Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

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axisofevil
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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by axisofevil » Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:54 am

In view of the horrendous implications in updating from LMDE1 to LMDE2 and the likely death of my system:-

Would I do better to take a backup of all my data, copy all my important config data to a USB stick and just do a LMDE2 install over my / directory?
(followed by the install of a large number of packages, manually).
Fortunately I have a separate /home directory.

For me - important files to save are some of /usr/local, /etc
Definitely all crontab files and /etc/passwd, /etc/groups (for UID/GID) info.
/etc/fstab is useful, as is /etc/hosts

Bear in mind that the Mint team (for all their achievements) have never undertaken a user controlled upgrade.
Just having nvidia drivers in my kernel has caused problems in the past.

If I do this, will anything bad happen to me? :?

woodsman
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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by woodsman » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:28 pm

On one of my test systems the Notifier icon never changes. I always have to perform a manual refresh. Is there a config option I am unaware?

On another note, today I tried updating an LMDE 1 system to LMDE 2. Some new dependency breakages. I did not take detailed notes, but openjdk was part of the problem. I was unable to complete the update.

While I appreciate wanting to run LMDE 2, I hope others will continue testing the update process from scratch. :)

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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by woodsman » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:37 pm

copy all my important config data
While a fresh install seems to reduce nail-biting, any customizing gets lost unless the user is intimately familiar with all modified files. The update process is (horribly) interactive for folks who have tweaked their systems. Here is a short list I wrote, but I have not updated in a while:

keyboard
keymap

/etc/issue
/etc/issue.net
restarting services dialog
/etc/skel/.mozilla/firefox/.../prefs.js
/etc/grub.d/10_linux
modified grub.cfg
/etc/sysctl.conf
/etc/logrotate.d/cups-daemon
/etc/plymouth/plymouthd.conf
/etc/modprobe.d/fbdev-blacklist.conf
/etc/systemd/logind.conf
/etc/pam.d/login
/etc/xdg/autostart/nm-applet.desktop
/etc/pam.d/sshd
/etc/mdm/mdm.conf
/etc/skel/.config/caja/desktop-metadata
/etc/linuxmint/info
/etc/logrotate.d/unattended-upgrades

I use separate /home and /usr/local directories, yet even outside that, my short list here indicates how much would get clobbered with a fresh install.

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xfrank
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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by xfrank » Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:00 pm

woodsman wrote:
copy all my important config data
While a fresh install seems to reduce nail-biting, any customizing gets lost unless the user is intimately familiar with all modified files. The update process is (horribly) interactive for folks who have tweaked their systems.
This is the key point. All of us who have an old, heavily tweaked, LMDE installation, will have troubles and pain to keep or redo all the tweaks/customizations. I forgot most of the modifications I did since 2012. :shock:
Linux everywhere. Active Distros in my many computers: LM17.3 (Cinnamon, Xfce); LM18.1 (Cinnamon,Xfce); LMDE 2 (Mate), MXLinux (Xfce), Debian 9 (Xfce).

woodsman
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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by woodsman » Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:33 pm

This is the key point.
Yes, that is why I started this thread. :) My latest attempts at performing an update with an existing LMDE 1 system is horrible. I spent a few hours yesterday trying to unwind the mess, all to no avail. Part of the problem is apt is updated in Jessie, but vim and yelp refuse to update. I suspect we might not see anything from the Mint developers until after Jessie is officially released. I don't pretend to be a Debian guru, not even close, but yesterday's attempt to update was frustrating. At least up to this point a full update was possible, albeit in several steps.
I forgot most of the modifications I did since 2012.
Likely all LMDE 1 users will be similarly affected. :) Ignoring /home and /usr/local, I suppose we could compare a fresh LMDE 2 install to an existing LMDE 1 system and diff at least /etc.

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killer de bug
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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by killer de bug » Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:13 pm

xfrank wrote: This is the key point. All of us who have an old, heavily tweaked, LMDE installation, will have troubles and pain to keep or redo all the tweaks/customizations. I forgot most of the modifications I did since 2012. :shock:
Upgrading will protect 99% of your tweaks :wink:
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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by woodsman » Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:51 pm

Upgrading will protect 99% of your tweaks
I agree. I am not concerned with preserving my modifications, although to preserve those changes requires full interaction. My focus is mostly how many hoops users will have to jump through to update. Until yesterday I have been able to update just fine. Whenever finally released, I expect the final instructions to work, but there still will be bugs. I still see blank tooltips in MATE, the Update Notifier never auto-refreshes after logging in, and there are those annoying beeps not present in LMDE 1. Nothing destructive but still bugs.

I have one test system that I updated several weeks ago. The system seems stable other than the Update Notifier not refreshing automatically, beeps, and blank tooltips. My other test system is where I regularly test updating from scratch. That is the system that failed to update yesterday.

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killer de bug
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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by killer de bug » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:32 pm

I think we have now understood that yesterday you were not able to update your system. You said this 10 times in your last 3 posts.

Please note that the upgrade path has not been released by the team and therefore it is not supposed to work yet. Nothing abnormal yet. Testing is moving, a library may have been removed due to a bug. Let people work and this will be solved. :wink:
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woodsman
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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by woodsman » Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:21 pm

You said this 10 times in your last 3 posts.
Remember that everybody here is trying to help one another. I was being conversational. You get rather pedantic at times, killer. Let sleeping dogs lie. :)

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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by woodsman » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:03 pm

The blank tooltips bug was some kind of updated theme conflict. Choosing a new theme resolved the problem.

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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by Monsta » Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:20 am

woodsman wrote:Would somebody who has updated to LMDE 2 and is using daily confirm whether the Update Notifier is working? Thanks.
Works fine here.
After 30 minutes (as set in the preferences) it refreshes the package index and shows me the usual 'i' icon.

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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by Monsta » Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:23 am

woodsman wrote:I did not take detailed notes, but openjdk was part of the problem. I was unable to complete the update.
woodsman wrote:I spent a few hours yesterday trying to unwind the mess, all to no avail. Part of the problem is apt is updated in Jessie, but vim and yelp refuse to update.
No apt-get output posted -> no developers trying to work on the issue -> no fixes.

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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by Monsta » Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:24 am

woodsman wrote:The blank tooltips bug was some kind of updated theme conflict. Choosing a new theme resolved the problem.
What are the names of these themes?

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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by woodsman » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:54 pm

Works fine here.
After 30 minutes (as set in the preferences) it refreshes the package index and shows me the usual 'i' icon.
Okay.

I am using the same settings as LMDE 1. Seems now the preference acts as a timeout rather than an interval. In LMDE 1 the Notifier changed icon status immediately after loading the app, which is part of autostart. Seems now that something in the code was changed to not update immediately but only after the preferences timeout. In LMDE 1 I had the Notifier set to update once daily. Checking for updates every 30 minutes is overkill. I'll tinker some and see what happens.
No apt-get output posted -> no developers trying to work on the issue -> no fixes.
Pedantics. :) There are only 24 hours in the day. I'll post something --- when I get the chance.
What are the names of these themes?
I was using Mint-X with customizations. Some snooping and tinkering yesterday revealed that a dconf setting (org/mate/desktop/interface/gtk-colors-scheme) was causing the bug. The act of resetting the theme deleted that one problematic dconf setting and the tooltips are okay again.

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WinterTroubles
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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by WinterTroubles » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:13 pm

woodsman wrote:
Works fine here.
After 30 minutes (as set in the preferences) it refreshes the package index and shows me the usual 'i' icon.
Okay.

I am using the same settings as LMDE 1. Seems now the preference acts as a timeout rather than an interval. In LMDE 1 the Notifier changed icon status immediately after loading the app, which is part of autostart. Seems now that something in the code was changed to not update immediately but only after the preferences timeout. In LMDE 1 I had the Notifier set to update once daily. Checking for updates every 30 minutes is overkill. I'll tinker some and see what happens.
I don't use LMDE, however the behaviour of Mint Update in Mint 17.x was changed and I would guess that the same is also true of LMDE 2.. This thread explains the changes in 17.x and may be of interest http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.p ... 98#p999698

Regards
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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by woodsman » Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:40 pm

This thread explains the changes in 17.x and may be of interest
Yes that explains much. Thank you. Seems the Updater settings have changed from an interval focus to a timeout focus.

Before the design change the Updater always performed an apt-get update at launch and then checked again at the specified interval. Under the previous design many users found the default period excessive and changed to a daily check. Because an apt-get update was always performed at launch, users who regularly powered down their system always saw an update notification the next time they booted their system. Setting the period to daily stopped the excessive checking but there always was at least one check per session. As users who power down often never left their computers on longer than the daily interval, this created an illusion of how the Updater was working.

Now the Updater checks for updates when the specified period is greater than the system uptime and no longer performs an apt-get update upon launch. Users who do not keep their computers on for long periods probably will find the new default of 30 minutes sufficient for most sessions, but if they power down sooner than 30 minutes then they never see a notification.

I help some people who never use their computers for several hours, let alone leave powered on 24/7. The new 30 minute timeout likely will work for them --- most of the time, but sometimes they just check email and power down. On those days they would not see update notifications.

One solution would be leaving the period at daily but using rc.local to create the illusion of the Updater working the same as the previous design:

Code: Select all

echo "apt-get update" | at now + 5 min &>/dev/null
For people with older hardware and slower boot rates, the 5 minute delay should work okay.

The new question is whether under the new design the specified period repeats when a user leaves a computer on several hours. Once uptime is greater than the configured default 30 minutes, does the new Updater recheck every 30 minutes thereafter?

If yes, then that would still be excessive for users who have limited bandwidth, bandwidth caps, or older hardware where the checks might impact desktop usage. In that case, leaving the timeout to daily and using rc.local might be better.

In one of the other threads somebody mentioned that a check box option to force an apt-get update upon launch would be a good compromise between the two designs. Makes sense to me.

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WinterTroubles
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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by WinterTroubles » Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:53 pm

woodsman wrote: Yes that explains much. Thank you.
You're welcome :)
In one of the other threads somebody mentioned that a check box option to force an apt-get update upon launch would be a good compromise between the two designs. Makes sense to me.
I have to say I agree, that does seem like a good compromise that would allow optimising for either usual long uptime or usual short uptime.

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woodsman
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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by woodsman » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:51 pm

New bugs when updating:

* When booting: /init: 401: /init: touch; not found

* Several update-rc.d warnings: start and stop actions are no longer supported: falling back to defaults

* --noclear in inittab does not work; need to create /etc/systemd/system/getty@tty1.service.d/noclear.conf:
[Service]
TTYVTDisallocate=no

axisofevil
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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by axisofevil » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:32 am

Is there any news on topic "Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2"?

Emilien du Roy
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Re: Updating existing LMDE 1 Systems to LMDE 2

Post by Emilien du Roy » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:58 am

I thought that LMDE was a rolling distribution and so that LMDE 1 should upgrade smoothly to LMDE 2. Apparently it is not the case as LMDE 2 is not basically designed to do so. What is the advantage of LMDE over normal LinuxMint if I have to reinstall from scratch LMDE 2 over LMDE 1 and next time LMDE 3 over LMDE 2 ?

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