Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

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dentiuro
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Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by dentiuro »

Some of my friends are now interested in migrating to Linux, I think this is the distribution I used the most and I really wanted to continue recommending it.

I love this distribution and I don't want to offend anyone but I realize that lately Linux distributions are putting aside the end user experience.

And then... I tested the new Fedora...

I hate Gnome with passion, I prefer debian-based distributions but I find it hard to argue that what Fedora 33 represents to the end user is probably the future of Linux as a desktop system, Wayland and no more tearing, BTRFS, the politeness and consistency of the application pattern is something to be envied.

In all forums that i use it is common for someone to demonstrate a problem and be answered with "ah but this is a question of (insert here x factor that is external to the distribution)" and i see little to no effort to solve these "problems" that the end user perceives.

Since I discovered Mint people have always treated him as the bridge to the Linux universe and I respect that, but when I click on a website upload button and open a file manager that is the same as Gnome and completely breaks Cinnamon’s visual identity, when I’m going to open a video file and see different players in different versions (on same interface), when I install audacious and it installs and outdated version I can understand the resistance when these people decide not to migrate.

I don't want to throw rocks at you but I come to communicate that as a distribution fan there is a gap between what the end user expects from a system and what Linux Mint is currently delivering. It doesn’t affect me very much but I can see now many things that will be problematic for a new user.

If someone was offended by what I said I apologize, but if someone is interested in knowing I can name several things that range from trying customized resolutions in the "monitors window" to style of standard system applications.

I hope you are all well
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by Moem »

So what is the actual suggestion or new idea for Mint that you are presenting?
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by MartyMint »

Moem wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:39 am
So what is the actual suggestion or new idea for Mint that you are presenting?
I think it's something like:

"I want a bleeding-edge rolling release because software that is 4 weeks old is old and yucky and if Microsoft has taught us anything it's that if software is older than the milk in my refridgerator, it's probably broken and vulnerable...and I don't mind that my distro uses me as a guinea pig because re-installing Linux is fun! Wheeee!!!!"

....or something like that.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by Moem »

That's nice, but I asked the OP.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by MartyMint »

You're right.
Let's wait for them to reply then.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by dentiuro »

MartyMint wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:53 am
Moem wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:39 am
So what is the actual suggestion or new idea for Mint that you are presenting?
I think it's something like:

"I want a bleeding-edge rolling release because software that is 4 weeks old is old and yucky and if Microsoft has taught us anything it's that if software is older than the milk in my refridgerator, it's probably broken and vulnerable...and I don't mind that my distro uses me as a guinea pig because re-installing Linux is fun! Wheeee!!!!"

....or something like that.
See? This guy proved my point.

So... As i said, it doesn't make much difference to me but let's be honest: it is not the first day of any of us here using Linux and i think we are losing as a community not offering certain conveniences to the end user.

And yes, like it or not the installation process for the end user is very important, before reducing my comment to what Marty said, I ask you: have you seen the Fedora 33 installation process? Srly, the installation + 1st time boot is something that I honestly believe that we should have.

And I don't know what hole they got this rolling release from, it's much simpler than that, I'm talking about audacious, one of the most showed music players in the alternativeto when you put Linux+open source.

I am going to tell you about a problem that happened to me recently, for some reason my secondary monitor does not change to its native resolution after installing mint. For me? It's easy! xrandr addmode and switch.

My younger cousin was interested in installing mint and the same problem occurred ... It turns out that he has only 1 16:9 LCD screen that mint recognizes as 4: 3 and the only way he can try to change the resolution is through the terminal... Why? Again, I'm not talking about creating a super complex and new interface model with 1024 desktops ... I'm talking about testing a resolution, changing the options from 4: 3 to 16: 9.

Don't get me wrong, I can deal with these problems, but seeing what these people are going through I wonder why this is not the standard for linux distributions.
You can't change the sound device using the standard taskbar applet ... Why?
When I put Nemo to organize the files in alphabetical order it organizes something like this: File.A.Part2, File.A.Part3, File.A.Part4, File.A... Why?

I knew this was the kind of thing that didn't just happen to me and i was ok with that but watching what my friends are facing made me understand how much polish is needed for the user who just wants to migrate to Mint.

Some applications are Gnome-style, while others are something like Windows 10. And as I said: I hate gnome but application consistency on Fedora 33 is enviable.

At the moment I am not on my standard computer but I can make a list of the things that I perceive that are strange to the end user and I could bet that they would not be any challenge for the developers of this system. But first of all I would like to ask you to kindly consider what I said, install Fedora on a Virtual Machine, watch a friend using Mint, take a good look at the integrity and consistency of Linux Mint Cinnamon.

You guys did an incredible job with this system, I just thought that I should not fail to mention these things since several things were piling up.

I'll try to come back as soon as possible with some images and examples to be less conceptual and more direct
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by Moem »

That would be good. But keep in mind that you are mainly talking to other users here.
By the way, no, I will not install a virtual machine and then a different distro, just in order to maybe see what you are seeing. If you can explain it clearly, that would go a long way. Otherwise people will keep misunderstanding your point, just like it happened above.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by MartyMint »

dentiuro wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:48 am
...several things were piling up.
I suspect your concerns are more DE related than distro related.
Mint isn't welded to Cinnamon.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by dentiuro »

MartyMint wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:51 am
dentiuro wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:48 am
...several things were piling up.
I suspect your concerns are more DE related than distro related.
Mint isn't welded to Cinnamon.
You proved my point once again... "insert any x here"

I know there is something on DE development but you're missing my point.

Imagine that you recommended Linux Mint to someone, that person downloaded Linux Mint 20 - Cinnamon, what will that person see? What is the feeling? The response?

You guys are delivering Linux Mint with Cinnamon, I am not blaming anyone here for anything, the only thing I come to warn is that for that person this is seen as a problem.

First of all I would like to ask you not to paint a target on my back or to treat it as if I simply want to denigrate the work done on the system. Hold your horses!
For some reason every time I say something like that, things that can improve for the end user are always treated as if I should use another distribution or as if I'm not tech savy enough.

So.. Let me put this in this way...

If I want to install Fedora 33 now it will recognize my secondary monitor from start, Mint won't.

The installation process is: select language, keyboard and disk. That's it.
Other settings are on the first boot.
On fedora any application I open will have the same feeling, compare Disks, Celluloid and Archive manager on Mint and will feel like 3 different systems.

A long time ago, i've got my 1st computer, the OS was Conectiva Linux and from the loading screen to the DE everything had the same color and the same pattern. The boot screen was stylized with an image of the distribution logo with a loading bar or a custom background for the CLI...

Fedora 33 has something very close to that right now and I honestly think it's a valid change for Mint too.

It's not a matter of me stepping on someone's head saying "Change it! Come on!" but to seek an extra care for this type of thing.

It's not like Linux mint is just Ubuntu with apt remove gnome and apt install cinnamon, I wouldn't come here to waste my time making trouble if I didn't think it wasn't a valid change.

Some Linux channels (Diolinux for example) are noticing that lack of consistency.

If you want to have a standard Windows window (minimize, maximize, close - file, edit, view, help) let all elements of the system be like this.
If there is to be a gnome-style window (bleeergh), let ALL of them be like this.

But if it is to be halfway and each application with its style, without consistency the system loses some of its charm (especially for the end user).

I personally prefer that all windows have a style close to Nemo File Manager, but it has to be all of them at least of the applications that come with the system. If not looks poor, unpolished.

It is not because the command line is extremely powerful that you cannot place certain options (xrandr addmode switch 4:3 16:9) in a GUI.

A friend of mine noticed something interesting, when he logged into Windows and transferred a file to the thumb drive, Windows showed exactly when the operation was over and he could remove the thumb drive. In Mint, not only did the computer sometimes freezes (depending on the number of files) but after ejecting the device it still had a good time with the message "writing data to the device".

I can say a lot here but it’s really more a matter of perspective than specific cases, and although I know you’re Mint users I truly recommend you try it out and see it, whether with a USB stick or a vm, just look at it, I honestly want this distribution to offer a similar consistency in that sense
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by Moem »

dentiuro wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:53 pm
You guys are delivering Linux Mint with Cinnamon
I'm not delivering any such thing. Again, you are on a user forum and talking to other users here.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by dentiuro »

Moem wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:57 pm
dentiuro wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:53 pm
You guys are delivering Linux Mint with Cinnamon
I'm not delivering any such thing. Again, you are on a user forum and talking to other users here.
I'm trying to demonstrate to the community as a whole, what's coming out of the oven, what we're getting, what came out of the Linux Mint scene that's the reason I used that term

did you get to see any video of the installation process i'm talking about? the first boot screen?
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by MartyMint »

So Linux Mint doesn't ship with a "feel" that is as "polished" as your tastes would prefer....

It seems to please many users that are introduced to it, including absolute noobs. It's a popular distro...more popular than Fedora's offerings, I imagine.
I think its an attractive, streamlined and well manicured product...and I say that as someone who doesn't use Mint as their #1 distro.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by absque fenestris »

Good - I tried Fedora in the Virtual Box: the GNOME desktop is still completely stupid.
The setting for Hi-DPI is stupid too ... and the cursor cannot be adjusted.
Then I loaded Scribus - it comes in a completely unusable alpha version ...

So much for the beautiful, shiny and polished desktop ... I deleted everything again, rather disgusted.
Linux Mint 18.3 Sylvia (MATE) 32-bit - Acer D250 Netbook
Linux Mint 20 Ulyana (Cinnamon) 64-bit - Huawei MateBook X Pro
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by RIH »

dentiuro wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:36 am
I don't want to throw rocks at you but I come to communicate that as a distribution fan there is a gap between what the end user expects from a system and what Linux Mint is currently delivering. It doesn’t affect me very much but I can see now many things that will be problematic for a new user.
Well, having read your piece I decided to give Fedora 33 a spin in Virtualbox.
I dislike Gnome - if I didn't then I would probably be using Ubuntu instead of Mint - so I downloaded the Cinnamon version as I felt that would make the best comparison with Mint,

I didn't like the Anaconda installer & felt that it was anything but user friendly.
Indeed I thought that a lot of the decisions required in setting up a system would completely baffle someone new to Linux as there is no indication of what the impact of your choices is going to have.
Is locking the root account (for example) a good or a bad idea ? Especially as it is possible to create an install without a user.
Should you make your new User administrator?

Personally, I believe that the Ubiquity approach of stepping a new user though a series of questions is a far more user friendly approach. It is also the approach that any ex-Windows user is used to.

I can't envisage a more user friendly duo of the Software Manager & Update Manager in Mint.
I guess that their equivalent in Fedora is dnfdragora & rpm.
dnfdragora seemed, to me, to be very much like the Synaptic Package Manager in Mint - a great system, but one that I would imagine would give the heebie-jeebies to anyone coming from a graphical user interface environment.
rpm is a terminal package manager. While there is no doubting the power of the terminal, it can hardly be described as 'new user friendly'..

One, final thing, once I installed this relatively new iso (launched 27th. October) I was offered 269 updates.
I would imagine that alone would send any update fearing Windows 10 refugee running to the hills.

All that being said, the actual system ran well & I was comfortable using it, but I can't see anyway that a new user to Linux would find it an easy transition - especially when compared to Mint.

Will I be using it as my daily driver? No, not at the moment, but I will keep tapping away at it in Virtualbox.. :D
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by Kadaitcha Man »

dentiuro wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:48 am
So... As i said, it doesn't make much difference to me but let's be honest: it is not the first day of any of us here using Linux and i think we are losing as a community not offering certain conveniences to the end user.
I'm going to use three and only 3 words taken directly from the Fedora project's page to argue against almost everything you've written.

Created for Developers.

Enough said.
Coming to a thread near you: Lots of bragging about my AMD 5950X. Currently delayed due to high demand.
It's pronounced kad-eye-cha, not kada-itcha.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by all41 »

Kadaitcha Man wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:19 am
dentiuro wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:48 am
So... As i said, it doesn't make much difference to me but let's be honest: it is not the first day of any of us here using Linux and i think we are losing as a community not offering certain conveniences to the end user.
I'm going to use three and only 3 words taken directly from the Fedora project's page to argue against almost everything you've written.

Created for Developers.

Enough said.
slam dunk :P
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear smart until you hear what they are saying.
You will seldom see a grey-beard wearing a tinfoil hat.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by Kadaitcha Man »

all41 wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:49 am
Kadaitcha Man wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:19 am
dentiuro wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:48 am
So... As i said, it doesn't make much difference to me but let's be honest: it is not the first day of any of us here using Linux and i think we are losing as a community not offering certain conveniences to the end user.
I'm going to use three and only 3 words taken directly from the Fedora project's page to argue against almost everything you've written.

Created for Developers.

Enough said.
slam dunk :P
Plus a full stop.
Coming to a thread near you: Lots of bragging about my AMD 5950X. Currently delayed due to high demand.
It's pronounced kad-eye-cha, not kada-itcha.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by Pierre »

the thing to bear in mind, here,
- is that the LinuxMint System is supposed to be designed as an Stable system, fore-most,
and thus it doesn't have the latest cutting-edge of anything.

so, if an new_use wants those later versions, then there is a few other Linux Systems,
that do offer that level of experience.

personally, I'm tired of the poor Windows Experience, where it often crashes, for no good reason.
now, an Linux System is not bullet_proof, by any means,
but, this LinuxMint system .. is far more stable, than any of my prior Windows Experience .. ever was.
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Please edit your original post title to include [SOLVED] - when your problem is solved!
and DO LOOK at those Unanswered Topics - - you may be able to answer some!.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by all41 »

Pierre wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:25 am
the thing to bear in mind, here,
- is that the LinuxMint System is supposed to be designed as an Stable system, fore-most,
and thus it doesn't have the latest cutting-edge of anything.

so, if an new_use wants those later versions, then there is a few other Linux Systems,
that do offer that level of experience.

personally, I'm tired of the poor Windows Experience, where it often crashes, for no good reason.
now, an Linux System is not bullet_proof, by any means,
but, this LinuxMint system .. is far more stable, than any of my prior Windows Experience .. ever was.
doesn't have the latest cutting-edge of anything
What is offered seems the best compromise though--the cutting edge philosopy steers many users here.
Not to say Mint is behind the times, rather just read us as smartly moving forward.
And canonical no longer butters our bread --another smart move going forward
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear smart until you hear what they are saying.
You will seldom see a grey-beard wearing a tinfoil hat.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by Moem »

dentiuro wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:00 pm
I'm trying to demonstrate to the community as a whole, what's coming out of the oven, what we're getting, what came out of the Linux Mint scene that's the reason I used that term

did you get to see any video of the installation process i'm talking about? the first boot screen?
I know what we're getting. I'm using Mint Cinnamon and liking it. I'm that end user you keep talking about and so is my mother.
She's doing fine on Mint. I've never heard her complain about Gnome or about inconsistencies in Cinnamon’s visual identity, or about Audacity being outdated. In fact, after her first half our on Mint, her opinion was that it looked a lot neater than she expected.

No, I did not watch any video.
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