Dedicated LMDE team

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BPowell1999
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Dedicated LMDE team

Post by BPowell1999 »

Hi everyone;

I'm posting today because I want an open discussion - please let's not be Arch users and just have a communal discussion because I am serious about what I'm about to discuss.

Let me get right into my topic... I see a lot of potential in LMDE especially since V4 released. I installed V4 on launch day and I've been running it ever since - it's rock-solid stable and very similar to LMDE 19.3. However, as far as I know, there is only 1 small team that works on the entire Linux Mint project, including the Debian Edition.

With the direction that Ubuntu seems to be taking, I honestly believe that it would be worth the extra effort for Debian Stable to become the base for future versions of Linux Mint in the long run - as Ubuntu transitions to it's snap store and removes more & more packages from it's standard APT repositories, it will require more & more effort to maintain Mint's repositories to replace them and eventually that will surpass the effort required to maintain a Debian-based repo.

Additionally, Mint being based on Debian would mean that Ubuntu's bugs don't carry through. The Mint team would have greater control on what is & isn't on their distro, etc.

And, in fact, if this dedicated team did exist I'd be willing to be a part of it and I'm sure plenty of others would, too. I personally don't think I'm experienced enough with Linux in general to be a part of the team, but I'm always willing to learn and tackle challenges. Plus there are plenty of people out there who already posses the desire and knowledge to help LMDE reach it's true potentially.

Of course, I'm aware that this wouldn't be easy. LM would have to backport newer kernels, drivers library versions and more through their own repository (or perhaps base on Debian Testing instead of Stable?) but I do believe that it's possible. Especially if a similar point-based release system is used. For example, LMDE 5 could be based on Kernel 5.4 LTS & assosciated packages, 5.1 could upgrade the kernel & packages (if required), and so on.

What is everyone's opinion on thing's I've touched on today? Do you agree or disagree?
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Moonstone Man
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by Moonstone Man »

BPowell1999 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:58 pm ... as far as I know, there is only 1 small team that works on the entire Linux Mint project, including the Debian Edition.

... in fact, if this dedicated team did exist I'd be willing to be a part of it ...

What is everyone's opinion on thing's I've touched on today? Do you agree or disagree?
It's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. We see posts like yours once a month, as regular as Isaac Newton's clockwork universe, and the responses are always the same. If you want something to happen, make it happen.
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by Lucap »

Kadaitcha Man wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:11 pmWe see posts like yours once a month.
Who's we?

Post links to the other threads that embodys BPowell1999 topic?
BPowell1999
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by BPowell1999 »

Kadaitcha Man wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:11 pm
BPowell1999 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:58 pm ... as far as I know, there is only 1 small team that works on the entire Linux Mint project, including the Debian Edition.

... in fact, if this dedicated team did exist I'd be willing to be a part of it ...

What is everyone's opinion on thing's I've touched on today? Do you agree or disagree?
It's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. We see posts like yours once a month, as regular as the clockwork universe, and the responses are always the same. If you want something to happen, make it happen.
Really? I couldn't find any results when I did a quick search - although it was indeed a 'quick' one. However, I feel like you're missing the point of my post.

As I pointed out, I want a discussion with the community because I am interested in doing something like this. Maybe I reach out to the existing Mint team and make the proposal to them to have an additional team working on DE if some community members are willing to work with me or I just contribute to the GitHub projects from time to time - I haven't worked out how I'm going to do that yet. Part of what I want to come of the discussion is what approach people feel is best and how many people agree with this - I'm still a Linux novice in the grand scheme of things so I could be missing something huge. But also, probably most importantly, if anyone actually wants this besides just myself. For all I know, I could put months and months of work into this and nobody cares. Or worse, trying this could be detrimental to the project in some way I haven't considered.

Plus, fundamentally I can't do this on my own. I'll need somebody that has more expertise then I do who can help out whilst I'm learning the deeper workings of Linux and what makes a distro.

If my original post can be clarified, please give feedback for it and I'll update it (if the forums allow that).

Thank you for your response.
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by karlchen »

Lucap wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:18 pmWho's we?
We, the forum users.
Lucap wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:18 pmPost links to the other threads that embodys BPowell1999 topic?
No, posts suggesting to switch from Ubuntu as the base for the Linux Mint main edition to Debian as the base for the Linux Mint main edition.
In fact, this would make LMDE the main edition.

The request to have an additional dedicated LMDE dev team seems to be new. At least, we I do not remember having read such a request before.
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Lucap
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by Lucap »

My only concern with a dedicated team is Clem would still need to overlook it to make sure it doesn't drift away and slowly become different...
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by BPowell1999 »

karlchen wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:35 am
Lucap wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:18 pmWho's we?
We, the forum users.
Lucap wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:18 pmPost links to the other threads that embodys BPowell1999 topic?
No, posts suggesting to switch from Ubuntu as the base for the Linux Mint main edition to Debian as the base for the Linux Mint main edition.
In fact, this would make LMDE the main edition.

The request to have an additional dedicated LMDE dev team seems to be new. At least, we I do not remember having read such a request before.
Thank you for the clarification, Karlchen.
Lucap wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:22 am My only concern with a dedicated team is Clem would still need to overlook it to make sure it doesn't drift away and slowly become different...
This is true, but if the team is seperate, perhaps it would have a team-leader of it's own who works closely with Clem? I.e. The team leader would 'report' to Clem in a sense, keeping him updated and asking him about major changes to the project that could have repercussions on the main project.

I'd also like to clarify my original post a little bit, I believe (to begin with) this dedicated team could work on LMDE as a side-project like it is now, keeping it up-to-snuff with the main project and adding additional features & general polish that's currently missing, and then be transitioned to the main project when it's ready.

I apologise for the delay in responding. I was unwell yesterday.
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by Lucap »

https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3953

Don't know if this July Blog from Clem is of any interest , LMDE is important but it's not high on the list.
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by BPowell1999 »

Lucap wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:00 am https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3953

Don't know if this July Blog from Clem is of any interest , LMDE is important but it's not high on the list.
I remember that post - but I'm not sure what relevance that has? LMDE is not a high priority right now because the small team there is works on the Ubuntu-based edition and Debian edition is almost an afterthought. A safety net should Ubuntu implode on itself. However, a dedicated team of a few people working solely on Debian Edition would change the paradigm of that edition and potentially, in future, the whole project. Given that, I'm not entirely sure what statistics from July mean for that? Especially statistics that even Clem said are probably flawed:
Of course, that data has to be taken with a pinch of salt. It is generated from traffic statistics and relies only on the default browser start page (which many users can and do change).
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by Lucap »

I didn't articulate that very well as i'm doing a 100 things at once.

Obviously i can't speak for Clem but what i meant was by not "high on the list" would be a concern that the LMDE team could be held back waiting for Clem to overlook changes or ideas as he recently posted an apology to Debian testing when they were planning on removing the Cinnamon desktop due to lack of activity on the project , it's important to him as well but his time has been taken up else where.

I'm not trying to put your idea down for the sake of it as i'm a big fan of LMDE and think any development is a great idea but i'm just not sure how it would fit in with his time.
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by BPowell1999 »

Lucap wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:36 am I didn't articulate that very well as i'm doing a 100 things at once.

Obviously i can't speak for Clem but what i meant was by not "high on the list" would be a concern that the LMDE team could be held back waiting for Clem to overlook changes or ideas as he recently posted an apology to Debian testing when they were planning on removing the Cinnamon desktop due to lack of activity on the project , it's important to him as well but his time has been taken up else where.

I'm not trying to put your idea down for the sake of it as i'm a big fan of LMDE and think any development is a great idea but i'm just not sure how it would fit in with his time.
I understand - I apologise if it seemed that I was saying you're putting the idea down - I'm familiar with the plight of having 100 simultaneous tasks. For both you and Clem - speaking of which;

That's part of what having a dedicated team would help with, is it not? Having a dedicated team to work on DE means that Clem doesn't need to do everything himself - yes, he'll need to supervise the team and provide guidance from time to time about matters that affect the project as a whole, but surely that would be easier than porting so many packages, projects, provisioning releases, adapting to changes released in Security updates and so much more for that project, whilst also managing the Ubuntu-based version?

Besides which, why refuse a little help if there's people willing to do the work under your guidance? Like I touched on, I myself would be more than willing to be a part of this team with my experience in Python and Apt, however I have literally zero experience with GUI design and development and I'd need to learn these first.
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by Lucap »

I completely agree but i just don't know how you could convince Clem otherwise as the Ubuntu base already does a lot of the heavy lifting with later packages and kernels.
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by t42 »

BPowell1999 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:58 pm I installed V4 on launch day and I've been running it ever since - it's rock-solid stable and very similar to LMDE 19.3.
There is no such thing as LMDE 19.3

BPowell1999 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:58 pm Additionally, Mint being based on Debian would mean that Ubuntu's bugs don't carry through.
There are hundreds if not thousand bugs at any given time in Ubuntu, Debian and kernel. Should it be a religious thing with Ubuntu bugs?
Ubuntu doing enormous technical work and many of they doings go upstream, Debian including
BPowell1999 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:58 pm (or perhaps base on Debian Testing instead of Stable?)
It was tried before and was deemed unmanageable, Clem explained why more than once.

What is the difference between LMDE and Linux Mint (except there are no Driver Manager and Kernel Update Module in LMDE and Debian stable repositories tends to lag behind by definition)? DE is the same, Cinnamon. For years I'm running Debian Testing Cinnamon without any problems, always Cinnamon, apps and libraries are as new as possible. If anyone is not content with conservative LMDE approach can try it (I'm using both):
debian-live-testing-amd64-cinnamon+nonfree.iso
"What is everyone's opinion"
I don't understand how LMDE can be better specifically if Linux Mint will dissapear. Also for me the proposition to split the project team by someone from outside seems strange.
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by BPowell1999 »

Hi t42;

Yes, you are correct that there's no LMDE 19.3 - it was a typing error - I meant base Linux Mint 19.3.

Furthermore, personal attacks on me are completely unwarranted and unnecessary. While you are very much entitled to your opinion on the matter and to voice that opinion, attacking my views through reference as 'religion' and the general tone of condescension is not acceptable.

As a response to your comments regarding Debian Cinnamon non-free - that experience is not comparable to the experience of Linux Mint. Setting up Debian to work like Linux Mint takes expertise that some newer users simply might not have. Linux Mint is, in general, one of the top choices for users as their introduction to the Linux environment. Having to spend hours or days getting their system to a functioning state simply isn't a good experience for a new user.

Further to this point, some people don't wish to tinker with their system quite so often as a low-level distribution like Debian requires. Many people (myself included) would just like to sit at their Linux system and be productive, without the concern of constantly having to research a problem and implement a solution, usually with the command line. This is one of Linux Mint's main selling points and something that should be preserved.

Finally, your comment
I don't understand how LMDE can be better specifically if Linux Mint will dissapear
indicates that you did not read through my proposal clearly - generally, you would be well-advised to read someone's opinion with due care and attention before you make personal attacks such as
The proposition to split the project team by someone from outside seems strange
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by jimallyn »

I think Clem (and other team members) stay pretty up to date on what's happening in the Linux world. When the time comes to move on to something else, they will know. And I trust they will make the right decisions.
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by Moonstone Man »

BPowell1999 wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:24 pm Furthermore, personal attacks on me are completely unwarranted and unnecessary.
Furthermore, claims of personal attacks where there aren't any are completely unwarranted and unnecessary.
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by Aztaroth »

I'm not seeing any reference (or may be I didn't read carefully enough) about donations in this debate. Enlarging the team can be a debatable idea, but developers need to eat too. So, money comes first...

About LMDE4 and Mint, now :
I'm glad LMDE4 is in kinda 'draft' state. Mint's getting too 'sparkles and shines' for me with apps and options I'll never need piling up, but this isn't a critic : if it suits users wants, it's OK.
A lot of features 'Debbie' hasn't can also be considered as advantages. About kernel managing, for example. You can manually manage kernels without conflicting with the OS kernel manager simply because there is none. And end with far more advanced kernels than in the main distro. Of course, you're on your own (not really - there's a nice forum of helpers :D ), but that's my point : LMDE4 can attract advanced users who will be more reluctant to Mint.
I think it would be a mistake trying to make LMDE4 a perfect clone of Mint, but without Ubuntu. In the present state, they attract different types of users and cloning them would loose one type or the other.
dual boot LMDE4 (mostly) + LM19.3 Cinnamon (sometimes)
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by BPowell1999 »

Aztaroth wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:06 am I'm not seeing any reference (or may be I didn't read carefully enough) about donations in this debate. Enlarging the team can be a debatable idea, but developers need to eat too. So, money comes first...

About LMDE4 and Mint, now :
I'm glad LMDE4 is in kinda 'draft' state. Mint's getting too 'sparkles and shines' for me with apps and options I'll never need piling up, but this isn't a critic : if it suits users wants, it's OK.
A lot of features 'Debbie' hasn't can also be considered as advantages. About kernel managing, for example. You can manually manage kernels without conflicting with the OS kernel manager simply because there is none. And end with far more advanced kernels than in the main distro. Of course, you're on your own (not really - there's a nice forum of helpers :D ), but that's my point : LMDE4 can attract advanced users who will be more reluctant to Mint.
I think it would be a mistake trying to make LMDE4 a perfect clone of Mint, but without Ubuntu. In the present state, they attract different types of users and cloning them would loose one type or the other.
Hmm, that's an interesting perspective which I hadn't really considered. You make some valid points here.

Truth be told, I don't think I'll be acting on my proposal anyway. Before I made it, I had thought of the Linux Mint community with a certain kind of awe about how uniquely diverse and supportive people it was. After making several posts, however, including this one, about various topics related to Mint and LMDE, I must admit that that particular view has been smashed.

People haven't been so bad in this particular thread but in some others I've seen that people can be extremely "territorial" about the Mint project. My view about Linux Mint itself as the "just works" distro has also been challenged after I ran into a driver manager that crashes repeatedly, some strange behaviour with dual-screen setups where the appearance of a window and the actual mouse interaction areas are on separate screens and freezing when I try to change my desktop background - all of which have been solved now, but my point is that they occurred at all. I remember in versions 18 and 19 how everything "just worked" but with 20, that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

For all of those reasons combined, I don't believe that I'll be going ahead with my plans to try and contribute to LMDE.
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by Aztaroth »

BPowell1999 :
I remember in versions 18 and 19 how everything "just worked" but with 20, that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
That's a valid point too :wink:
I was using 'normal' Mint since 18.3, but I was unable to solve some printer network problems with 20.1
So, I decide to give a try to LMDE4 and was very surprised how good that "second-hand" version was. I'll probably check Mint 20.3 which will be the mature version of the 20 series but I'm really fond of this one.
dual boot LMDE4 (mostly) + LM19.3 Cinnamon (sometimes)
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Re: Dedicated LMDE team

Post by Tolayon »

Well, for LMDE to gain more traction would require Ubuntu to become considerably worse than it's now (like, making a dozen packages Snap-only, Canonical bought by Microsoft or so).
But even if it happens, Debian Stable as basis has proven problematic for users with newer computers. As far as I know, former versions of LMDE were based on Debian Testing, to which LMDE should return as soon as focus is shifted more towards it.

But as I said, Ubuntu is still not "bad" enough to warrant such a decision, and setting up a dedicated dev team just in case - I don't know if that would be worth the hassle. In worst case, Clem might just tell most Linux-Mint devs to shift over to Debian-Base, while "freezing" Ubuntu-based Mint to maintenance only.
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