

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slumbergod
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A few questions...

Post by slumbergod »

Hi all,

1. Is the signing key issue that worries a few people only related to the GUI software manager? If you use the cli normally can you import the keys?

2. Does anyone know if there will be a new DVD image anytime soon? I only ask because I understand there are over 200 updates and unfortunately my home connection is via a cellular network so I am restricted over my download capacity. A newer image might reduce the update to a more manageable level.

3. Not knowing as much about Debian and rolling releases as others, I was curious what happens when a new kernel is available in Squeeze. Does that mean *almost* every core system package (and many application packages) suddenly need to be recompiled for the repo because they break?

4. Finally, the updated application pàckages are coming from Mint repos rather than Squeeze?

JasonLG
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Re: A few questions...

Post by JasonLG »

slumbergod wrote:Hi all,

1. Is the signing key issue that worries a few people only related to the GUI software manager? If you use the cli normally can you import the keys?

2. Does anyone know if there will be a new DVD image anytime soon? I only ask because I understand there are over 200 updates and unfortunately my home connection is via a cellular network so I am restricted over my download capacity. A newer image might reduce the update to a more manageable level.

3. Not knowing as much about Debian and rolling releases as others, I was curious what happens when a new kernel is available in Squeeze. Does that mean *almost* every core system package (and many application packages) suddenly need to be recompiled for the repo because they break?

4. Finally, the updated application pàckages are coming from Mint repos rather than Squeeze?
1. The GUI and CLI are both apt(Advanced Package Manager) and both do the same thing. The GUI software manager(Mint Install) just doesn't show you the complaint like the CLI does. The GUI imports keys it just doesn't tell you.

2. Mint is release when the dev's deem it ready, usually about a month or so after the corresponding Ubuntu release. So expect version 10 in around November-ish.

3. If you don't know much about Debian than you should probably use the Ubuntu derivatives. The repo packagers handle that stuff you shouldn't need to recompile anything.

4. I don't know.
"I see" said the blind man to the deaf man who stuck his wooden leg out the window to check the weather.

slumbergod
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Re: A few questions...

Post by slumbergod »

Thanks,

1. Is this really a bit problem if one is just sticking to the default repos that are configured with the installation?
2. Yeah, I realise that. I just read somewhere that a new ISO was being prepared and I figured if it really wasn't far away may it was worth holding off for a bit.
3. Umm, I think my questions are really not so much about debian but more so about this new distro. I have been using Linux for six years, starting with my university degree in computer science. I just want to make sure I understand fully the implications of LMDE before I go to install it.
4. Me neither. I'd read that Firefox was not included in Squeeze cos they use their Iceweasel implementation instead. Then I read that Firefox had been updated to 3.6.9 so it obviously came from somewhere and I wondered if it was a Mint repo that'd been added.

JasonLG wrote:
1. The GUI and CLI are both apt(Advanced Package Manager) and both do the same thing. The GUI software manager(Mint Install) just doesn't show you the complaint like the CLI does. The GUI imports keys it just doesn't tell you.

2. Mint is release when the dev's deem it ready, usually about a month or so after the corresponding Ubuntu release. So expect version 10 in around November-ish.

3. If you don't know much about Debian than you should probably use the Ubuntu derivatives. The repo packagers handle that stuff you shouldn't need to recompile anything.

4. I don't know.

secipolla
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Re: A few questions...

Post by secipolla »

2. To reduce your downloads and also speed them, install the package debdelta

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get install debdelta
Then upgrade your system like this

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get update && sudo debdelta-upgrade && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
note: there are NO collateral effects on doing this, it's simply better (debdelta downloads only the differences between the packages to be updated).
3. The kernel has nothing to do with it as long as it's for the same CPU architecture (i686, AMD64 etc.).
4. LMDE uses Debian testing's packages + some unique from Mint ("main") + some replaced by Mint ("upstream"; currently only Xchat) + some based on outside sources ("import") like Firefox. See: http://packages.linuxmint.com/list.php?release=Debian
P.S. the "Romeo" section is for testing packages (like the new mintmenu).

Tibuda
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Re: A few questions...

Post by Tibuda »

3. No, this is not Gentoo. You don't have to compile stuff.

tenfoot
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Re: A few questions...

Post by tenfoot »

To secipolla on 16 Sep 2010, 08:05

If I install deb-delta does it "kick in" when I do an update through update manager? To try and explain myself a little clearer.

(1) I install debdelta
(2) Update manager icon shows there are updates.
(3) I click to install them
(4) Without debdelta the install is of the complete files updated
(5) Does the fact that I have debdelta installed mean that only the differences between the installed files and those requiring updates are done?

secipolla
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Re: A few questions...

Post by secipolla »

tenfoot wrote:To secipolla on 16 Sep 2010, 08:05

If I install deb-delta does it "kick in" when I do an update through update manager? To try and explain myself a little clearer.

(1) I install debdelta
(2) Update manager icon shows there are updates.
(3) I click to install them
(4) Without debdelta the install is of the complete files updated
(5) Does the fact that I have debdelta installed mean that only the differences between the installed files and those requiring updates are done?
For that to happen, mintupdate (Update manager) will/would have to be tweaked to use debdelta. That's up to Clem deciding, probably.
EDIT- that is, if mintupdate calls 'apt-get dist-upgrade', it would have instead to call 'debdelta-upgrade' and 'apt-get dist-upgrade'. That needs a rewrite in the application.
debdelta needs to be called explicitly. In case of system upgrades, the command is (sudo) debdelta-upgrade.
For little upgrades, while it still downloads less than the full package it may take a bit more time since it recreates the new packages, but for big updates (specially big packages) it's much faster.
EDIT2- having a checkbox in an Advanced panel for enabling/disabling debdelta would be a nice feature for mintupdate. (note: I don't use Mint, I've contributed to the translation of mintupdate and I don't recall any reference to debdelta).

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tdockery97
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Re: A few questions...

Post by tdockery97 »

secipolla wrote:2. To reduce your downloads and also speed them, install the package debdelta

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get install debdelta
Then upgrade your system like this

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get update && sudo debdelta-upgrade && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
note: there are NO collateral effects on doing this, it's simply better (debdelta downloads only the differences between the packages to be updated).
3. The kernel has nothing to do with it as long as it's for the same CPU architecture (i686, AMD64 etc.).
4. LMDE uses Debian testing's packages + some unique from Mint ("main") + some replaced by Mint ("upstream"; currently only Xchat) + some based on outside sources ("import") like Firefox. See: http://packages.linuxmint.com/list.php?release=Debian
P.S. the "Romeo" section is for testing packages (like the new mintmenu).
OK, I just ran those commands and it did its thing. So now everything on my system that had new updates available is updated?
Mint Cinnamon 19.3

secipolla
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Re: A few questions...

Post by secipolla »

tdockery97 wrote:OK, I just ran those commands and it did its thing. So now everything on my system that had new updates available is updated?
Yes.

Some other useful commands:

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get autoremove --purge
This purges (removes completely) packages that once were installed as dependencies for another package that may have been removed or had the dependencies changed.

Code: Select all

deborphan
Needs deborphan package. This shows unused libraries that should be safe to remove/purge (note: only remove libraries, some third-parties applications may be listed, just ignore them if it happens).

note: sudo can be used but logging in as root in the terminal (su + password) or opening the root terminal can be used too and then no need to put sudo in front of everything.
apt-get remove, removes a package
apt-get purge, removes a package and its configuration files from /etc (as far as i know)

vincent
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Re: A few questions...

Post by vincent »

Note that if you do decide to use debdelta, you should never run "sudo apt-get clean", or clean out your APT archives in any other way, defeating the entire purpose of debdelta. If you download and install a lot of software through APT, you'll notice that the APT archive (/var/cache/apt/archives) can take up a substantial portion of your / partition if it isn't cleaned out occasionally, so debdelta isn't really suitable for everyone. Take me for example...I have a high-speed internet connection, but limited hard disk space; for me, I'd rather use less hard drive space, in exchange for downloads through APT to take a few more seconds/minutes than it would if I used debdelta instead.
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secipolla
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Re: A few questions...

Post by secipolla »

vincent wrote:Note that if you do decide to use debdelta, you should never run "sudo apt-get clean", or clean out your APT archives in any other way, defeating the entire purpose of debdelta. If you download and install a lot of software through APT, you'll notice that the APT archive (/var/cache/apt/archives) can take up a substantial portion of your / partition if it isn't cleaned out occasionally, so debdelta isn't really suitable for everyone. Take me for example...I have a high-speed internet connection, but limited hard disk space; for me, I'd rather use less hard drive space, in exchange for downloads through APT to take a few more seconds/minutes than it would if I used debdelta instead.
I understand what you're saying, Vincent, but that isn't true. There's no problem at all in running 'apt-get clean'. debdelta creates the new packages from the installed files so it doesn't work only with applications that have had files manually replaced/deleted (if you use localepurge etc.).

EDIT - if you manually edit a config file in /etc, debdelta still works.
Last edited by secipolla on Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

JasonLG
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Re: A few questions...

Post by JasonLG »

slumbergod wrote:Thanks,

1. Is this really a bit problem if one is just sticking to the default repos that are configured with the installation?
2. Yeah, I realise that. I just read somewhere that a new ISO was being prepared and I figured if it really wasn't far away may it was worth holding off for a bit.
3. Umm, I think my questions are really not so much about debian but more so about this new distro. I have been using Linux for six years, starting with my university degree in computer science. I just want to make sure I understand fully the implications of LMDE before I go to install it.
4. Me neither. I'd read that Firefox was not included in Squeeze cos they use their Iceweasel implementation instead. Then I read that Firefox had been updated to 3.6.9 so it obviously came from somewhere and I wondered if it was a Mint repo that'd been added.
1. The default repos all have keys.
2. Then why did you ask? My guess would be that they will respin LMDE every few months, as it just came out it could be a while before they update the ISO.
3. Awesome, I've been using Linux for about a year and got 1st place in my second grade science fair was I was 7. :lol: LMDE is Debian plus restricted codecs, Mint tools, a little theming and some changes in the default apps basically so a question about LMDE is a question about Debian. It just seemed to me from your questions that you could benefit from the Ubuntu versions smoother edges being unfamiliar with a Debian based system.
4. That would lead me to believe that at least some packages are coming from Mint.
"I see" said the blind man to the deaf man who stuck his wooden leg out the window to check the weather.

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kmb42vt
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Re: A few questions...

Post by kmb42vt »

@Slumbergod - As far as Firefox and Thunderbird for that matter are concerned, Clem is now packaging up these programs for Debian so to answer your question, you will always have the latest updates for both programs and they come from the Linux Mint side of things. LMDE does not install Iceweasel by default and probably never will. Pure Debian Testing only includes unbranded software hence Iceweasel which is actually a significantly older version of Firefox (currently 3.5.9 I believe vs Firefox 3.6.9).
"Humph. Choice, it is the quintessential Linux delusion, simultaneously the source of it's greatest strength, and it's greatest weakness." (All apologies to The Architect)

slumbergod
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Re: A few questions...

Post by slumbergod »

@jasonlg
1. The default repos all have keys.
Thank you, that was what I was after.

2. Then why did you ask?
Because where I currently live, downloading 800+Mb is a big deal. If someone has said there was going to be a revised version in a week or two I would have held off for that.

3. Awesome, I've been using Linux for about a year and got 1st place in my second grade science fair was I was 7.
Gee, congratulations. You know, I really don't need your sarcasm and cynicism. I think it's fantastic that you are obviously super intelligent and disappointed that everyone else's questions must seem stupid to you. But if you don't have something constructive and supportive to add try ignoring my posts. I could be a jerk too but I happen to like helping people and I never find people's questions stupid.

4. That would lead me to believe that at least some packages are coming from Mint.
So in other words you don't really know which would mean that you are answering for the sake of answering not because you have constructive answers. Thanks for the answer to #1, however. That *was* informative and useful to me.

slumbergod
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Re: A few questions...

Post by slumbergod »

Thanks, that is great news. I see 3.6.10 has just been released by the Firefox team.
kmb42vt wrote:@Slumbergod - As far as Firefox and Thunderbird for that matter are concerned, Clem is now packaging up these programs for Debian so to answer your question, you will always have the latest updates for both programs and they come from the Linux Mint side of things. LMDE does not install Iceweasel by default and probably never will. Pure Debian Testing only includes unbranded software hence Iceweasel which is actually a significantly older version of Firefox (currently 3.5.9 I believe vs Firefox 3.6.9).

JasonLG
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Re: A few questions...

Post by JasonLG »

slumbergod wrote:@jasonlg
1. The default repos all have keys.
Thank you, that was what I was after.

2. Then why did you ask?
Because where I currently live, downloading 800+Mb is a big deal. If someone has said there was going to be a revised version in a week or two I would have held off for that.

3. Awesome, I've been using Linux for about a year and got 1st place in my second grade science fair was I was 7.
Gee, congratulations. You know, I really don't need your sarcasm and cynicism. I think it's fantastic that you are obviously super intelligent and disappointed that everyone else's questions must seem stupid to you. But if you don't have something constructive and supportive to add try ignoring my posts. I could be a jerk too but I happen to like helping people and I never find people's questions stupid.

4. That would lead me to believe that at least some packages are coming from Mint.
So in other words you don't really know which would mean that you are answering for the sake of answering not because you have constructive answers. Thanks for the answer to #1, however. That *was* informative and useful to me.

Relax the science fair crack was only in response to you trying to get some geek cred(more than slightly spiteful yourself by the way) by saying that you've been using Linux for 6 years and have a degree in computer science. It was a joke to illustrate the fact that no one really cares what degree anyone has or how long they've been using Linux here, what matters is how much do you actually know. I wasn't trying to be a jerk, just make a funny. :D You should have seen it, it was a darn good volcano.

You're right I didn't really know about what and how many packages come Mint or Debian, I never said I did. I was making a reasonable assumption.

I may not have a fancy college eja-ma-cation or be a Linux guru but I answer a fair amount of questions around here to the best of my abilities.
"I see" said the blind man to the deaf man who stuck his wooden leg out the window to check the weather.

slumbergod
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Re: A few questions...

Post by slumbergod »

Ok, that's a fair point. I really didn't word that very well and I apologise for trying to imply I am something I am not.

What I should have said was that although I have been around linux for several years and even work in IT, my linux skills never developed past a certain point because they didn't need to -- Ubuntu kinda took care of everything for me. While I personally think that having a few easy to use linux distros is very important (***) I also realise that using Ubuntu isn't going to improve my skills any further; I need to take the plunge and since I am used to deb packages and aptitude a debian derivative is a good choice. I really believe in projects like LMDE and I hope in time I can make contributions too.

(***) read that as "strong popularity encourages hardware manufacturers to provide open source drivers"
JasonLG wrote: Relax the science fair crack was only in response to you trying to get some geek cred(more than slightly spiteful yourself by the way) by saying that you've been using Linux for 6 years and have a degree in computer science. It was a joke to illustrate the .

krimzonstarr
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Re: A few questions...

Post by krimzonstarr »

Synaptic > Origin
Will show you exactly which packages come from which repository.
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JasonLG
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Re: A few questions...

Post by JasonLG »

slumbergod wrote:Ok, that's a fair point. I really didn't word that very well and I apologise for trying to imply I am something I am not.

What I should have said was that although I have been around linux for several years and even work in IT, my linux skills never developed past a certain point because they didn't need to -- Ubuntu kinda took care of everything for me. While I personally think that having a few easy to use linux distros is very important (***) I also realise that using Ubuntu isn't going to improve my skills any further; I need to take the plunge and since I am used to deb packages and aptitude a debian derivative is a good choice. I really believe in projects like LMDE and I hope in time I can make contributions too.

(***) read that as "strong popularity encourages hardware manufacturers to provide open source drivers"
Right on, no worries.

I see your point about Ubuntu taking care of everything, and I agree the popularity of Ubuntu helps persuade manufactures to provide open source drivers. So I guess it's a little of a catch 22.
"I see" said the blind man to the deaf man who stuck his wooden leg out the window to check the weather.

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