Pulseaudio vs ALSA

[FeralUrchin]

It is well-known now that pulseaudio breaks ALSA apps (in my case a video editor by screwing up the timing of the audio stream). It is also well-known that we who use ALSA used to be able to prevent pulseaudio from running by setting autospawn=no in /etc/pulse/client.conf, and that we can no longer prevent pulseaudio from being started at boot time--except, of course, by using illicit and user-unfriendly means such as deleting usr/bin/pulseaudio and the like.

Judging from the number of posts in this forum by people having audio problems, I think the time is ripe for overhauling audio support in Mint. I'd suggest the following as starting points: 1) assume that ALSA has been around a long time and apps will continue to be written using it; breaking existing and new ALSA apps is disallowed. 2) those who wish to use pulseaudio functionality should be provided it on an app-by-app basis for those apps that specifically request it--not by a server that acts on everybody's audio stream whether they request it or not. Perhaps pulseaudio functionality should be provided through libraries rather than a server or there should be a special API that can be used to connect to the server for those apps that want pulseaudio. 3) I think it's time that the Mint sound configuration tool be updated to control whether pulseaudio is to be loaded and used, and if so, by what apps.

I have no idea who decided to include pulseaudio in Mint or why. Nevertheless I feel that to Mint users, Mint owns this problem. If I'm not mistaken, we ALSA users want the problem taking seriously and fixed. Some developer or distro manager should accept responsibility for an actual fix, not just for providing palliative care to users with broken ALSA apps.

Will Mint step up?

[Schultz]

I have no idea who decided to include pulseaudio in Mint or why. Nevertheless I feel that to Mint users, Mint owns this problem. If I'm not mistaken, we ALSA users want the problem taking seriously and fixed. Some developer or distro manager should accept responsibility for an actual fix, not just for providing palliative care to users with broken ALSA apps.

Will Mint step up?

Since Mint is based on Ubuntu, I think you need to ask Ubuntu. I feel your pain, but I'm on an OS that doesn't use it, though.

[rene]

Poster is literally 10 years behind the times and at the incorrect distribution indeed. PulseAudio is slated to be replaced by Pipewire at which point we'll see a group of mysteriously about the exact same size as naked-ALSA proponents now embrace PulseAudio as the best thing that's ever been for the then next decade. As to when and how this will be he/she needs to go ask the right distribution indeed; Linux Mint was never involved in its base-distribution's decision to adopt PulseAudio 10 years ago and will not be in said base distribution's decision to switch to Pipewire.

[FeralUrchin]

Thanks for the response. Not sure if you're saying I'm ten years behind the times. Indeed I began developing my video editor around ten years ago. However, as I see matters, as long as ALSA is distributed and installed by default, I and others who use it have a perfect right to continuing to do so, and to expect that any other introduced software will not break our apps.

In my ethical world, anyone releasing a distro owns problems encountered by its users--if only to advocate on users' behalf to whomever introduced the problem.

I hold the PulseAudio team, and whomever decided that it should be installed in Mint by default, as responsible for the chaos that now reigns here in audio support. These people knowingly and willingly broke existing ALSA apps, and now require us to take radical steps to get rid of PulseAudio in order to continue running them.. Again in my ethical world, such action by a distro team is unforgivable. As long as ALSA is officially included in distros, PulseAudio should only be installed by user request, and should make whatever functionality it offers available on an app-by-app basis to whatever apps specifically request it. This situation clearly illustrates the indiscipline and unprofessionalism in the Linux world that hampers its wider adoption.

Since Mint is derived from Ubuntu, I'm guessing that you also do not recommend its use. I would very much appreciate knowing what distro(s) you recommend as future-safe for audio hardware support. Thanks again for your helpful response.

[rene]

I am indeed saying you are ten years behind the times. Imagine starting a PulseAudio vs. ALSA thread ten years after the fact and at the point that PulseAudio is just about to retire naturally already...

"Chaos" does not reign here or anywhere else "in audio support" and most decidedly not at the level of PulseAudio. PulseAudio blows chunks as to e.g. latency and as to its general opacity but by and large Just Works since quite a few years now for the use-case of a general desktop distribution such as Ubuntu or Mint. Almost each and every current problem with desktop audio concerns undocumented bit-twiddling as to enabling e.g. quadrophonic speaker setups in modern laptops, a few codec power-management issues, a smattering of codec sample-rate issues. Of hardware hence ALSA-level issues which can at most be said to be triggered from PulseAudio; clearly unsurprising with PulseAudio the practically only direct user of ALSA left on a standard system. As a (more or less so) PulseAudio-level issue there's really only the hotplug/ordering issue, particularly involving HDMI/DP.

ALSA exists in all ways it existed ten years ago; the default ALSA device transparently relays to PulseAudio and/but you can pick any direct ALSA device you want at which point PulseAudio is nowhere to be seen. I had 20 minutes to spare so thought I'd respond but in my "ethical world" developers of video editors are not as your above message reads unaware even of how things layer: "as long as ALSA is officially included"? Yah, it better be because can assure you you'd not have audio without it. As such you are and always were perfectly free to not use PulseAudio but ALSA directly, and if you have some seemingly to you specific issue doing such you'd go work on that rather than on dredging up a holy war that's literally ten years out of date and at most a few years from being N/A at all.

Otherwise out of here. You can supposedly open a support thread in whatever subforum for whatever actual issue you think to be experiencing in practice.

[FeralUrchin]

Your response is interesting but mainly off-topic. You seem instead to have taken my posts as an oppurtunity to make ad hominem remarks and to launch a rant. And you ignored my central concern: PulseAudio breaks ALSA apps. It did so ten years ago and continues to do so today.

For all these years (and the number of them is irrelevant) we ALSA users and developers used to be able to keep PulseAudio out of our hair by setting autospawn=no in /etc/pulse/client.conf. Mint 20.2 breaks this feature and now runs PulseAudio unconditionally beginning at boot time. As far as I have been able to determine, the only workaround is to delete /usr/bin/pulseaudio or something similarly illicit.

If you think that was an acceptable change for Mint to make, try your reasonong on someone else. But, hey, thanks for the drive-by.

[rene]

PulseAudio breaks ALSA apps.

No it doesn't. I told you ALSA apps get to just not use Pulseadio when they don't want to as a matter of using an ALSA rather than Pulseaudio device.

You haven't a clue. Best of luck.