Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

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xenopeek
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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by xenopeek » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:37 am

Ikey stopped working on LMDE at the beginning of 2011, 4 years before LMDE 2. LMDE switched to a semi-rolling release during 2011 using update packs. LMDE 2 was released early 2015 and was based on Debian stable.

I can understand people want LMDE 3. But Debian 9 has support till mid 2020 with the Debian LTS team providing another 2 years of support. Work on Linux Mint's components to make them ready for Ubuntu 18.04 and Debian 9 now goes hand in hand AFAIK (see https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3494).
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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by Pepi » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:18 pm

xenopeek wrote:Ikey stopped working on LMDE at the beginning of 2011, 4 years before LMDE 2. LMDE switched to a semi-rolling release during 2011 using update packs. LMDE 2 was released early 2015 and was based on Debian stable.

I can understand people want LMDE 3. But Debian 9 has support till mid 2020 with the Debian LTS team providing another 2 years of support. Work on Linux Mint's components to make them ready for Ubuntu 18.04 and Debian 9 now goes hand in hand AFAIK (see https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3494).
I'm a REAL lover of LMDE2 but I will say that 18.3 is just as good IMHO. I've switched over to 18.3 on all my computers and I don't regret it at all. 8)

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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by Hansl » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:17 am

The “rolling release approach” based on a fairly pure Debian Testing as a good compromise between stability and cutting edge was the main incentive for me to start using LMDE.  And I don't quite like Ubuntu, but I do like the plain productivity Mate desktop.  Over the years I have noticed LMDE being a bit neglected with updates, falling back to Stable and now to Oldstable — which is now really a pain!  I wasn't aware of a main dev leaving but it explains a lot.

This sounds a bit like a sinking ship I should leave, the sooner the better? To pure Debian Testing, or do a big leap to Arch?  Then being a relative Linux novice, I was glad with LMDE bringing a complete usable desktop installation.  Now I think I would be able to start with one of those bare systems, installing all I need by myself. I just don't want to spend the time… plus, I've since led several relatives, colleagues and acquaintances from XP to LMDE, all rather computer laypersons — what do I tell them now?

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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by xenopeek » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:06 am

Hansl wrote:what do I tell them now?
I don't get why suddenly LMDE is a problem for you.
  • LMDE 1 (let's call it that for clarity) reached end of life 2 years ago and had been a semi-rolling release before that.
  • LMDE 2 is stable and secure and continues to get updates till mid this year with another 2 years of updates from Debian LTS.
  • LMDE 3 is in the works and set for release this quarter. It will be based on Debian 9 (currently stable) and get updates at least till mid 2020 and from Debian LTS team another 2 more years.
If you want a stable and secure system, that's low maintenance, LMDE 3 is a good fit. Expectation is for an upgrade path from LMDE 2 to 3 to be available (upgrade without needing to reinstall).
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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by sdibaja » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:00 am

xenopeek wrote:
Hansl wrote:what do I tell them now?
I don't get why suddenly LMDE is a problem for you.
  • LMDE 1 (let's call it that for clarity) reached end of life 2 years ago and had been a semi-rolling release before that.
  • LMDE 2 is stable and secure and continues to get updates till mid this year with another 2 years of updates from Debian LTS.
  • LMDE 3 is in the works and set for release this quarter. It will be based on Debian 9 (currently stable) and get updates at least till mid 2020 and from Debian LTS team another 2 more years.
If you want a stable and secure system, that's low maintenance, LMDE 3 is a good fit. Expectation is for an upgrade path from LMDE 2 to 3 to be available (upgrade without needing to reinstall).
I do look forward to LMDE 3. I have not seen much detail of what it will be.
xenopeek is it true that it will be Cinnamon only?
===
Everyone has their own personal tastes and goals.
I was a long time fan of Ubuntu with Gnome 2. When we lost Gnome 2 and Mate was still very funky I first went to Solus and then Pinguy, because of Gnome 2. Later Mint started using Mate, and when it matured I moved, and then on to LMDE Mate.

I like to play around with new things, but I need something that is not buggy for work. I don't recommend Testing for people for most people, especially those who just need their computer to work without the constant looming prospect of loosing features, or forced reinstall because of badly failed "updates".
When Mint broke Mate last May I started looking around for another distro that was truly Stable.
I found that in Debian Stretch Mate.

I know that Clem does not recommend Stretch. He says that is because Mate 1.16 is not the very latest version. In reality, there is nothing in 1.18 that I can find that is an enhancement... it is still in the testing stage, and bugs are being ironed out. It is fun to play with and see it evolve, but that is a hobby thing. Run Debian Buster (testing) and see.

I use my computers for work. I need to depend on them. That is why I was using LMDE, but it became unstable. I don't believe the current philosophy of Mint considers Stability to be a high priority. That's fine, but not for me.

Mint does have a pretty good installer, it is kinda easy for a noob. That is great. Debian installer is more complex, not so easy, but much more powerful. That is important for more complex multi drive and multi OS machines.
I maintained a list of apps and tweaks for a new LMDE Mate install... it got lengthy. My similar list of tasks for a fresh Debian Mate install is actually much shorter... and the end result is less clutter and faster.

If for some reason Stretch does not support some bleeding edge hardware it is a simple matter to use those specific newer packages kernels from the Testing or Unstable repos. Personally, I have not needed them on any of the machines I maintain. Stretch just works.

I don't intend to diminish Mint or LMDE, but there are many unknowns.
Peter

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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by Hansl » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:33 am

xenopeek, LMDE2 Mate is a quite stable system and I do like it. Kudos to all those who made it!  I have it installed and am thus (partially) responsible for it on about thirteen machines.

My main problem is that it is now rather outdated, being still based on oldstable Jessie, and this really does cause now problems. Because, like written above, many projects have now dropped support for Jessie, new hardware likewise.  And I'm getting afraid its dragging on and on… I hope you're right with “this quarter” and it's not being abandoned.

Some of those 13 machines are older and for simple use, no problem yet.  Some are newer and for power use with lots of additional software (CAD, IDEs, tools, Windows in vbox…).  I have to pull the kernel and various drivers from backports to have them work at all (WLAN!). 

• Three weeks ago, I upgraded one to an AMD RX550 graphics — unusable, needs at least Stretch!  I've now bought another Nvidia; the brand new RX550 is up for sale (anyone interested here?)
• On this machine here, ThinkPad T450s, the graphics hw acceleration did not work “out of the box”, took me quite some time to get it running.
• The newest pain: on of my sons is leaving for an semester abroad and I urgently want a working video conference with them, one using Win7 (and LMDE in vbox), the other Arch, me LMDE2 — I cannot install anymore qtox as a package or build it, needs Stretch.  Same for ring.cx.  (After three long evenings experimenting we settled now for Jitsi with xmpp accounts.  But my other netbook is too weak for Jitsi.)

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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by Hansl » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:45 am

sdibaja, those are quite my feelings, too!  I also have a quite long list.  I just spent many hours during the holidays to set up a fresh machine so I feel at home again with it like before… and then it must work.  I do not want to repeat this again in April for LMDE3, so I do hope the will be an usable upgrade path. (And the other 12 machines?  Uhh… )

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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by xenopeek » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:45 pm

sdibaja wrote:xenopeek is it true that it will be Cinnamon only?
Yes, that was shared earlier on the blog. You can still install KDE, MATE, Xfce or other DEs and WMs as you please but there will only be a LMDE 3 ISO with Cinnamon. Linux Mint might continue to have MATE packages in its LMDE repository, considering that Debian 9 has an older and frozen MATE release. It's something Clem will get back to once we're closer to a LMDE 3 release if and how that could be done.
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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by Hansl » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:32 am

From http://kroah.com/log/blog/2018/01/06/meltdown-status/ :
If you rely on any other kernel tree other than 4.4, 4.9, or 4.14 right now, and you do not have a distribution supporting you, you are out of luck. The lack of patches to resolve the Meltdown problem is so minor compared to the hundreds of other known exploits and bugs that your kernel version currently contains. You need to worry about that more than anything else at this moment, and get your systems up to date first.

Also, go yell at the people who forced you to run an obsoleted and insecure kernel version, they are the ones that need to learn that doing so is a totally reckless act.
4.9 can be installed from jessie-backports, but plain LMDE2 still runs 3.16…

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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by Fred Barclay » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:21 pm

Hansl wrote:From http://kroah.com/log/blog/2018/01/06/meltdown-status/ :
If you rely on any other kernel tree other than 4.4, 4.9, or 4.14 right now, and you do not have a distribution supporting you, you are out of luck. The lack of patches to resolve the Meltdown problem is so minor compared to the hundreds of other known exploits and bugs that your kernel version currently contains. You need to worry about that more than anything else at this moment, and get your systems up to date first.

Also, go yell at the people who forced you to run an obsoleted and insecure kernel version, they are the ones that need to learn that doing so is a totally reckless act.
4.9 can be installed from jessie-backports, but plain LMDE2 still runs 3.16…
The critical part of that quote is the and you do not have a distribution supporting you bit. ;) The Debian oldstable team still supports the 3.16 kernel, so fixes should be pushed out to Debian 8, and LMDE 2, soon.
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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by sdibaja » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:13 pm

the 3.16 kernel was patched today
https://www.kernel.org/
https://cdn.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel ... og-3.16.53
when will Mint provide it?
Peter

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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by xenopeek » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:20 pm

When Debian Jessie provides it.
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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by Harfud » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:45 am

How close is LMDE3, I know during Q1 but is it looking to be sooner or later ?

Many thanks.

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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by xenopeek » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:23 pm

I have no news on that.
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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by Lucap » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:13 am

@ xenopeek

Has testing ever been considered as the base of LMDE or is that too much work?

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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by xenopeek » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:42 am

LMDE 1 used Debian testing as a base. LMDE 2 switched to Debian stable. Both LMDE and Linux Mint main edition are thus based long-term supported package bases.
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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by Lucap » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:56 am

I didn't consider the issue of security updates so that makes stable essential.

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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by Penn » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:01 pm

Lucap wrote:I didn't consider the issue of security updates so that makes stable essential.
On different machines, I run LMDE2 (primary machine) and Stretch. I can't recall any security updates to Stretch that didn't also occur on LMDE 2. Jessie still receives security updates and, thus, so does LMDE 2.

I would still have liked to have seen LMDE 3 released in what I consider a time appropriate implementation, but that ship has sailed. Still looking at the possibility (probability?) that I will install Stretch on the primary computer due to the nearly year long gap.

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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by Fred Barclay » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:55 pm

Penn wrote:I would still have liked to have seen LMDE 3 released in what I consider a time appropriate implementation, but that ship has sailed.
Me too. :(
I ended up moving to Arch.
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Re: Linux Mint Debian Edition 3

Post by sdibaja » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:10 pm

Debian is worth the effort, honestly
Peter

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