LMDE main focus?

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thefish
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LMDE main focus?

Post by thefish »

So, based on the APT/Snap/Chromium/Ubuntu issue who thinks it is time for Clem and team to make LMDE the main focus?

https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3906
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weny
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by weny »

I'm not sure if it's right time, we need to see if Ubuntu will keep symliking apt to snaps other than Chromium and doing other shady stuff behind our back.

I've found out that, at least on Ubuntu, if you install one of the follow packages:
gnome-software and/or gnome-software-plugin-flatpak they will pull snapd as a recommended package, people won't know about adding --no-install-recommends to avoid, some will install snapd without noticing, actually that happened on the DistroTube video.

Btw, now I understand why Clém decided to "block" snapd as a whole instead of just specific packages, some may pull snapd anyway. It's getting too hard to avoid it, Ubuntu is highly dependent on snap, if you remove them, you'll get limited on what you can install. On Linux Mint, at least, there is Flatpak as an alternative, that is totally FOSS, decentralized and from the community. People criticize Mint's approach regarding snap, but they don't criticize what Ubuntu did symlinking APT to install a snap version of Chromium. Ubuntu created the Snap Store to make it hard for you to install flatpak support, if you want.

If Ubuntu keeps doing such things I think switching to Debian base will be the right way. Deepin did it in the past since it used to be based on Ubuntu and now on Debian stable, of course I don't think the stable branch of Debian is the right one for both Mint and Deepin, it's way too old and driver support is far from decent. As far as I know, Ubuntu is based on Debian Testing, middle ground between Stable and Unstable/SID branch. So, if Mint doesn't want to be so dated and a bad recomendation for gaming and music/video production like Deepin, the testing branch is the way to go, in case of, getting rid of Ubuntu as a base. :D
asinoro
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by asinoro »

LMDE gives 32-bit version where Mint 20 don't.
MX Linux did very good job with Debian, Linux Mint can do better if they want, when the time will come you will see!
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by M_aD »

asinoro wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:07 am
LMDE gives 32-bit version where Mint 20 don't.
That is because Debian still supports 32 Bit where Ubuntu does not. That's the reason why Mint 20 only has 64bit iso's.
However, in the future Debian might also drop 32 bit because 32 bit is slowly being phased out. A lot distributions only support 64 bit these days.
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by KBD47 »

I think the time will come when Ubuntu becomes so difficult to build upon without an endless amount of work that Mint will go full Debian. I once thought it would be some huge, dumb move on Ubuntu's part that would force the change, but now I suspect it will be a "thousand small cuts" that causes the change.
But Mint will never build on Debian Sid or Debian Testing. It will be Debian Stable just as now with LMDE. It is easier to backport newer packages that are actually needed verses a "must have newest version of everything" desire. Mint tried the Debian Testing approach and it was a disaster.
Over the past decade I've seen the gap continue to close between Debian and Ubuntu as far as ease of use. I'm using LMDE 4 right now and I still have a perfectly working LMDE 3 on another drive. Debian has never let me down. It has only broke on me when I did something dumb to break it. Ubuntu has broken on me more times than I can count.
Debian Live images use the Calamares installer which is very easy to use. The non-free live images have firmware to make it easier to install, and Debian runs on a large array of hardware. And as I've said before, Debian is a community supported distribution and not a corporate run distribution, which means it can't be sold or decisions made for corporate interests. In short, Ubuntu is only concerned about what Canonical wants. Debian is about the community and what it wants.
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by mike acker »

KBD47 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:55 am
I think the time will come when Ubuntu becomes so difficult to build upon without an endless amount of work that Mint will go full Debian. I once thought it would be some huge, dumb move on Ubuntu's part that would force the change, but now I suspect it will be a "thousand small cuts" that causes the change.
But Mint will never build on Debian Sid or Debian Testing. It will be Debian Stable just as now with LMDE. It is easier to backport newer packages that are actually needed verses a "must have newest version of everything" desire. Mint tried the Debian Testing approach and it was a disaster.
Over the past decade I've seen the gap continue to close between Debian and Ubuntu as far as ease of use. I'm using LMDE 4 right now and I still have a perfectly working LMDE 3 on another drive. Debian has never let me down. It has only broke on me when I did something dumb to break it. Ubuntu has broken on me more times than I can count.
Debian Live images use the Calamares installer which is very easy to use. The non-free live images have firmware to make it easier to install, and Debian runs on a large array of hardware. And as I've said before, Debian is a community supported distribution and not a corporate run distribution, which means it can't be sold or decisions made for corporate interests. In short, Ubuntu is only concerned about what Canonical wants. Debian is about the community and what it wants.
makes sense to me.
¡Viva la Resistencia!
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weny
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by weny »

KBD47 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:55 am
I think the time will come when Ubuntu becomes so difficult to build upon without an endless amount of work that Mint will go full Debian. I once thought it would be some huge, dumb move on Ubuntu's part that would force the change, but now I suspect it will be a "thousand small cuts" that causes the change.
I think the same and I'm kind of worried about that shady "future".
KBD47 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:55 am
But Mint will never build on Debian Sid or Debian Testing. It will be Debian Stable just as now with LMDE. It is easier to backport newer packages that are actually needed verses a "must have newest version of everything" desire. Mint tried the Debian Testing approach and it was a disaster.
Too much stability is more trouble than worth. Ubuntu is based on Debian Testing that's why it is not too dated. The stable branch has been a pain for Deepin. Most of the applications are way to dated (more than actual Ubuntu's), drivers are too old (bad for gaming, performance on other tasks) and so are the libs, Wine and related packages (bad for gaming, audio/video production). I don't consider Debian stable as a good OS for normal usage other than the basics (reading e-mails, accessing the internet, office). It's good for servers that need too much stability. Using newer version of packages in a really dated environment like Debian stable can create more instability, dependency hell is a good example and high dependency on snaps and flatpaks (and I think that Mint doesn't want it).
KBD47 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:55 am
Over the past decade I've seen the gap continue to close between Debian and Ubuntu as far as ease of use. I'm using LMDE 4 right now and I still have a perfectly working LMDE 3 on another drive. Debian has never let me down. It has only broke on me when I did something dumb to break it. Ubuntu has broken on me more times than I can count.
I have two machine, a desktop PC where Mint is installed and a second, that has Manjaro... Both distros haven't given as much problem as Ubuntu have when I used it. Yes, even a rolling release kind of distro like Manjaro is less problematic than Ubuntu... Unbelievable.
KBD47 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:55 am
Debian Live images use the Calamares installer which is very easy to use. The non-free live images have firmware to make it easier to install, and Debian runs on a large array of hardware. And as I've said before, Debian is a community supported distribution and not a corporate run distribution, which means it can't be sold or decisions made for corporate interests. In short, Ubuntu is only concerned about what Canonical wants. Debian is about the community and what it wants.
I know Debian's power and capacity, but it seems everything is created targeting Ubuntu in first place. No sure if it's a problem for Debian since Ubuntu is based on Debian but it's a total different beast. It seems Ubuntu is less dependent on Debian than is Mint on Ubuntu.
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by Benny »

I hope mint go all the way Debian and leave Ubuntu behind , the way the go ? I see a big red flag
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User14
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by User14 »

Having used/tested MX Linux and Manjaro as well as Kubuntu/Ubuntu, one thing is certain as of easy one-stop software installation Manjaro wins (they have the Arch/AUR to thank for this).

As for LMDE (anything pure Debian stable based) the older base software is indeed felt if you want to play games.

Since Canonical is really trying to push their tech and doing some real pushing these days, I would love to see a pure Debian too. Although I love playing games.
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antikythera
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by antikythera »

LMDE4 is indeed based on Buster, not Sid. Regardless, backports are enabled by default for LMDE4, so outdated drivers etc. are not really an issue:

Code: Select all

inxi -Fxz
System:
  Host: ga-am1m-s2h Kernel: 5.4.0-0.bpo.4-amd64 x86_64 bits: 64 
  compiler: gcc v: 8.3.0 Desktop: Cinnamon 4.4.8 Distro: LMDE 4 Debbie 
  base: Debian 10.2 buster 
Machine:
  Type: Desktop Mobo: Gigabyte model: AM1M-S2H v: x.x serial: <filter> 
  BIOS: American Megatrends v: F2 date: 06/20/2014 
CPU:
  Topology: Quad Core model: AMD Athlon 5350 APU with Radeon R3 bits: 64 
  type: MCP arch: Jaguar rev: 1 L2 cache: 2048 KiB 
  flags: lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 sse4a ssse3 svm 
  bogomips: 16369 
  Speed: 799 MHz min/max: 800/2050 MHz Core speeds (MHz): 1: 798 2: 798 
  3: 798 4: 799 
Graphics:
  Device-1: AMD Kabini [Radeon HD 8400 / R3 Series] vendor: Gigabyte 
  driver: amdgpu v: kernel bus ID: 00:01.0 
  Display: x11 server: X.Org 1.20.4 driver: amdgpu,ati 
  unloaded: fbdev,modesetting,vesa tty: N/A 
  OpenGL: renderer: AMD KABINI (DRM 3.35.0 5.4.0-0.bpo.4-amd64 LLVM 7.0.1) 
  v: 4.5 Mesa 18.3.6 direct render: Yes 
Audio:
  Device-1: AMD Kabini HDMI/DP Audio vendor: Gigabyte driver: snd_hda_intel 
  v: kernel bus ID: 00:01.1 
  Device-2: AMD FCH Azalia vendor: Gigabyte driver: snd_hda_intel v: kernel 
  bus ID: 00:14.2 
  Sound Server: ALSA v: k5.4.0-0.bpo.4-amd64 
Network:
  Device-1: Realtek RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet 
  vendor: Gigabyte driver: r8169 v: kernel port: e000 bus ID: 01:00.0 
  IF: enp1s0 state: up speed: 1000 Mbps duplex: full mac: <filter> 
Drives:
  Local Storage: total: 489.05 GiB used: 76.70 GiB (15.7%) 
  ID-1: /dev/sda vendor: Crucial model: CT525MX300SSD1 size: 489.05 GiB 
Partition:
  ID-1: / size: 472.85 GiB used: 76.70 GiB (16.2%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda2 
  ID-2: swap-1 size: 7.64 GiB used: 0 KiB (0.0%) fs: swap dev: /dev/sda1 
Sensors:
  System Temperatures: cpu: 12.9 C mobo: N/A 
  Fan Speeds (RPM): N/A 
Info:
  Processes: 198 Uptime: 1h 33m Memory: 7.23 GiB used: 1.00 GiB (13.9%) 
  Init: systemd runlevel: 5 Compilers: gcc: 8.3.0 Shell: bash v: 5.0.3 
  inxi: 3.0.32 
My games run fine with PlayOnLinux or Steam
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bjmh46
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by bjmh46 »

Another vote for Mint going full Debian! I've got an install of lmde 4 that runs very well on several different laptops. The only thing is, I'm a big fan of XFCE, and would love to see lmde with xfce . If Cinnamon was the only de available though, I could get used to it and be perfectly happy 😊

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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by KBD47 »

Just to add, I'm using a 5.6 kernel on LMDE 4 because it better suits my hardware. Backports are an often overlooked option when using a Debian Stable base when it comes to needing a newer kernel or updated apps. New Mint 20 is only running a 5.4 Linux kernel.
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antikythera
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by antikythera »

KBD47 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:34 am
Just to add, I'm using a 5.6 kernel on LMDE 4 because it better suits my hardware. Backports are an often overlooked option when using a Debian Stable base when it comes to needing a newer kernel or updated apps. New Mint 20 is only running a 5.4 Linux kernel.
Yep, reason I went with 5.4 on my machines is because I won't need to change them again in the lifetime of my machines. They are both already over 5 years old (desktop is coming up for 6) but may last a few more if not all 5 years of kernel 5.4 LTS lifespan with the usual care and maintenance. I don't foresee them becoming defunct in that time as they do not come close to struggling for resources at present, even the one in the inxi above which was cheap as chips to build.

I was going to make it a media server for the lounge originally but was impressed with the performance of the Kabini I kept it as a work PC in my office and built another for the lounge. Both Kabini systems are effectively silent as they have no permanently running mechanicals in them apart from the low RPM 120mm PSU fan which is in eco mode so only come on rarely anyway given the 25W TDP of the processor. They will run a VM with ease on top of linux :)
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by KBD47 »

antikythera wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:59 am

Yep, reason I went with 5.4 on my machines is because I won't need to change them again in the lifetime of my machines. They are both already over 5 years old (desktop is coming up for 6) but may last a few more if not all 5 years of kernel 5.4 LTS lifespan with the usual care and maintenance. I don't foresee them becoming defunct in that time as they do not come close to struggling for resources at present, even the one in the inxi above which was cheap as chips to build.

I was going to make it a media server for the lounge originally but was impressed with the performance of the Kabini I kept it as a work PC in my office and built another for the lounge. Both Kabini systems are effectively silent as they have no permanently running mechanicals in them apart from the low RPM 120mm PSU fan which is in eco mode so only come on rarely anyway given the 25W TDP of the processor. They will run a VM with ease on top of linux :)
I'm using a repurposed Chromebook for LMDE 4, an Acer C740 with a broadwell cpu. There have been broadwell improvements added to newer Linux kernels. I already notice the machine running a few degrees cooler than on the default kernel.
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by bookter »

thefish wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:34 am
So, based on the APT/Snap/Chromium/Ubuntu issue who thinks it is time for Clem and team to make LMDE the main focus?

https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3906

FWIW, I'm starting to agree with you. The first straw on the camel's back was Ubuntu's dropping of KDE. Last week I tried to upgrade from Mint 19.3 to 20, only to find that Chromium is broken and Dukto is broken also. I had a choice to make: Go back to OpenSUSE, install real Debian, or LMDE. I decided against SUSE right away as it isn't as stable as it used to be & requires far too much tweaking to be made so. I'm at a point in my life where I want things to ™Just Work. I tried real Debian for a couple of days & had lockup problems. So I installed LMDE 4 and here I am. So far so good. All my stuff works so far.

"So far." I'm sure I'll encounter some glitches down the road, but Ubuntu's lovable antics have driven me off. Again I say, I'm at a point where I value stability above all else, and I don't like to be hit with gotcha after gotcha after gotcha
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by witzel »

antikythera wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:49 am
LMDE4 is indeed based on Buster, not Sid. Regardless, backports are enabled by default for LMDE4, so outdated drivers etc. are not really an issue:

My games run fine with PlayOnLinux or Steam
It cannot be comparable to Ubuntu, Pop!_OS or Manjaro.
It doesn't matter if you can get a recent driver if all packages, libs and kernel are dated and old. Even older than actual Ubuntu which is clearly based off Debian Testing.
The best distros for gaming are the ones who makes it easy to get latest stuff or does it by default.
You can play games on RHEL, CentOS and even Slackware, but it doesn't mean the performance will be similar to those using Ubuntu/Mint or Arch Linux. :lol:
Mint, at least, even not being the most up-to-date distro, still playable without too much hiccups or hassle. On the other hand, using Debian to play games is not the best thing... It's like trying to make a dated distro like CentOS mainly for servers for gaming, yes, you can achieve that since Linux is all about customizations, but in the end you'll save something else except CentOS...
If the user want to focus only on gaming more than other tasks, I may recommend them to use something Arch-based like Manjaro which is geared towards newbies like Mint or maybe go straight to Windows... since gaming or Linux is far from what Windows actually offers, lets be honest...
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by BG405 »

weny wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:29 am
I'm not sure if it's right time, we need to see if Ubuntu will keep symliking apt to snaps other than Chromium and doing other shady stuff behind our back.
IMHO in that respect it's too late as they've done that already. This is at least to some extent why the LMDE version is being maintained.
weny wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:41 am
I have two machine, a desktop PC where Mint is installed and a second, that has Manjaro... Both distros haven't given as much problem as Ubuntu have when I used it. Yes, even a rolling release kind of distro like Manjaro is less problematic than Ubuntu... Unbelievable.
I too find that rather surprising but have never used "pure" Ubuntu in any flavour. I started out with Mint and from early on in my Linux adventure was already put off by some of their earlier antics, based on my research here and elsewhere.
KBD47 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:55 am
I think the time will come when Ubuntu becomes so difficult to build upon without an endless amount of work that Mint will go full Debian.
I too think that time may come.
bjmh46 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:27 am
The only thing is, I'm a big fan of XFCE, and would love to see lmde with xfce
If Clem & the Team decide to switch fully to Debian, I guess the three current DEs for the presenr offerings will be an option.
bookter wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:04 pm
The first straw on the camel's back was Ubuntu's dropping of KDE
Ubuntu? That was a decision by the Mint Team. :(
Dell Inspiron 1525 - LM17.3 CE 64-------------------Lenovo T440 8GB - Manjaro KDE with Mint VMs
Toshiba NB250 - Manjaro KDE------------------------K7S5A AMD 1.2GHz - LM17.3 Xfce 32 & WinXP-Pro
Acer Aspire E11 ES1-111M - LM18.2 KDE 64 ----Two ROMS don't make a WRITE ...
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by RollyShed »

bookter wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:04 pm
Last week I tried to upgrade from Mint 19.3 to 20, only to find that Chromium is broken and Dukto is broken
Just installed Mint 20 and found Dukto, Chromium/Chrome and MMC are broken.

The HD is a spare as trying to do a dual boot install wouldn't and I'll probably persuade the owner to buy a SSD and I'll definitely put 19.3 on it unless things are fixed.
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by axisofevil »

Recently upgraded to LMDE4 [from LMDE3 [from LMDE2 [from LMDE1 ] ] ] on my main machine. :D

I have Mint on a netbook - but it doesn't do anything that LMDE can do, so it doesn't get used.
In fact, I need to use LMDE for the rare occasions that I want to use Chromium.

I hear rumours that Ubuntu want to bring Unity back. Unity was the last straw for me and Ubuntu.
Deeply distrustful of Ubuntu these days, so it would make sense to transfer all Mint development to LMDE.

It wouldn't matter if LMDE was marketed as Mint - provided all the Ubuntu dependencies were stripped out.

Stability is good.
Getting the latest bleeding edge stuff is greatly over-rated.
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Re: LMDE main focus?

Post by nofixedaddress »

thefish wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:34 am
So, based on the APT/Snap/Chromium/Ubuntu issue who thinks it is time for Clem and team to make LMDE the main focus?
I confess that I stepped 'sideways' with LM20 to LMDE4 because of this issue but I have no problem with Clem and the team continuing the Ubuntu association and quite frankly why would they not!?

Good on Clem and the team and good fortune to them and I for one truly appreciate what they are doing with Ubuntu and Debian.

And hey, even the 10th Window in the sky is "exposing" its users to Ubuntu (Debian 10) and which of us can say that this will be a bad thing for computing and computer users!?

Too many choices... lol ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux

I still occasionally wake in fright with CP/M or IBM-Dos or Apple-Dos commands attacking me.
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