Why not base LMDE on Devuan?

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LMDE 2 support ends on 1-1-2019

Should LMDE switch to being based on Devuan, or stay with Debian?

Switch to Devuan
9
35%
Stay with Debian
17
65%
 
Total votes: 26

JosephM
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Re: Why not base LMDE on Devuan?

Post by JosephM » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:47 am

sdibaja wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:28 pm
"Mate is a shady character" funny
truth is that Ubuntu butchered their spin, then Mint compounded it.
it is only the Ubuntu and Mint versions that are borked.
I'm curious what you feel other distros do better with the Mate version? I've not really heard that argument before.

As to the original question "Why not base LMDE on Devuan", a better question would be why would we? The only argument I have ever seen is systemd. The entire reason LMDE exists is in case something bizarre happens with Ubuntu. It gives us a fallback we are at least somewhat prepared for. Debian is not going anywhere. Not sure Devuan has that same level of dependence.
When I give opinions, they are my own. Not necessarily those of any other Linux Mint developer or the Linux Mint project as a whole.

zorzi
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Re: Why not base LMDE on Devuan?

Post by zorzi » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:54 am

Isn't LMDE already based on SystemV ?
Desktop: HP Pavilion a6435 (Athlon64 2x 2,6Ghz, Radeon R7-240, Ram 4 Go, HD 500 Go) / MX Linux 17
Laptop: Packard-Bell EasyNote G1320 (Celeron 1,3 Ghz, ATI Mobility Radeon 9100 IGP, Ram 1,2 Go, HD 40 Go) / Debian Stretch

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steveo314
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Re: Why not base LMDE on Devuan?

Post by steveo314 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:56 pm

zorzi wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:54 am
Isn't LMDE already based on SystemV ?
systemd?
debian or bust

zorzi
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Re: Why not base LMDE on Devuan?

Post by zorzi » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:46 am

systemd?
Well, I'm not sure anymore. I thought LMDE2 was SystemV equipped.
Desktop: HP Pavilion a6435 (Athlon64 2x 2,6Ghz, Radeon R7-240, Ram 4 Go, HD 500 Go) / MX Linux 17
Laptop: Packard-Bell EasyNote G1320 (Celeron 1,3 Ghz, ATI Mobility Radeon 9100 IGP, Ram 1,2 Go, HD 40 Go) / Debian Stretch

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steveo314
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Re: Why not base LMDE on Devuan?

Post by steveo314 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:57 pm

zorzi wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:46 am
systemd?
Well, I'm not sure anymore. I thought LMDE2 was SystemV equipped.
I had to double check what you were referring to. LMDE 2 is sysvinit. LMDE 3 may switch over to systemd. i need to check what i have on my migrated LMDE install. Went from Betsy to Cindy.
If you use plain Debian, it switched from sysvinit to systemd when they went from Wheezy to Jessie.

On a side note, Distrowatch states that Clem has used systemd and SysV since conception in 2006. I find that odd since systemd started in 2010 and Fedora was the first to really start using it 2011. Every other followed 2 or 3 years laters. Ubuntu used Upstart until 13.04
debian or bust

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Re: Why not base LMDE on Devuan?

Post by mediclaser » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:59 pm

Schultz wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:45 am
I know this has already been discussed (I remember seeing one thread about it). I think the devs should consider basing LMDE on Devuan. One reason mentioned in the past why that was not a good idea was that Devuan had not yet "matured" (can't remember if that was the exact word used) as a viable OS. I don't think that now at the present that statement applies anymore.

Anyway, I'm curious what current users of LMDE think. Should it be based on Devuan, or stay with Debian?
When the Mint team decided to drop KDE from future releases, I think I have read a related statement that LMDE is being kept as a fall back distro in case the Ubuntu base ceases to exist. The fact that Devuan is just based on Debian (like Ubuntu) is enough clue the Mint team would never make it as base for LMDE. Should the Mint team decides to make an entirely new distro that is based on Devuan, now that's another story. The team would probably name it LMDV?
Having a Linux operating system is just like driving a car -- you learn something new everyday.

half-word
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Re: Why not base LMDE on Devuan?

Post by half-word » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:19 pm

I have actually converted my LMDE2 to Devuan 8)

Changed repos from LMDE's Debian ones to Devuan Jessie repos and done dist-upgrade. It went smooth and the system works fine (not that the original LMDE2 or Debian Jessie make a great desktop nowadays!)

The only things showing some problems are probably due to DBus; namely, the Indicator plugin on my desktop shows nothing, the OSD messages are shown more like tooltips, and closing my laptop lid does nothing although the Power manager was (and apparently still is) configured to bring it to standby when closed. Everything else works fine, including other power management functions, and I guess it wouldn't be much of a problem to tweak the unresponsive lid if I take the effort.

I must add this is actually not a "real" LMDE2 but an upgrade from LMDE1 - my primary desktop was and still is Xfce, which unfortunately got unsupported in LMDE2. When I look at it this way, probably this is more a Debian installation now which got upgraded to Devuan. Anyhow, it works quite nice.

I don't know how other desktop environments are tied to systemd, but I'd wholeheartedly recommend a future LMDE to be based on Devuan. I guess it would be the ONLY one I'd continue to use!

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BG405
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Re: Why not base LMDE on Devuan?

Post by BG405 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:51 pm

If it were up to me I'd stick with Debian for LMDE.

If Ubuntu does ever cease to be a viable base for the main Mint distros, this is the time when other bases (such as Devuan) could be considered; otherwise it may be a lot of work for the Mint Devs to switch LMDE over. It is, after all, seen as a fallback option. We wouldn't want to risk breaking that, IMHO.
Dell Inspiron 1525 - LM17.3 CE 64-------------------Acer D255E 2GB - Manjaro KDE, LM17.3 KDE 32
Toshiba NB305 - Manjaro KDE------------------------K7S5A AMD 1.2GHz - LM17.3 Xfce 32 & WinXP-Pro
Acer Aspire E11 ES1-111M - LM18.2 KDE 64 ----Dell PII 350 64MB - Puppy 4.3 & Win98-SE

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sdibaja
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Re: Why not base LMDE on Devuan?

Post by sdibaja » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:02 pm

My thoughts... LMDE is not going to change. Just not gonna happen. LMDE 3 will be different, but it will be Debian Stretch based, well probably some Buster too... But it will be systemd.

If you want to be systemd free, go with a group that has more experience than Duvian. Stretch based from the beginning. Already using the gadgets you want, and mature. MX17.

I use MX along side Debian on several machines now... As a user I can't detect a single thing that is different than with systemd. so I have no dog in this fight.
Peter
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einpoklum
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Re: Why not base LMDE on Devuan?

Post by einpoklum » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:18 pm

I have enjoyed using Mint so far; but I'm worried about the adoption of systemd, its inherent and incidental problems, and its continued encroachment into more and more of a system's functionality. So - I've decided I should put my PC where my mouth is and switch to a non-systemd-based distribution. Unfortunately, Mint is not that kind of distro... yet, if LMDE were to be based on Devuan, it would be just what I wanted.

Since Devuan and Debian are really very close - except of course to what systemd necessitates, and the intention is to avoid divergence between them, I believe it the switch is:
  • Safe
  • Will not drive users away (especially if the name doesn't change, i.e. it's still a "Debian edition")
  • Not much more / not at all more effort to maintain than official Debian
So, I vote in favor of Devuan.

I also believe that, the future, Devuan will be merged back and Debian will drop systemd as a necessary default - justifying the decision in hindsight even further. Also, if more distributions "recognized" Devuan as the more appropriate and upstanding basis, that future I described will arrive earlier.

KBD47
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Re: Why not base LMDE on Devuan?

Post by KBD47 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:56 pm

einpoklum wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:18 pm
I also believe that, the future, Devuan will be merged back and Debian will drop systemd as a necessary default - justifying the decision in hindsight even further. Also, if more distributions "recognized" Devuan as the more appropriate and upstanding basis, that future I described will arrive earlier.
I admire your idealism, as I also have concerns about systemd, but I think you underestimate just what a spreading cancer systemd has become. It's tentacles are deep into Linux OS's and it will soon be at the point you can't remove it without seriously breaking Linux operating systems. Redhat-Fedora are married to systemd, as is Ubuntu-Debian, these are the bulk of Linux users. Systemd should have been killed in its infancy, but we are past the point of return now. If Ubuntu/Canonical had stayed with Upstart, if Debian had not caved so quickly, things might be different. Nevertheless, I hope Devuan prevails against the headwinds. Yet I understand why Mint will likely never leave systemd because upstream is married to it.

half-word
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Re: Why not base LMDE on Devuan?

Post by half-word » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:09 pm

One more thing I'd like to... I really hate systemd, both on "idealistic" and practical purposes. From the idealistic point of view, I don't like the departing away from Unix philosophy ("do one thing and do it well"). Monolithic systems are far from the Unix tradition.

However, there are more practical concerns, about security and stability implications of one big monolithic piece code governing most system functions. From my own standpoint I must say I've had bad experiences with systemd based Ubuntu desktop installations. I've had mysterious problems with losing sound or system ignoring requests to suspend, for no reason; I had no such issues before, and from what I've seen, I believe the most likely culprit are DBus quirks.

There is another problem, both practical and idealistical, namely about effect on other Unix-like systems, like BSD and Illumos; similar to what happened when switching from Hal to udev. Software becomes entangled with systemd to work, that creates great problems to make it work properly with non-Linux, non-systemd operating systems. If it becomes hard for Linux systems like Devuan to make certain pieces of software work, it's much more harder for non-Linux systems which are not supported at all by systemd components. I know many people don't use, know or care about non-Linux Unix-likes, but there are people like me who use them, love them, love Unix philosophy, and hate to see developments like this.

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sdibaja
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Re: Why not base LMDE on Devuan?

Post by sdibaja » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:19 pm

Ubuntu is problematic, testing and experimental combined ... it is expected.
Try both antiX and MX if you truly hate systemd.
I prefer Debian Stretch, more stable and many more resources (trusted resources)
Peter
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JosephM
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Re: Why not base LMDE on Devuan?

Post by JosephM » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:26 pm

The word systemd can't get brought up without all the same arguments being mentioned. None of them change the answer to the original question though. LMDE really only exists so Mint wouldn't be left high and dry if something bizarre suddenly happened to Ubuntu. It's a backup plan. It's just being a little prepared. With that purpose in mind, why would you base on something relatively new with a frankly uncertain future when you can use Debian?
When I give opinions, they are my own. Not necessarily those of any other Linux Mint developer or the Linux Mint project as a whole.

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