Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

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Kadaitcha Man
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by Kadaitcha Man »

all41 wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:07 am
What is offered seems the best compromise though--the cutting edge philosopy steers many users here.
I don't mind cutting edge. The problem is maintaining the system and winding back updates that weren't properly tested. For me, the happy compromise is KDE neon.
all41 wrote:And canonical no longer butters our bread...
I'm clueless as to what that is supposed to convey.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by all41 »

Kadaitcha Man wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:13 am
all41 wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:07 am
What is offered seems the best compromise though--the cutting edge philosopy steers many users here.
I don't mind cutting edge. The problem is maintaining the system and winding back updates that weren't properly tested. For me, the happy compromise is KDE neon.
all41 wrote:And canonical no longer butters our bread...
I'm clueless as to what that is supposed to convey.
I have never used neon just kubuntu for kde.
I'm clueless as to what that is supposed to convey.
The Mint team rejected ubuntu's implementation of snapd, and imho this thinking will trend.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by all41 »

we are well off topic--my apologies to the op and others
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by antikythera »

Having used Fedora Workstation before, yes it's got a uniform interface but so what? The reason it's like that is because it's near enough pure GNOME Adwaita. Fortunately they have other spins available so I used MATE or KDE instead of Workstation. Doing so breaks the uniformity to the same extent it is missing according to the OP here but it's worth it in my mind.

The only new headline toy for F33 is btrfs but again that's not really new as it's been an install option for years. Their shiny installer is a cut down version of the RHEL one. If you want to see it in full, download RHEL or CentOS network install ISO.

Some of the process has been removed on the Workstation ISO specifically and is now handled by the GNOME equivalent of Mint's Welcome Screen. You use that to enter a username and password, add an email or storage account etc.

The Workstation ISO is not really aimed at home users, it is enterprise focused and pretty much a test environment for future RHEL features. Some of the spins address that a little but the OS is semi-dictated to by what RH want out of it.

Advantages for Cinnamon? It is aimed at home users and not dictated to by what a major project sponsor wants from it.

There's at least one individual from the Fedora User Community (thankfully there's no K word following that...) contributing to Cinnamon though, LeighLinux to whom we are all very grateful. He quite often submits bug fixes which we all benefit from.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by dentiuro »

all41 wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:32 am
we are well off topic--my apologies to the op and others
That's the problem...
I've tried to be as clear as possible, but you can't show something for those who don't want to see.

From people taking 3 words from Fedora website to not even watching the video it's very hard to have a grounded conversation, i didn't want this to be a gorrila like pounding chest oh my gosh....

It's simple: Installation process simplified + better first time boot;
Uniform interface;
More options (like i've said about the monitor) on the GUI;

"oh but my mom like this way", "but fedora its for developers" I DON'T CARE! This is not the point!
I never said Fedora is better than Mint, i am not using Fedora! But, it is not 'cause i don't use it that i cannot appreciate these things!

"Oh but mint is stable", "oh but that is about just the DE" WHO CARES? Can't we have that? Mint is just a Ubuntu - Gnome? That's it?

I've said, look at the video, can you see the process? Can you please try to understand the impact for something simplified like this to most end users?
I am not saying BE LIKE FEDORA! I am saying: Fedora did something interesting here, i think you should have that.

I, maybe it's just me BUT my friends (and some channels) say that Linux Mint sometimes feel cheap and unpolished 'cause 3 programs can have 3 different design concepts, you like that? Your mom likes that? That's fine! But please, the point is: I honestly think a more uniform system will make a better impression (and i don't think this is a hard sell for someone who wants to think about some changes).

The installation process can be less of a "installation process" and more of a first boot experience, you like the old one? Fine. You think we still should have some options there during the installation process? Fine. Can we still have some of that first boot experience like Fedora? That's asking too much? I'm not asking to bring back KDE, i'm not asking to change to .rpm packages, im just saying: Installation process simplified + better first time boot; That's it! That's the point.

You don't want to watch anything, understand anything, you don't want to take the discussion and think about it, fine. But don't put words in my mouth and treat as if i am just a Fedora fanboy or "just want a rolling release hurr durr".

Mint is Good for you the way it is? Fine, more power too you.

Now that we have burn the straw man, let's get down to business.

Forget Fedora as a distribution i am not talking about any of that stuff, just take a look at the points on Fedora: Simplified installation process, Uniform UI, first time boot, more care with the boot sequence visuals. Things like these that will impact the end user, don't put rolling release, direction of Fedora distro and any of that stuff in my mouth, if you don't like my point at least respect the space for those who want to consider the perspective, ok?

I want to discuss this and if possible pass it on directly to the developers because I really bought the idea, I really think it will positively impact users and that is my goal. I am not telling anyone to switch to rolling release, development for developers, nothing like that. Just the user experience with the visuals and how the system feels. I even said: I hate gnome! But i can still see a job well done there, the work to make it uniform is visible and I think it would be interesting if Mint had it too. That's it.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by MrEen »

dentiuro wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:10 pm
From people taking 3 words from Fedora website to not even watching the video it's very hard to have a grounded conversation
What video? I scanned through every post of this thread trying to find a video but came up empty.

And may I ask, what isn't simple about Mint's installer?
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by MartyMint »

dentiuro wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:10 pm

I've tried to be as clear as possible, but you can't show something for those who don't want to see.
At this point, you're just being rude. Troll on if your heart desires...I'm done here.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by dentiuro »

MartyMint wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:53 am
Moem wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:39 am
So what is the actual suggestion or new idea for Mint that you are presenting?
I think it's something like:

"I want a bleeding-edge rolling release because software that is 4 weeks old is old and yucky and if Microsoft has taught us anything it's that if software is older than the milk in my refridgerator, it's probably broken and vulnerable...and I don't mind that my distro uses me as a guinea pig because re-installing Linux is fun! Wheeee!!!!"

....or something like that.
Yeah... I am the rude one here... Of course... None of the things I said did you have the humility to consider and answer the point instead of making 1001 strawman of what was said. Your first response to this post shows who the troll is here.
MrEen wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:18 pm
dentiuro wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:10 pm
From people taking 3 words from Fedora website to not even watching the video it's very hard to have a grounded conversation
What video? I scanned through every post of this thread trying to find a video but came up empty.

And may I ask, what isn't simple about Mint's installer?
Again, I am not trying to denigrate Mint, I did not say that Mint is bad, I said that the way that Fedora presents these things to the end user is enviable.

In some past answers, I recommended everyone to see Fedora 33, either on a virtual machine or in an installation video. It is not that the process of installing Mint is not simple and effective, it is that I really think there is room for improvement if these concepts were followed.

Edit: I understand that different distributions have different focuses, but what I saw in the installation of Fedora (either by vm or video) is like the grub system selection screen that today mint, manjaro and other distributions have. It's something that I saw and thought: It would be great if all distributions had their version of this.

If someone does not find comfortable what I bring here, fine, do what you think best of your time, but if someone is open to discussing how much it would change and what it would imply, I am truly interested in listening. One of the comments explained the importance of creating an account in the installation process, ok, I can understand, but other than that, what about the rest?

It is obviously unproductive and exhausting to argue with someone about viable changes on Mint based on Fedora if someone has no interest in opening the system and testing the points I made about the system.

Btw: just to show that i am not the only one realizing this: https://youtu.be/FYKWfwqFbyk?t=537

"...The truth is that Linux Mint has been falling into this type of contradiction for a long time..."

The system obviously has an inconsistent look, does anyone here dispute this? Really? I don't want to be a troll but open 3 programs in Mint and chances are the top bar will have a completely different design.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by DAMIEN1307 »

Let me make this post very short, and very clear...YOU said,
From people taking 3 words from Fedora website to not even watching the video it's very hard to have a grounded conversation, i didn't want this to be a gorrila like pounding chest oh my gosh....
Where is that "bright blue and shiney", URL posted in these postings to click on and show us the video you keep referring to?????????????????????????.

We cant watch what isnt here...If your just trolling, cut it out now...folks here do not put up with it...If you have an actual video to see, then post its URL on your next response for the whole world to see what the heck your rambling about...not that foreign language one you just posted that most of us do not understand...and for those that DO understand, they probably will not go 37.14 minutes of viewing displeasure to flesh it out...im outta here...DAMIEN
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by dentiuro »

DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:06 pm
Let me make this post very short, and very clear...YOU said,
From people taking 3 words from Fedora website to not even watching the video it's very hard to have a grounded conversation, i didn't want this to be a gorrila like pounding chest oh my gosh....
Where is that "bright blue and shiney", URL posted in these postings to click on and show us the video you keep referring to?????????????????????????.

We cant watch what isnt here...If your just trolling, cut it out now...folks here do not put up with it...If you have an actual video to see, then post its URL on your next response for the whole world to see what the heck your rambling about...not that foreign language one you just posted that most of us do not understand...im outta here...DAMIEN
Yes, take a comment from someone who was misrepresenting my point and fight it. Very productive.
dentiuro wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:00 pm
Moem wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:57 pm
dentiuro wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:53 pm
You guys are delivering Linux Mint with Cinnamon
I'm not delivering any such thing. Again, you are on a user forum and talking to other users here.
I'm trying to demonstrate to the community as a whole, what's coming out of the oven, what we're getting, what came out of the Linux Mint scene that's the reason I used that term

did you get to see any video of the installation process i'm talking about? the first boot screen?

If you read all the posts I said to run fedora 33 or AT LEAST watch a fedora 33 video. Look at what I said about the visual consistency of the system. If no one is going to run fedora or even see a single damn video or image of the system there is no material for discussion.

But the funny thing is that just while I was reading your answer a notification came from Diolinux channel: https://youtu.be/45cC0r52YE0

There is no video I posted before! I just asked them to at least watch a video or run Fedora on a virtual machine. Go see it, see visual consistency, without that there is no way to understand my point, there is no discussion. I'm not a troll if nobody wants to read all the posts and doesn't want to see Fedora in a discussion involving Fedora!
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by antikythera »

Both Mint and Fedora have their merits, more importantly everyone is free to use what the heck they like and the ethos of both user community forums is to encourage this. If people don't agree to your opinion, don't lose any sleep over it. Always remember that opinions are like arseholes, everybody has them.

Yes their installer (anaconda - love the codename) is better than Ubiquity but quite frankly what isn't? Even Calamares can be when configured properly.

Anaconda has been around since Noah loaded the ark and had a team of RH engineers developing it in-house.

My favourite installer is actually SUSE's though and I consider OpenSUSE GNOME just as polished a uniform user experience (and Ubuntu is not far off).

Cinnamon, MATE and XFCE suffer a little from an inherent lack of uniformity sometimes because they are deliberate attempts at making both GTK and Qt applications appear more recognisable to people used to other commercial operating systems. Using pure GNOME you don't see that so much because menus for GTK applications are integrated into the top panel and those applications supporting that feature don't usually have title bars displayed either.

SUSE's YaST is also the result of decades of development. They have used btrfs far longer than Fedora too for the root partition and integrated it into YaST* with which you can easily manage btrfs snapshots.

*YaST is not just the installer, it's also a comprehensive system configuration and management tool.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by Kadaitcha Man »

dentiuro wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:45 pm
If someone does not find comfortable what I bring here, fine, do what you think best of your time
Let me point you to a number of glaringly obvious salient points that you appear to be ignorant of.

Salient point 1) This is a user forum, staffed by users of Linux Mint in order to provide help to others users of Linux Mint.

The implication of salient point 1 is that there are no developers here, that your are preaching to the wrong audience.

Salient point 2) At the top of this page, in red, which cannot be missed, it says, in part, "Forum rules ... So that developers and users from any distribution can discuss ideas in one place, post ideas about improving software to the collaboration website for that software instead."

The implication of salient point 2 is that not only are you barking up the wrong tree, you are not even in the right paddock.

Salient point 3) Linux Mint is open source. Instead of barking up the wrong trees in the wrong paddocks, volunteer your time to the Linux Mint team and make the difference yourself.

The implication of salient point 3 is that it is up to you to go out into the world and do something about the changes you desire.

The implication of all of those salient points being set aside is that you want someone to do it all for you, and for free. Well, the world doesn't work that way.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by DAMIEN1307 »

The implication of all of those salient points being set aside is that you want someone to do it all for you, and for free. Well, the world doesn't work that way.
Loving it :twisted:
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by Kadaitcha Man »

DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:20 pm
The implication of all of those salient points being set aside is that you want someone to do it all for you, and for free. Well, the world doesn't work that way.
Loving it :twisted:
It cheeses me off significantly when people who are using a free-beer operating system expect someone else to put in all the heavy lifting for free. Really, I do not for one moment believe that any of us have a right to ask for any kind of change without at least providing something back, such as a financial donation for example, with the exception to that being the need to ask for change due to some bug.
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by DAMIEN1307 »

It cheeses me off significantly when people who are using a free-beer operating system expect someone else to put in all the heavy lifting for free. Really, I do not for one moment believe that any of us have a right to ask for any kind of change without at least providing something back, such as a financial donation for example, with the exception to that being the need to ask for change due to some bug.
Im in the "whole hearted agreement" camp here...lol...Your preaching to the choir...lol...DAMIEN
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Re: Fedora 33 Installation (please hear me out)

Post by MrEen »

I tried to watch the video, but it didn't do much for me. Language was certainly a contributing factor. I assume that was Mint being shown, but I'm not even positive of that, and I gave up within about a minute.

So I tried to do a little searching, and found this:
6. Enable Minimize, Maximize buttons
Open the GNOME Tweak tool and go to Window Titlebars. Enable the Maximize and Minimize buttons.

Again, I am not sure what is the use case behind this. It should be enabled by default.
Really? So new users won't even know how to minimize and maximize windows. I suspect that might be more important to them than the overall consistency between apps (an issue I don't suffer from, so not quite sure what that's all about.)

I'm sorry but I just can't get on board with this. And please do realize that some of what you're talking about comes from Ubuntu. And as antikythera pointed out, some spins of Fedora itself don't even live up to what you're talking about.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't even understand this point from early on:
When I put Nemo to organize the files in alphabetical order it organizes something like this: File.A.Part2, File.A.Part3, File.A.Part4, File.A... Why?
Looks alphabetized to me. Did you expect 4 to come before 2 and 3 because 4 spelled out starts with an f?

Anyway, I did my best to try to understand, but I think I shall take my leave now.
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