Mass Market Customer Expectations

[gothicpreston]

I read an article recently in which a reviewer stated that they would be uncomfortable just loading up Linux for their parents and leaving them to it. As someone who has done just that, I can agree. I've put Mint on several laptops for family and friends over the last 6 months and found their expectations not being met by the Cinnamon desktop on first use.

Why? Because their expectations are NOT being set by MS Windows, but by their mobile phone and/or tablet !

To create a user experience that the "mass market" will find comfortable and natural to use, we need to provide a desktop which has equivalent functionality to these mobile devices, rather than the "developers productivity desktop", modelled on MS Windows.

Feedback from my small user base; Contacts, Email, Calendar, and On-Line Accounts must all integrate out of the box. Also a Search Tool and the Effects on window open/close/minimise should be enabled by default.
My friends and family also prefer a Docky launcher and top panel, as they all own iPads.

If we want disillusioned Windows 8 users to migrate to Mint, then we need to give them a compelling alternative to iPads, and Androids with a user experience that matches these on first use.

The rest of us can easily switch off all this additional functionality if we don't want/need it.
(Yep, I'm a bit old schooll too!)

Does anyone else have similar experiences with "users" rather than "developers" ?

GP

[MartyMint]

No thanks.

I switched to Linux Mint Mate Edition from Ubuntu w/Unity precisely because I didn't want a phone interface on my desktop.

[dragon-dragon_dragon]

I think you've got some good ideas here, but I don't think the solution is to clone the mobile phone experience. Trying to be more like a mobile device is exactly why windows 8 is the colossal failure that it is. Literally no one who 'uses computers' likes windows 8. Old, terrible windows-only IT people hate it because it's not like the last version of windows. Techy gamers hate it because it removes them from "My Computer" and folder structures yet another step further. I've never encountered anyone walking away from a windows 8 session with a positive experience.

I totally agree with you about dock bars though. I would encourage the Linux Mint team to either pick a Dock to use (and implement the start menu in it, the dock I use can't do that, not sure it's possible with out some collaboration between LM and a dock developer) or start rolling their own. Dock bars make for an extremely plesant working experience and solve a lot of UX inefficiencies. There are some ugly docks out there, and some pleasant ones (I like 'docky' right now).

For integrated accounts though, I think FireFox and thunderbird provide a lot more than what you're using them for. "Native Apps" are sort of on their way out. I think the future is widgets that can read/write to online, cloud based services. Linux Mint somewhat provides these... I imagine that you would be interested in a widget called "omni-account integration" that had a calander, an email client, a todolist, other google products, etc., etc. It may be entirely possible to write such a widget at the moment. I think what's holding this aspect of LM back is that these widgets are not well exposed to the end user, and they aren't intuitive/ well documented enough for would-be widget developers. They also aren't designed to be as versatile as say a "native app". They can't run as stand alone programs. They can't be called on the command line what so ever. Can they read ~/.my_widget? They might be unable to call other command line apps (not sure). I think widgets are the root-most solution to your problem.

There are a lot of problems involved with 'simple account integration'. On most phones, if you want to switch aliases (and even with google accounts on a real computer) it can be a nightmare. It seems that read/write widgets that interact with cloud based services like google calendar are the path of least resistence. I don't share all of my appointments with Google Monitor Double Plus™, but you might want to try out a plugin for thunderbird that integrates with your gmail account.


As for installing LM for other people, I say bravo, it's kind of a tricky thing to do. I (somewhat gently) forced someone at my work to use LM instead of XP and it was a tricky adjustment for her at work, but I think overall she likes it now. I would be much happier if there were a way for me to easily make customizations to linux mint, post install. I'd do a bunch of apt-gets, curl down and install some binary files, enable minimize and fade effects in Cinnamon, and possibly deploy my dotfile repository. I've been debating building a ruby gem to do this for me automatically, but I'm always so pressed for time it's difficult for me to take time out to work on such things. Customizable deploy configurations would be sweet, we could keep them on github and share them with eachother just like dotfile sharing works today.

[JWJones]

Hahaha, here ya go, a dumbed-down Linux computer for push-button/iPad/smartphone users:

http://www.mywowcomputer.com/

Concerning docks:
One thing I often wonder, is why the need for a separate dock application, such as Docky, AWN, Cairo? I can create the same functionality/appearance with both Xfce panels or KDE. It would seem that the same is possible with Gnome 3, but I don't use it so I don't know. Not sure what Cinnamon is capable of in that department, either.

[DrHu]

To create a user experience that the "mass market" will find comfortable and natural to use, we need to provide a desktop which has equivalent functionality to these mobile devices, rather than the "developers productivity desktop", modelled on MS Windows.

Can't agree to that: Microsoft and Apple are moving targets; chasing them or their methods is a complete waste of resources and time

• And Linux per see is simply the OS + Applications; it is not a platform: there are no consumer (mass market) OEM agreements in place, nor ever likely to be
  --as much of a niche product as Apple's OSX, but at least Apple has a bundled platform available, and therefor can entice fans or other interested parties that just want a package (hardware + software (apps!))

Your issue is a long-standing complaint, mostly from windows OS users (who have a particular preference as to how an OS should function): and if all those users who think they see the issue so clearly were developers who had that opinion, then they may produce their own distribution

• But, good luck getting any OEM partnerships
  Dell for example claimed to support Linux at one time, but it was definitely a far-distant second or last choice for them: try getting a Linux installed from Dell: they have now abandoned that option completely, at least for consumer products

There are few, if any choices available..
https://www.linux.com/news/software/app ... -platforms
http://www.linuxlinks.com/Hardware/

In the enterprise marketplace, Red Hat (in the USA) is the choice, possibly Ubuntu; possibly because of their ability to get free publicity
http://searchenterpriselinux.techtarget ... o-big-deal

[dragon-dragon_dragon]

Concerning docks:
One thing I often wonder, is why the need for a separate dock application, such as Docky, AWN, Cairo? I can create the same functionality/appearance with both Xfce panels or KDE. It would seem that the same is possible with Gnome 3, but I don't use it so I don't know. Not sure what Cinnamon is capable of in that department, either.

I'm a LM Cinnamon/ gnome 3 user, and I'm 80% sure that gome's panel can't act like a dock panel. And since Cinnamon is based on gnome it requires a discrete dock package. The features I look for in a dock are:

-Right click a running application to pin to dock
-Starting apps, switching to apps, and closing apps is handled by the same icon in the same spot
-The number of running instances are indicated by the app's icon --docky only counts to 2 =(
-Mouseovering an icon will display a preview of the windows --not offered by docky =(

I've never used Xfce before and it looks like dock panels come standard which is nice. I'm pretty fond of Cinnamon's start menu search bar which is surprisingly helpful.

[MartyMint]

The features I look for in a dock are:

-Right click a running application to pin to dock
-Starting apps, switching to apps, and closing apps is handled by the same icon in the same spot
-The number of running instances are indicated by the app's icon --docky only counts to 2 =(
-Mouseovering an icon will display a preview of the windows --not offered by docky =(

You're practically describing Unity...

[andy chung]

Doesn't "add to panel" serve the purpose of having a dock?
I do prefer 2 experience using my pc and my smartphone. Afterall I use them very differently. Isn't having 2 better than having 1?

[dragon-dragon_dragon]

The features I look for in a dock are:

-Right click a running application to pin to dock
-Starting apps, switching to apps, and closing apps is handled by the same icon in the same spot
-The number of running instances are indicated by the app's icon --docky only counts to 2 =(
-Mouseovering an icon will display a preview of the windows --not offered by docky =(

You're practically describing Unity...

You clearly have only read about either docks or Unity. To equate the two requires a complete lack of understanding of at least one of the technologies. Docks don't involve messing up the alt-tab behavior, they don't implement their own start menu, and docks don't start out with random icons that other people thought you might like to use. In fact, docks are most useful when you personally customize them to run particular suites of programs that you often use together. Docks are more like task bars than they are like Unity. But nice job coming off smug while not knowing what you're talking about, lol. For next time, if you try putting your smug thoughts into the form of honest and respectful questions, you're likely to be treated respectfully in return.

Doesn't "add to panel" serve the purpose of having a dock?
I do prefer 2 experience using my pc and my smartphone. Afterall I use them very differently. Isn't having 2 better than having 1?

Lol andy, no that's not what a dock is, and no that's not coherent English. You can check out what I'm talking about easily by doing

Code: Select all

apt install docky
docky

Maybe after playing around a bit, my earlier post will make more sense to you? Specifically the closing, opening, minimizing and inspecting of processes is all being handled in one place instead of two places with your method.

[JWJones]

Docks don't involve messing up the alt-tab behavior, they don't implement their own start menu, and docks don't start out with random icons that other people thought you might like to use. In fact, docks are most useful when you personally customize them to run particular suites of programs that you often use together. Docks are more like task bars than they are like Unity.

I'm getting a better understanding of what you're looking for in a dock, which pretty much describes the Dock in Mac OSX. As I had stated in my previous post, although you can achieve much of the same functionality with both Xfce panels and KDE, it's not the same. I have only flirted briefly with Docky, AWN, and Cairo, so I don't remember how close each of those did or didn't come to the Mac OSX Dock.

I'm tempted to try Pear Linux, to see what they are doing in this respect, as they seem to be trying to most closely replicate the Mac OSX experience in Linux.

[gothicpreston]

Chaps/Chapesses,
Whilst the discussions have merit in their own right, I was actually looking for any feedback from "Joe Average" users, on the fringes of our community, rather than ourselves.
We already like our Mint flavours just the way they are; that's why we chose them for our own use originally.
However, in order to capture more users from outside the current community, we may have to consider what features they need to have in oder to make the switch and swell our ranks. These may be features that we currently don't make much use of, or expect to find at first switch on.
"Out there", are millions of consumers who have their own needs, which may well be different from those of us "in here".
In the absence of a market survey, I just thought we may have some impiricle feedback from people we may have shared Mint with.

GP

[JWJones]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever read "In the Beginning was the Command Line" by Neal Stephenson?

I own the book, but the full text can be downloaded here:

http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html

Anyway, the only real way to "swell the ranks" as you say, is to have Linux installed on hardware already, that people can buy at the local electronics superstore, and such. People use Windows mostly because they can go down and purchase a computer with it already installed, at a fairly reasonable price (compared to Mac hardware). They don't use Windows because it is technologically superior to the competition. Having said that, look at the success of Android devices, and a ChromeOS laptop is the best selling laptop at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Comp ... /pc/565108

So, in a sense, Linux is gaining a good foothold already, and Microsoft is becoming an also-ran. Apple will probably continue to do well, regardless, if they continue to innovate in the face the loss of Steve Jobs.