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Switch to SMF from SystemD?

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:24 pm
by pgmer6809
Mint seems to be gradually moving away from total reliance on Ubuntu. That being the case, and now that the detractors worst fears about systemD have been proven to be at least plausible, how about if Mint ports the Solaris SMF facility to Linux? SMF seems to offer a modern, parallelized, declarative syntax startup infrastructure, has been on Solaris for over 10 years, and does not try to have the global reach of systemD.
If it were available, maybe even Debian could be persuaded to adopt it.
I realize that it is not GPL, but if Ubuntu can bundle ZFS with a dsitro I think that Mint could do the same with SMF.

I was looking forward to using systemD, but the latest news about a very simple hack that cripples the system has left me feeling that the detractors may be right.

pgmer6809

Re: Switch to SMF from SystemD?

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:32 pm
by pgmer6809
FYI those who have not heard of the attack on systemD here is a link to the slasdot story
https://linux.slashdot.org/story/16/10/ ... in-systemd

Re: Switch to SMF from SystemD?

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:50 pm
by MartyMint
So, non-GPL'ed software is okay, but systemd is somehow the devil?



Oh. Okay.

Re: Switch to SMF from SystemD?

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:03 pm
by deepakdeshp
pgmer6809 wrote:Mint seems to be gradually moving away from total reliance on Ubuntu. That being the case, and now that the detractors worst fears about systemD have been proven to be at least plausible, how about if Mint ports the Solaris SMF facility to Linux? SMF seems to offer a modern, parallelized, declarative syntax startup infrastructure, has been on Solaris for over 10 years, and does not try to have the global reach of systemD.
If it were available, maybe even Debian could be persuaded to adopt it.
I realize that it is not GPL, but if Ubuntu can bundle ZFS with a dsitro I think that Mint could do the same with SMF.

I was looking forward to using systemD, but the latest news about a very simple hack that cripples the system has left me feeling that the detractors may be right.

pgmer6809
I ran this code but it didnt crash Mint 18 Cinnamon.

Code: Select all

while true; do NOTIFY_SOCKET=/run/systemd/notify systemd-notify ""; done
Or is there any other code which makes systemD crash?

Re: Switch to SMF from SystemD?

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:21 am
by xenopeek
What makes you think "Mint seems to be gradually moving away from total reliance on Ubuntu"?

As for CVE-2016-7796, the systemd issue described in pgmer6809's link, current status is for Linux Mint 13 (Ubuntu 12.04 based), 17.x (Ubuntu 14.04 based) and 18 (Ubuntu 16.04 based) that triage is needed: https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-se ... -7796.html. LMDE 2 doesn't use systemd init but it does use systemd udev; I don't know if this issue affects LMDE 2. LMDE 2 is based on Debian Jessie and would also need triage if it is affected: https://security-tracker.debian.org/tra ... -2016-7796. The systemd package maintainers from Ubuntu and Debian will package a fix.

Anyway, this wouldn't be a reason to consider switching from systemd. If you follow the security notices for any critical software installed on your system you won't be able to use anything. Like from 2014 this similar fixed Linux kernel issue that was 5 years old at the time: https://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/05/ ... -bug-fixed.

Re: Switch to SMF from SystemD?

Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:16 am
by pgmer6809
So, non-GPL'ed software is okay, but systemd is somehow the devil?

Oh. Okay.
Huh?

1) Non GPL software IS okay. My preference if for GPL'd software. But there are other Open Source licenses (eg Apache) and some of these are accepted as 'free as in freedom' licenses by the FSF. The license for Open Solaris is one of these. It is not compatible with the GPL though, so you could not create a derived work from GPL software using its license.

2) Who said that systemD is the devil? Not me. And your attempt to defend systemD by setting up a straw man does not serve your cause. While personally I have found Pottering's postings on ssytemD to be quite reasonable in tone, there are many systemD detractors who object strongly to exactly this kind of statement (or worse).

3) Would anyone care to address the real questions in the OP and comment on the merits of
a) SMF as a technical solution
b) the merits of using SMF instead of systemD or OpenRC?
c) The argument/question that if Ubuntu can circumvent the ZFS licensing issues and include it in a distro, the one should be able to do the same with SMF (assuming it is desirable to do so).

pgmer6809

Re: Switch to SMF from SystemD?

Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:27 am
by pgmer6809
What makes you think "Mint seems to be gradually moving away from total reliance on Ubuntu"?
I could be wrong.

But in the last few releases of Mint there have been the following "non-Ubuntu' features:
a) an LMDE version
b) two new desktops that are not part of Ubuntu
c) a software manager/center that is not part of Ubuntu
d) and now in version 18 they introduce these "X-Apps" that are not necessarily ubuntu apps but apps optimized for the cinnamon and mate desktops.

What I am saying is that the Mint team seem perfectly capable of doing significant 'non-ubuntu' development if they think that it serves their mission.
If they were to port SMF to Debian, they might be doing the whole Debian community a big favor, regardless of the merits of systemD.
a) Choice and alternatives are good.
b) the DEVUAN fork might get folded back into Debian saving development resources for other needed projects.


Remember, this Board is for suggestions regarding new ideas and suggestions that we would like to see in MINT.

pgmer6809

Re: Switch to SMF from SystemD?

Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:59 am
by xenopeek
I think you're wrong about the "last few releases" part:
a) LMDE was first released 6 years ago.
b) Cinnamon was announced 5 years ago and is an official edition since Linux Mint 13 (replacing GNOME 3 + MGSE edition of Linux Mint 12). MATE is an official edition since Linux Mint 12.
c) Software Manager was announced more than 7 years ago.
d) X-Apps are to solve the issue of newer versions of GNOME 3 applications looking out of place on desktop environments that aren't a shell for GNOME 3.

Ubuntu, like Debian, is a key component on top of which Linux Mint is built.