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Re: No updates?

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:25 pm
by KBD47
LifeInTheGrey wrote:
If you really wanna try something adventurous (until UP4, that is), I personally have just installed straight Debian Testing from scratch running XFCE 4.8 with all the multimedia files one expects (I've already given a tutorial to one gentleman who was interested, so I could give a step-by-step guide). It doesn't have some of the Minty finishing touches (like it doesn't have proprietary programs like Firefox, only Iceweasel, and the standard flashplugin-nonfree, stuff like that), but it is ridiculously lightweight, super stable and is a great way to fill the gap between update packs. At the very least, you would learn a TON about how the Debian system works, I know I did.[/quote]

I find the straight Debian installer intimidating enough :) A step by step guide to using that crazy installer would be a job in itself I would think. Right now I will be happy if the Latest update packs don't bork my installs, after the freeze I'm planning on switching my repositories to Stable.
I really want the impossible, I want Debian Stable with updated software.
KBD47

Re: No updates?

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:33 pm
by KBD47
rhodry wrote:
What updates??? :)

Seriously, if you want to run a true Debian based rolling release, you need to move your repos to Sid. I prefer to call it that because "Unstable" is a misnoemer. Testing is only a rolling release for a window in time, until the next Stable freeze occurs, and after the freeze it is a flood for a while. That's way more "unstable" than Sid. The Update Packs just make sure it is never rolling.

The only real requirement when using Sid is that you stay well informed before you ever type in "apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade! I have NEVER had a Sid system break unless during a dist-upgrade; and even then recovery is usually quite possible. You must join the Debian Forums; even though the thread in here is very informative, Debian Weather is a good idea and install 'apt-listbugs'. If there is any doubt about an upgrade breaking something - just hold off until you are satisfied all is ok. You are in control of when updates/upgrades occurr. Learn how to 'pin' packages to hold the odd package back.

My only use for LMDE at the moment is that it makes a nice initial installer for Sid systems. The initial upgrade doesn't take long because I keep an AptOnCD handy. Borking the move to "Testing" is usually caused by leaving the Mint sources open or at least not 'pinning' everything appropriately. Have a go at moving to Sid, I think you will enjoy it. There's plenty of help around.

cheers,
rhodry.
I admire you guys who run Sid. I'm not that adventurous :-)
When I tried the dist upgrade on SalineOS it wouldn't even let me login afterward. When I ran the update on LMDE set to Testing (over 800 updates) it broke several things, one of which I remember was dropbox. I tried to fix a few things but got caught up in dependecy hell. Those things pretty much quenched any adventurous spirit in me. I'm getting tired of reinstalling OS's on my computer. I like to try out different systems on usb sticks, but once I get my main computer operating system where I want it, I really don't want it borked.
KBD47

Re: No updates?

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:38 pm
by LifeInTheGrey
KBD47 wrote:I admire you guys who run Sid. I'm not that adventurous :-)
When I tried the dist upgrade on SalineOS it wouldn't even let me login afterward. When I ran the update on LMDE set to Testing (over 800 updates) it broke several things, one of which I remember was dropbox. I tried to fix a few things but got caught up in dependecy hell. Those things pretty much quenched any adventurous spirit in me. I'm getting tired of reinstalling OS's on my computer. I like to try out different systems on usb sticks, but once I get my main computer operating system where I want it, I really don't want it borked.
KBD47
I would recommend giving aptitude a try, rather than apt-get. The veterans here will certain recall the old debates between the two, but for Debian-specific systems (rather than Ubuntu), I have found aptitude handles dependencies, breakages, and purging MUCH better. I mean it basically just does everything for you, and if there is a breakage it tries to provide a solution (although, if there is a breakage, I just don't go through the update ... i see what package breaks the update, pin it, and then do it). It would probably help more with XFCE than GNOME (just because GNOME is an entire version upgrade), but it might aid in your quest.

Re: No updates?

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:51 pm
by KBD47
LifeInTheGrey wrote:
I would recommend giving aptitude a try, rather than apt-get. The veterans here will certain recall the old debates between the two, but for Debian-specific systems (rather than Ubuntu), I have found aptitude handles dependencies, breakages, and purging MUCH better. I mean it basically just does everything for you, and if there is a breakage it tries to provide a solution (although, if there is a breakage, I just don't go through the update ... i see what package breaks the update, pin it, and then do it). It would probably help more with XFCE than GNOME (just because GNOME is an entire version upgrade), but it might aid in your quest.
I haven't heard much about aptitude, I usually see apt-get suggested. If it helps prevents breakage it would be a very good thing.
KBD47

Re: No updates?

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:12 pm
by LifeInTheGrey
KBD47 wrote:
LifeInTheGrey wrote:
I would recommend giving aptitude a try, rather than apt-get. The veterans here will certain recall the old debates between the two, but for Debian-specific systems (rather than Ubuntu), I have found aptitude handles dependencies, breakages, and purging MUCH better. I mean it basically just does everything for you, and if there is a breakage it tries to provide a solution (although, if there is a breakage, I just don't go through the update ... i see what package breaks the update, pin it, and then do it). It would probably help more with XFCE than GNOME (just because GNOME is an entire version upgrade), but it might aid in your quest.
I haven't heard much about aptitude, I usually see apt-get suggested. If it helps prevents breakage it would be a very good thing.
KBD47
Yeah, apt-get is more commonly used just because its been around longer. Aptitude was developed as an improvement upon the apt-get system, but old habits die hard, and a lot of people still use apt-get. If you have a little free time and want to read about the difference between the two (and I mean, who wouldn't haha), check out this article, it explains pretty well why aptitude is better (and why its more suited to your dependency hell problems :P).

Re: No updates?

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:26 pm
by KBD47
Thanks!

Re: No updates?

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:39 am
by tzunder
I am very happy for the maintainers to make considered decisions about delaying updates.
Stability is important and as such if the upstream is broken or the volunteers in Mint are too busy to check them, then I can wait.
If you want bleeding edge Debian, go get it..

Re: No updates?

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:08 pm
by ChiVampir
I'm wondering: If you are concerned with security because of the lack of updates (I know update pack 4 is coming, but I'm expecting there will be a while for update pack 5) is it possible to change the security repo to testing while using linux mint repos for multimedia? Or should you use either testing of linux mint for both?

I just changed into the linux mint repos (required by update pack 3) before that I just used testing without any major issues. Should I switch back or is the security and multimedia "repo mixing" I asked about above possible?

Re: No updates?

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:48 am
by zerozero

Re: No updates?

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:49 pm
by Brian49
LifeInTheGrey wrote:I would recommend giving aptitude a try, rather than apt-get.
After trying out aptitude and finding it very satisfactory, I thought I would be able to uninstall the apt package in which apt-get is included. But when I try to do that, via Synaptic, I get the "this may render your system unusable" message. Do you happen to know why that is, please? Many thanks.

Re: No updates?

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:04 pm
by viking777
Brian49 wrote:
LifeInTheGrey wrote:I would recommend giving aptitude a try, rather than apt-get.
After trying out aptitude and finding it very satisfactory, I thought I would be able to uninstall the apt package in which apt-get is included. But when I try to do that, via Synaptic, I get the "this may render your system unusable" message. Do you happen to know why that is, please? Many thanks.
You can't remove apt!!

Aptitude itself depends on apt.

Just forget the idea - for your own sake :)

Re: No updates?

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:48 pm
by Brian49
I certainly wasn't about to make any sudden move after getting that warning. But it's a bit surprising, when aptitude is bing contrasted with apt-get, to find that they both depend on apt anyway.

Re: No updates?

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:09 pm
by marcus0263
Brian49 wrote:I certainly wasn't about to make any sudden move after getting that warning. But it's a bit surprising, when aptitude is bing contrasted with apt-get, to find that they both depend on apt anyway.
aptitude is just an application that provides additional features to apt which is a core system program for debian. You know much like using brasero uses cdrdao to burn cd/dvd's.

Re: No updates?

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:21 pm
by Brian49
Thanks, I'm grateful for the explanation. I'm always on the lookout for ways to reduce the number of installed packages, but evidently this isn't one of them!

Re: No updates?

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:33 pm
by marcus0263
Brian49 wrote:Thanks, I'm grateful for the explanation. I'm always on the lookout for ways to reduce the number of installed packages, but evidently this isn't one of them!
You and me both ;)

Cheers

Re: No updates?

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:51 am
by ej64
KBD47 wrote:Right now I will be happy if the Latest update packs don't bork my installs, after the freeze I'm planning on switching my repositories to Stable. I really want the impossible, I want Debian Stable with updated software.
I stumbled over this. Don't do that literally!

ATM you are on something like testing=wheezy with Mint latest repos. The freeze is scheduled to take place in June, testing will then still be Wheezy and stable will still be Squeeze. Not until the release of Wheezy/Debian 7 (perhaps Jan 2013) will stable become Wheezy. If you will change your repos to "stable" after the freeze you are attempting to downgrade ...

What you can do after the freeze is changing your repos to "wheezy", that's testing atm and will become stable after the release. "testing" and "stable" (together with "oldstable") both are just links to the upcoming, actual and passing releases in their different release phases.

To get "updated software" after wheezy's release there will be a new repo called wheezy-backports. Make shure then (perhaps in Jan 2013) to add this new repo to your sources.list

Re: No updates?

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:45 am
by Blade20
I do not post often, but something about this post has just pushed me to. I have read as far into this thread as I could stand, and the complaints of how LMDE is dead or that the Mint team is putting someones system and or computer at risk are overwhelming. I have read how there is nothing we can do and how we should stop using LMDE, I have read how the Mint team should stop "tricking people" into installing LMDE. then I see people who really like LMDE for various reasons. but the one thing that I did not see (I did not read all pages of this thread) when told that the Mint team is small and doing the best they can. of all of the people that complained about the slow progress of LMDE not one offered to help in any way. If you have ever used Mint Ubuntu and know what Mint can do for that OS. think of what Mint can do for an OS that is already stable, and If you did not research you should. Debian is THE oldest running distro alive today. It is also known for it's stability. all of this comes from how it does it's updates. So as for me, Mint team, thank you all for your dedication, time, and hard work. just let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

Re: Re: No updates?

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:04 am
by marcus0263
Blade20 wrote:I do not post often, but something about this post has just pushed me to. I have read as far into this thread as I could stand, and the complaints of how LMDE is dead or that the Mint team is putting someones system and or computer at risk are overwhelming. I have read how there is nothing we can do and how we should stop using LMDE, I have read how the Mint team should stop "tricking people" into installing LMDE. then I see people who really like LMDE for various reasons. but the one thing that I did not see (I did not read all pages of this thread) when told that the Mint team is small and doing the best they can. of all of the people that complained about the slow progress of LMDE not one offered to help in any way. If you have ever used Mint Ubuntu and know what Mint can do for that OS. think of what Mint can do for an OS that is already stable, and If you did not research you should. Debian is THE oldest running distro alive today. It is also known for it's stability. all of this comes from how it does it's updates. So as for me, Mint team, thank you all for your dedication, time, and hard work. just let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
Agree except need to correct you, actually Slack ware is the oldest. ;-)

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk

Re: No updates?

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:19 am
by Blade20
Ok then I stand corrected, still 16ish years is a long run

Re: No updates?

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:06 am
by grraf
The waiting is pretty much over , up4 hit incoming repos (smth along the lines of 1gb worth of packages) and after some of use guinea pigs get to see the worst things that can happen it will be soon availible to everyone...
Fortunately for me it was an almost painless experience :minor issues with alsa(just needed to reconfigure it again) and my nvidia driver(forced to install it manualy after updates were done) other then that all went smooth.
Only down side for me : absence of mint menu but then again don't think it will be long till that's fixed