LMDE a sleeping distro?

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5oak
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by 5oak »

gosa wrote:And all I'm really missing right now is an updated web-browser, and that is only because there are things with regards to syncing with Windows versions of Firefox (running Windows at work) that is so much easier when you're on the same version number in all computers.
Here you go: http://packages.debian.org/sid/iceweasel
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clem
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by clem »

I've got 264 updates available on this computer right now, I won't take any. My system works fine, I'm behind a NAT router/firewall, I don't consider my home network a target. I like the idea that tomorrow when I boot my computer it will work the same way.

You have a point about security, but as much as security tends to be overrated, it's a minor point. In comparison to a switch to Gnome 3.0 or a regression which makes binary drivers incompatible with Xorg, it's completely irrelevant. The most immediate threat isn't some hacker that would decide to infiltrate your home computer (which if he wanted, would be easier using direct access or social engineering against you, your family, your friends and/or neighbours), the most immediate threat to your desktop is that updates have the potential to break your system.

It's not about saying "1 update pack per month" either, it's about making sure each update pack provides people with a safe platform, information on how to address issues and a path forward. Add to that the possibility for people to switch at anytime to Testing, or even to Unstable, and you've got something there for everybody.

You can look at it from the point of view of being left behind... or you can appreciate the fact that there's a protecting wall there, which whatever happens upstream, means you can continue to enjoy Gnome 2 until 3.2 is there with MGSE and MATE and X11 works the way it should. AND.. you can jump that wall if you desire to do so.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by GeneC »

clem wrote:...............

You can look at it from the point of view of being left behind... or you can appreciate the fact that there's a protecting wall there, which whatever happens upstream, means you can continue to enjoy Gnome 2 until 3.2 is there with MGSE and MATE and X11 works the way it should. AND.. you can jump that wall if you desire to do so.
Clem
This makes total sense.
However in the face of update pack4 being huge in size. (I think it does matter to some folks), and the fact that the jump from Gnome 2.3 to Gnome 3.2 will leave a lot of gnome 2.3 crud behind. Would it not be a good idea to release a new re-spin of LMDE-Gnome3.2/mgse/mate, or would that be too much work?

This is not for me. I run Testing Gnome 3.0, and SID Gnome 3.2, but for the folks running the update packs.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by clem »

Yes, probably.
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asymmetros
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by asymmetros »

Which is the best upgrading scheme? I do not know, i am not sure if there is one at all, but devs are making the decision and then, it's 'take it or leave it' -and Mint is totally flexible in that. The real "problem" (imho) was that LMDE was following for the last months an unknown upgrading scheme. Any user is free to choose Testing or Sid instead (as i did) but he also has the right to know which is the default upgrading scheme of the distro. Especially if he knows people running LMDE or guys thinking to change to LMDE -or if he wills to help by trying the new, incoming repos.
Fortunately, Clem clarified those points and everyone can make his/hers mind. Now, i guess there will be a LMDE edition, releasing UP's 4, 5 or 6 times a year, dist-upgrading and not re-install needed and a main edition, releasing twice a year, clean re-installation strongly recommended. My next, far guess, is that eventually one of them will be vanished in favor of the other but who knows?
For some of the guys keep talking about stability etc: it was not the case for the LMDE, at least for the first 10 months or so. It was following testing, squeeze in the beginning, wheezy later. I remember the topics about '...when the squeeze goes stable...', or '...is lmde really rolling...', the thread for trying the new Mintupdate-debian and so on. Next, we had the update packs and now the official word about LMDE's new character. Nice ride so far!
PS: Let's say xorg is okay. Even then, Xfce users they 'll have to wait for 'a nice 3.2 with MGSE and MATE' in order to have there upgrades. The logic behind this is obvious but the whole things sounds completely pointless.
PS2: chrome, chromium and unfortunately firefox, are presenting a new, superb edition about 10, 20 or 50 times a year. Each version brings almost extraterrestrial new features and addresses a billion of security problems. Too theatrical for my taste...
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by gsmanners »

asymmetros wrote:PS2: chrome, chromium and unfortunately firefox, are presenting a new, superb edition about 10, 20 or 50 times a year. Each version brings almost extraterrestrial new features and addresses a billion of security problems. Too theatrical for my taste...
Internet browsers are getting to be like their own OS. It makes sense to keep them updating because they are so complicated. Same thing goes for Office and certain multimedia applications. What would be really cool is a kind of delta method for upgrading specific things like Firefox or LO or VLC. That would probably save a huge amount of bandwidth on the upgrade repos.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by rhodry »

.....that's when update pack 4 comes out. How big it is and how long it takes, it doesn't matter.....
Finally, a bit of clarity from the lead developer. LMDE with sources aimed at "Latest" will not be a rolling release - be nice if the website advertising got altered accordingly. Otherwise it may or may not be useful to you as a staging install to run Debian Testing or Unstable.

Thanks. Makes usage (or not) decisions much easier.

rhodry.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by michaelzap »

clem wrote:I've got 264 updates available on this computer right now, I won't take any. My system works fine, I'm behind a NAT router/firewall, I don't consider my home network a target. I like the idea that tomorrow when I boot my computer it will work the same way.

You have a point about security, but as much as security tends to be overrated, it's a minor point. In comparison to a switch to Gnome 3.0 or a regression which makes binary drivers incompatible with Xorg, it's completely irrelevant. The most immediate threat isn't some hacker that would decide to infiltrate your home computer (which if he wanted, would be easier using direct access or social engineering against you, your family, your friends and/or neighbours), the most immediate threat to your desktop is that updates have the potential to break your system.

It's not about saying "1 update pack per month" either, it's about making sure each update pack provides people with a safe platform, information on how to address issues and a path forward. Add to that the possibility for people to switch at anytime to Testing, or even to Unstable, and you've got something there for everybody.

You can look at it from the point of view of being left behind... or you can appreciate the fact that there's a protecting wall there, which whatever happens upstream, means you can continue to enjoy Gnome 2 until 3.2 is there with MGSE and MATE and X11 works the way it should. AND.. you can jump that wall if you desire to do so.
This.

I run LMDE on my two most important systems right now. One of these is my file server, and I rarely update that at all because the most important thing for me is that it just works every day. That machine is a perfect candidate for updating via the LMDE update packs only (although I actually haven't changed its sources to that yet, since it's been running LMDE for much longer than the update packs have been around). My main work machine is also running LMDE, but for it I want the latest software (yes, I jumped on the GNOME Shell bandwagon and installed it from Experimental). So on this machine I am now tracking Unstable (I was tracking Testing until I installed GNOME 3.2), and I update it practically every day.

My point is: LMDE gives you an additional way to apply system and software updates in tested, coherent packs rather than tracking any of Debian's rolling repos. But if that's not what you want, you don't have to do it - just track the Debian repos instead. The Mint devs haven't taken anything away from you; on the contrary, they've given you another option that many people prefer and no other Debian-based distro has.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by Davarish »

I cannot understand this really...risking everything by changing the repos and demintifing my distro is not an option to me. Many people came here and said that "if you want you can always change to repos and get updates". But this is not the point. We want a stable and tested system. Changing the repos will not give us a stable and tested system. Staying without updates at all for another 3 months is not the solution either. Why? Because the latest stable editions of many main programs that we all use are more stable. They fixed many bug that we still have. I am not even talking about security. So if many of you like the way LMDE works right now, cause you don't want any updates because you use it on a server or whatever we don't care. Even if we had updates you could just not update. You people who like the way LMDE works right now because you changed the repos and use testing or sid, we also don't care about it because this has nothing to do with LMDE. We people who installed LMDE because of the "rolling release" advertising, expected certain things that are not getting. We are the dissapointed and we are the ones who asked for some official info here. We care only about the "latest" repos and only about the default options. If we wanted something else we would have chosen some other distro and that is the end of it.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by JeffShepherd »

Davarish wrote:We people who installed LMDE because of the "rolling release" advertising, expected certain things that are not getting. We are the dissapointed and we are the ones who asked for some official info here. We care only about the "latest" repos and only about the default options. If we wanted something else we would have chosen some other distro and that is the end of it.
Davarish,

Can you please stop talking for everyone? I am not at all dissapointed with LMDE, the update policy or the Mint team. I would rather Clem was busy working on updates than spending time answering demands for information.

If you don't like the update policy of the "latest" repo then you can change to "incoming" or Debian Testing, the choice is yours but keeping on at Clem wont make updates appear any faster.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by odo5435 »

JeffShepherd wrote:If you don't like the update policy of the "latest" repo then you can change to "incoming" or Debian Testing, the choice is yours but keeping on at Clem wont make updates appear any faster.
+1

Really @Davarish, it's easily fixed. There are several ways of running LMDE. If you don't like one, change your repo's to another that provides more frequent but less tested updates.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by Davarish »

It is like buying a car that the manufacturer says top speed is 200 km/hr and you then test it and you get maximum 80km/hr. I don't care if you are ok with that. Your opinion matters nothing to me. I expect 200 km/hr. If not, I expect some answers from the manufacturer. Mint says rolling release and one Update Pack per month. I, and many more (who already wrote it here) installed LMDE just because of that. I don't care if you are not one of us. I, and many other are the "official" users with the "official" expectations and that's it!
To clear things up, I am not demanding anything here since I didn't pay anything for LMDE. I believe I am talking sane, using arguments. The concreteness of this whole thread is very clear. If you feel like I am not expressing your opinion there is no need to answer here. Here we do some other kind of conversation. When I say all I mean all of the users that installed this LMDE thing and expected what Clem promised with monthly updates. There are more than many besides me who did came here and did say they are part of this category and many many more that never bothered to answer here. When I say all I am refering to the "official" users. I can't make it clearer than that. Even if we "official" are 10 people and the rest are 10000 people, we still are the "official"
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by gsmanners »

Davarish wrote:It is like buying a car... I am not demanding anything here since I didn't pay anything for LMDE.
You sound a little confused to me. You sure you don't need to rethink this?
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by tompravi »

I think that debian is the distro that is interesting for the stability. That's why the new releases are not so often as other distros. They respect the linux users. That's why I respect Debian.
I'm fun of Debian. I use it for many years.
I have installed the last release and everything is fine.
But I use more often LinuxMint and specially LinuxMintDebian
I like the improvements of Linux desktops too. That's we I've installed other distros on my computer.
I trust a lot Debian Linux. And I trust Linux Mint and LinuxMintDebian too. (That's why I use the last two.)

I think LinuxMint_Debian stability is between the stability of the Debian releases. I think LinuxMint_Debian tries to minimize the unstability of debian testing.
It's not the Debian testing one.
It's not the Debian sid one.
It's a rolling distro that respects the debian rules and the debian users.
I don't need a brand new distro that I don't trust. We have seen many distros of this kind. I'm interesting about trust because I'm interesting for the improvement of Linux as daily OS.
If the users don't trust the OS they use, this OS will die.
The effort of LinuxMint developers is very impressive and very honorary for them.
As a debian user I feel the need to thank them.
Long life to Debian !
Long life to Linux Mint !
Long life to Linux Mint Debian !

PS. I don't like to speak for LinuxMintDebian and Debian like to be cars. They are operating systems. But I'll use this parallelism just for Davaris.
Maybe they are old car. Maybe they are not the last edition of the car model I like. Maybe they has not all these fancy extras. But they are very stables (or only stables) cars with a huge community witch is very hospitable. And these are the most important.

Please, excuse me for my english. My native language is Greek
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by yaye »

Davarish wrote: We want a stable and tested system. Changing the repos will not give us a stable and tested system.
If you want a stable and tested system, you should not use Linux Mint Debian Edition without changing the repo to Latest, since it is based on Debian Testing not tested (Stable), and it was stated that the users can expect breakages. As has been pointed out before, you cannot eat your cake and have it too.

Davarish, is English your native language? As a native English speaker, some of your statements come across to me as demanding.

Clem, I think you've been very gracious in taking the time to address the concerns of some of the users. Thanks for all that you and the other developers have done to make more options (choice) available to us.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by wormtown »

I have posted about this in other threads, but since this seems the main one regarding this issue:

I am not particularly concerned about the pace of updates.

I am VERY concerned about the lack of communication.

It is one thing to advertise monthly updates and miss them because things are "not ready" or other priorities take precedence for a small development team.

It is another to not clearly and very prominently communicate the variance from advertised practice. I am saddened by this. It is not what I expected from the LM team.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by Andrew33 »

@Davarish:

Dude....you need to take a serious chill pill......you can't just come in here and start making demands about what you expect from something. As yaye stated, Linux Mint Debian is a distro known for breakages, true we're the ones who test it once it comes out, but you've got to show some respect for the devs that spend countless hours making and configuring these OS's.....not only hours, but days and weeks of testing to make sure everything will work like they expect it to......and they have much higher standards than we do, they won't release a OS or upgrade/update until they feel it's ready to go out into the public. The devs put a lot of hark work into these, on top of their own personal lives and/or jobs/ families. So......before you go spewing out more expectations on here, make sure your brain is engaged first.....in other words, "Think Before You Speak"......and this goes for anyone else who decides to blast the devs or any other part of the LM Team for not getting things out quick enough......cheers


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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by wormtown »

and this goes for anyone else who decides to blast the devs or any other part of the LM Team for not getting things out quick enough
I want to be very clear about this.
I am not blasting devs for the pace, or not meeting stated targets.

I am blasting them for doing this without communication. It shows a lack of respect for the common user who would like to trust what they read as the advertised practice of the distribution.

Debian stable is very clear about this: a new release will made when it is ready, and don't ask us when that will be. Fine. That's the stated policy, so no questions allowed.

Ubuntu releases on time like clockwork and fixes bugs later. They never claimed to be bug-free. Just showstopper free.

LMDE has advertised monthly update packs. Now nothing, and only reports buried posts deep in fora. There should either be a separate blog post about this or a sticky in the relevant subform. Or even better a note sent out via update manager if this is even possible. If this is an ongoing issue with update packs, we the users need to be kept informed as to what the new policy will be so as to be able to make an informed decision about whether this meets our goals or if it's time to move on.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by monkeyboy »

These kinds of posts never end as long as people respond to them. Enjoy
If you don't like it, make something better
If you can't make something better, adapt
If you can't do either ball your panties up and cry.

Complaining is like masticating most anyone can do it.
However doing it in public is really hardcore.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Post by yaye »

monkeyboy wrote:These kinds of posts never end as long as people respond to them. Enjoy
I was thinking the same thing. I hope Clem and the devs don't waste anymore time responding. I won't.
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