"The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday night"

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bodo.gabor
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"The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday night"

Post by bodo.gabor »

The installation started pretty straightforward. Download the image by torrent and burn. Put it into the CD-ROM and reboot. Boots pretty well from the CD, starts the Live CD. I can do whatever I want, I am happy. I became a little bit sad when warned me, that the hard drive of my laptop has a lot of bad sectors and will fail. But, don't shoot the messenger. It also warned me, that there are two drivers for my wireless card, one proprietary and one freeware. I decided to use the proprietary, it doesn't really matter as long as it works. It installed and I had internet in no time. I am happy.
I decided to start the installation, around 10 a clock PM. It was pretty straightforward until the partitioning part (the second step) where I got lost. I did not understand much from the choices, only to not choose the second one "to erase everything from the hard drive", so I chose the first option. A warning that it has to write the changes on the drive, I said whatever. But on the next step I realized that the installer chose my 1.5 TB external hard to be the destination and modified the already existing partition there to ~700GB and created for himself another ~800GB. Damn … I don't want that, so... back button. I realized that it is better if I decide what to do exactly, I chose the third option. If you start playing around these options you will get annoyed pretty quickly because it works very slowly. After a few clicks and a half an hour I decided to not mess up my partitions and to install it in a USB pen-drive. I inserted a long time not used 2GB one. When I started the install it warned me, that the available space is not enough, I said continue, and it continued. I was happy. I was watching the television for an hour when a pop-up window came at 75% of the progress bar that the installation cannot be continued because there are not free space available. I was sad. Why did it continue in this case? I removed the USB stick and a miracle happened, the Linux froze. I was sad. Reboot. Start over again. At this time I decided to modify the partition on the main hard of the laptop. 10GB should be enough, I allocated 2 for swap, and 8 for the file system. Now the installation finished in 10 minutes. Great. Take out the CD and reboot. I was happy. When it restarted Mint lauded with his very ugly, annoying and loud welcome sound. It was around 00:30 AM and my sleeping girlfriend near me wasn’t happy about that. Now again came the warning with the hard and the driver for the wireless card. I chose again the proprietary driver. It tries to DOWNLOAD and install it. But fails of course , because I have internet only through wireless. What the hack? First time it worked like charm from the CD and now wants to install from the internet. In the warning message included the package he can't download, so I looked for it on the CD and installed. But it did not work. I am sad. It seems that if I want wireless internet, first I have to have wired internet. Disconnect the laptop from all the cables, walk to the router and connect to the wire. My girlfriend is not happy. I am sad. After I connected to the wire, the driver installation for the wireless worked perfectly. Walking back, reconnecting all the cables. Girlfriend snorting peacefully near me. A warning that there are updates to be installed. Ok, do it… and … 220 updates… my God, I just downloaded the software 4 hours ago and there are already 220 updates??? Whatever, do it. 10-15 minutes. Everything up to date at 2 o'clock AM. I can start to work. The installation of PostgreSQL and other stuff held other challenges but this is not the Mints fault. Anyway, 4 hours for a linux installation for a newbie seems to me to much.

My recommendation:
- Solve the Wireless driver issue, first time it worked, than I couldn't solve it, most probably it is possible, but it should work as easy as the first time did
- If the space is to small for the installation, than do not start the installation
- Give some estimation to the user, how much time will the installation take, based on the hard speed and stuff to be installed
- Make the partition tool more understandable and more self-explicatory, I was lost for the first three times
- Change the starting song to something more peaceful

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ibm450
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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by ibm450 »

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: good and humours read, cheers needed abit of a chuckle...

about the updates, i have to agree that i find that the enormous updates is abit too much at first fresh install of mint/ubuntu.

wouldn't it be nice if some one could develop or compile a all in one service pack, like win for example, and possibly name the service packs as: M8SP1, M8SP2 etc etc (mint 8 service pack 1) and now that mint 9 is around the corner, why not compile a M9SP1 with all the necessary updates at that point of time and possibly have it on a live DVD (mint and svc packs and extra apps-although ive been reading about making live dvd's for almost 1 year and nothing has been eventuated).

i would love to contribute to the dev of deb files but im not near enough ready to completely understand the plumbing's of linux coding to make or contribute, where as its pretty easy to do in a win environment.

BTW, are there any leaks on how M9 will look like?
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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by BrianD »

ibm450 wrote:about the updates, i have to agree that i find that the enormous updates is abit too much at first fresh install of mint/ubuntu.
y'know, this is not the first time I've heard somebody mention (or complain) about this.

You do realize that, even though you just downloaded the CD or DVD image moments ago, that the image was created nearly 6 months ago, right? ...and that all the applications, utilities, and operating system stuff on the disk is guaranteed to be at least 6 months old??

The fact that there were a couple hundred updates should be a consoling factor -- it lets you know that everything hasn't been stagnant in the distribution (or any of the auxillary applications) for the past 6 months or so. :D
need I say more??

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ibm450
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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by ibm450 »

service packs be nice....
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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by bodo.gabor »

As you saw, I did not write to the recommendation part to create less updates :) It was simply surprising. I think this updating stuff works well, in 15 minutes I had an up-to-date system. There were other small but annoying problems.

Just an idea: why can't the user select the components before downloading the cd? It would be great to make the shopping at the beginning, than create the CD especially for the user, than the download may begin... I don't understand why do I need so many stuff on my new Linux? For example I use gmail, I don't need thunderbird and so on ...

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Carl
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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by Carl »

ibm450 wrote:service packs be nice....
+1 for this idea would be pretty cool if you could download a deb file of all the updates
Last edited by Carl on Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by BrianD »

bodo.gabor wrote:Just an idea: why can't the user select the components before downloading the cd? It would be great to make the shopping at the beginning, than create the CD especially for the user, than the download may begin... I don't understand why do I need so many stuff on my new Linux? For example I use gmail, I don't need thunderbird and so on ...
While I understand the purpose behind this suggestion, let me offer that, sometimes, the user doesn't know what they do or do not want. I think Linux Mint makes a decent set of initial applications, given the restrictions of the number of applications you can include on limited (space-wise) installation media. ...and, for the most part, if you don't want a particular application installed on your computer, it's a simple matter to remove it and install an alternative application (or none at all).
need I say more??

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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by BrianD »

Carl wrote:
ibm450 wrote:service packs be nice....
+1 for this idea would be pretty coll [sic] if you could download a deb file of all the updates
...but, how would the update process know what was or wasn't installed on your computer, to include in the .deb file? :wink:
need I say more??

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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by FedoraRefugee »

bodo.gabor wrote:- Solve the Wireless driver issue, first time it worked, than I couldn't solve it, most probably it is possible, but it should work as easy as the first time did
- If the space is to small for the installation, than do not start the installation
- Give some estimation to the user, how much time will the installation take, based on the hard speed and stuff to be installed
- Make the partition tool more understandable and more self-explicatory, I was lost for the first three times
- Change the starting song to something more peaceful
Amusing tale! But if you think about it, most of the problems were user induced. The time was mostly spent backtracking on partitioning options, rectifying mistakes, and the useless USB pen experience.

Point 1 - It seems strange to me that the CD offered the proprietary driver but the install did not! Also, why would the install not use the open source driver? This should be looked into. As a point of reference, my Atheros card works fine with the open source driver.

Point 2 - It told you the space was too small!!! :roll: It is YOUR fault that you did not listen. Traditionally Linux has been about user choice. It will throw up a warning but then allow you to do the operation anyway. Maybe there is a special reason why you would want to do something even though the "distro" deems it is wrong. Personally, I prefer things this way. Please, warn me when something is not right, but then back up out of my way and allow me to do what I want. We learn from experience and need to take responsibility for our own actions.

Point 3 - the actual install takes me UNDER 10 minutes on every computer I own including a (year) 2000 model Dell with a cheap (even back then) Celron proc and 1 GB of RAM. Of course I know what I am doing, but this INCLUDES the manual partitioning option I always choose.

I also want to touch on the updates. It usually takes about 5 minutes to install these, but I do have decent cable broadband access. But in the big scheme of life, is this REALLY that much of an inconvenience? If you have immediate work to do (and you just took the time to do a fresh install? :shock: ) then postpone the updates until you have a few minutes free. Life is short people, Let's not blow things too far out of proportion! Look at the manpower to try and roll "service packs" or, better yet, to just update the ISO. It simply is not worth the bother when the next release will be out in under 6 months.

Point 4 - How so? I do not want to "flame" you or minimize your suggestion, but how would YOU suggest doing this? Easier, and more understandable, is ALWAYS better. But I cannot come up with a way to make the partitioning step any clearer or easier. Like it or not this is the most complicated aspect of the installation, and it will require a basic understanding of how partitioning works. Even if you choose the default "slap Mint on the whole drive" option you should at least have an understanding of what is going on. If you are dual booting...fuggedaboutit...You will need to understand partitioning.

I ALWAYS use the manual option. Even if Mint is the only OS and I am not creating any separate partitions. Fedora (damn its bloody eyes) taught me this because of its default LVM crap. If you did not manually do it Fedora (in its infinite wisdom) blessed you with a logical volume that made life impossible for the home desktop user from there on. I am just a simple man...Anyway, though I will get hundreds of nasty emails and death threats for this comment, if you want to use Linux then you need to be willing and able to LEARN new things. Partitioning is the best place to start. Go ahead, expand your horizons! There really is not much to it, I do not know how it can be laid out any easier than what the Mint installer provides. :D

Point 5 - I never noticed! :lol:
bodo.gabor wrote:Just an idea: why can't the user select the components before downloading the cd? It would be great to make the shopping at the beginning, than create the CD especially for the user, than the download may begin... I don't understand why do I need so many stuff on my new Linux? For example I use gmail, I don't need thunderbird and so on ...
Think about that for a second! Look at all the problems the choices ALREADY presented caused you! What terminal do you want? What image viewer? Browser, file manager, and audio player are easy choices, but how about those hundreds of programs you never even think about? What networking tool do YOU prefer? :?

I agree with you though! I don't often drink beer...But when I do...Oh, wait...I got sidetracked. Time for my meds. I agree that the best Linux system is one that is built from the ground up. That is why I use Arch Linux on my personal installs. It will do exactly what you want. You dont build the ISO, rather you do a basic text install then add on whatever you want. From the ground up. Best of all, there is GREAT documentation to walk you through this. They give you the options, you make the choice. This is actually more taxing then you may think, you will want to build a cohesive system that makes sense.

But you are having problems with the Mint partitioner! In order to tackle Arch you will have to come to terms with the fact that it is all manual, it will not do your thinking for you! I want to note right now, in order to cut down on the death threats and bricks thrown through my windows, that I am not being elitist or questioning ANYONE's intelligence. My 8 year old uses Linux, and probably knows more about it than 70-75% of the people in this forum. And he is NOT the sharpest knife in the drawer! :lol: No, it is not a question of intelligence, merely WILLINGNESS! Most people simply do not care. They do not WANT to take the time to learn, to dig through millions of meaningless options, to spend hours installing an OS just to get on facebook or tweet or bark or hoot someone... :roll:

These folks are better off with someone like Clem, Merlwiz, or Kendal (sorry if I missed someone, the KDE guy maybe?) making educated decisions as to what the best system for your buck is. Recently Merlwiz decided to go with NetworkManager over WICD of the Xfce spin. I do not like this! I prefer WICD. But his reasons are sound and I accept it. Hey, as long as it works. And if it doesn't then I uninstall NWM and install WICD. I have found through experience that it is usually best not to tinker with uninstalling default apps in most distros. It can cause more problems than it is worth. Anyway...Let them build the best system. Most folks will stumble through the install and learn to use things just enough to accomplish their tasks. A few will roll up their sleeves and dig in. They will install other apps and explore their choices. They will make up their own minds on what apps they prefer. For me K3b is well worth the few extra deps it pulls in, as is gedit. Otherwise I prefer to stay away from Gnome and KDE apps. You learn these preferences as you go along. But to ask a noob who has no clue what a Gnome is to make these choices?...

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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by bodo.gabor »

I am sad :(

I know that I am beginner and I am not the sharpest person ever.... But, trust me, on the world there are more like me, than bright and curious linux gurus. I know that I made mistakes, but I expect from the OS to be foolproof. Actually every software should be foolproof. I was a stupid to press continue after the warning, but I did not realize the consequences. And this was only one of the problems.

The installation takes for you 5-10 minutes, woaw, I am so happy about you :) ... for me it took 4 hours. For me it was a bad experience and as long the problem the user, linux can never enjoy a broader usage. A standard computer user, like me, will gladly pay 150$ just to not feel himself stupid. A standard user wants to feel that working with a computer is easy. And I would like to underline the standard word in my previous sentence.

I don't know how to make it more understandable the partitioning tool. Maybe with some graphics, explications etc. I am not a GUI expert. If none of you does, ask an expert. I just pointed out a problem.

So: Linux people! Be more open minded, accept that not everyone is curious and/or sharp like you. Make this system easy to use even for a monkey! Make it foolproof, straightforward, compatible, easy etc. :)

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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by vincent »

Well, you do have to factor in the fact that Mint is already one of the most user-friendly distributions that exist today. I mean, burn a couple more Live CDs, try out a few other commonly known distros, and you'll see that Mint is already extremely intuitive and easy-to-use.

You're right though, the standard user doesn't have the time and isn't going to bother with a Linux distro that doesn't work on first run, like Windows does; after all, time is money, and coughing up $200 bucks or so may sound like a better deal than spending many sleepless nights trying hopelessly to iron out some issues here and there. Unfortunately though, there's not all that much that can be done...first off, most problems with Linux are caused by hardware incompatibilities. Solving these types of problems is never going to be easy and idiot-proof. Secondly, some tools are just complicated due to their nature. Partitioning is a complex topic, and there are a wide range of factors and choices to consider; every user is going to have different needs, so there is no one-solution-fits-all scenario here. GParted aims to be intuitive while at the same time not cutting back on functionality, and that's a balance that's hard to achieve, yet I think they've got it more or less. "I don't know how to make it more understandable the partitioning tool. Maybe with some graphics, explications etc." I don't know either, unfortunately. If you want some explications, do a bit of Googling before you partition again next time. There are some excellent partitioning guides out there, but the standard user won't have the patience to RTFM every time something they don't understand pops up.

Look on the bright side; it could be worse. The Ubiquity installer and Gparted partitioning tool are much more easier to use than most other installers in other distros. Go try out a text-based installation in Arch Linux and I bet you'll come back singing praises for Ubiquity. :P

Everything may be hard and difficult at first, but really, that's to be expected. You are learning to use a radically different operating system here, and you'll have a lot of learning to do before you settle comfortably into the Linux world.
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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by ibm450 »

BrianD wrote:
Carl wrote:
ibm450 wrote:service packs be nice....
+1 for this idea would be pretty coll [sic] if you could download a deb file of all the updates
...but, how would the update process know what was or wasn't installed on your computer, to include in the .deb file? :wink:
well, wouldnt it be like the mint update? run the XML file to see whats installed and whats current and decide what to update???

pretty easy to do in windows via scripts -- but havnt the foggiest idea for linux.....

i reckon if there where service packs for linux, it would look so much more appealing for new users

just imagine, you download a live cd, and obviously its about "X" amount of months behind in updates. Next you are provided with links to the latest service pack (DEB file (M9SP1)) with updates....

then the user would have the option to download the latest service pack for future OFFLINE install, very musch like in for windows...now wouldnt that be alot more attractive and give a more polished feel to the distro the user downloads???

i mean, i have XP, and have all the service packs that came out for it. every time a new service pack comes out, i would seem that service pack into the next xp install cd, which dramatically REDUCED the overall updates required for the future new/fresh install and hench REDUCING the amount of download and the long slow download of 200+ updates...and yes, linux is starting to become like windows with the SO many updates required on each new release. also this would aid for those who have dial up or wireless networks where they can either grab the latest service pack from joe blog or download the latest service pack at that given time and do fresh install at their own leisure when things go pair shaped.... 8) and im talking from experience as i have wireless at work and if i stuff up my install by experimenting, i have to wait like 2 weeks later, to reupdate my mint....rather i be alot happier to grab the latest service pack and install it offline .... i know that theres remastersys, but thats another story....
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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by Robin »

Most of us newbies are coming from Windows, and we act upon suppositions based on our experience. We expect a fully automated, seamless, effortless, basically mindless installation because that is all we have ever known! We simply weren't aware that there was any other way out there. All we know is, you pop in a CD and it automagically does everything it's supposed to do.

That's where I made all my mistakes when I started with Linux. I didn't know the difference between a data CD and an image, so my downloaded disks wouldn't boot and I "blamed Linux" for "being too geeky." Omygosh, I'm so embarrassed to admit this now, lol. My other silliness was not booting from the CD. I popped it in there and waited for it to "auto-run." Because that's all I had ever known a CD to do. "Boot? That's some geeky somethingorother I can't be bothered with."

Okay, so I can blame my silliness on youth, or autism, but it was really a combination of laziness, and unwillingness to read the directions and get a clue before jumping into unfamiliar water. Mint has made Linux so easy that even a silly little Robin can get it right, as long as one takes the time to "read the directions." But before we beat up too much on silly kids like Robin or folks like Bodo.Gabor who proceed from false assumptions, just bear in mind - we really don't know any other way at first. Here's what I think would be really cool for silly Robins and Bodos:

Some kind of message that can be displayed on the screen when one of us newbies just pops in the Mint CD and waits for it to "auto-start." The message can explain about the boot-from-CD-ROM option. Something like,
This is a LiveCD. It doesn't "auto-run" like in Windows. Leave the CD in place and restart your machine. Look for "boot options" during the start-up (usually displayed briefly on the screen with your computer's manufacturer's name), quickly enter the Boot Options menu, and select the CD-ROM as first-boot device. Linux is not Windows! Don't assume anything - and have fun!
I dunno if something like that is practical or if it would take up too much space on a LiveCD. Or even if it is worth the trouble, since Mint has already done everything possible to make this as simple as possible, and can hardly be expected to compensate for some silly kid's laziness and lack of common sense. But maybe the rest of you can have a little sympathy for newbies if you understand that mindless, do-it-all-automagically stuff is all some of us have ever known. Perhaps it's easier to identify with a person who has only known an automatic transmission on a car, being confronted with a gearshift handle and clutch for the first time, without any prior knowledge of it. "OMG! What's this?!?" Sure it's funny to you stick drivers. And it's okay to laugh (to yourself, please). But don't scold a newbie too harshly when (s)he has only known automatic cars that you just hop in and tell it where to go. It won't be long before we newbies will be laughing at ourselves for all of our assumptions and silly choices. Like Bodo and me now. And maybe some of you guys, too. Remember the newbish assumptions you brought with you all those years ago - and chuckle at yourself before you hit the Reply button and rebuke even a willfully foolish Robin or Bodo. You just might provide the look in the mirror that we need to get our act together.

On behalf of silly newbies everywhere,
Robin

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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by Fred »

bodo.gabor wrote:
It installed and I had internet in no time. I am happy.
I decided to start the installation, around 10 a clock PM.
Let's see. You knew nothing about Linux, partitioning, booting (dual or otherwise), and little if anything about hardware drivers or the ones you might need. Then you started off tired at the end of the day. Actually, I am surprised you ever got it to work at all. Congratulations to you and the Mint installer! :-)

In the first place, an install should only take 30 to 40 min. on even old, slow equipment. I would have stopped the install and rechecked and re-burned the cd, slow and in a RAW mode. But of course you couldn't be expected to know this as a new user that hadn't done his homework.

If you expect to install any OS from scratch you need to do your homework and learn at least a few basics before you can really expect to have immediate success. There is plenty of information and how-tos out there. You just have to take the initiative to seek it out and learn it.

If this isn't in your DNA, for whatever reason, then you have to do it the Windows way. Pay someone else to do it for you. If you think Linux Mint is a pain to install and update, try installing two different versions of generic Windows and software, with updates, on random equipment set-up for dual boot. You are in for an experience. Most pay Dell, HP, Sony, BestBuy, etc. to make all the decisions and do the work for them. Why would you expect that installing and updating Linux Mint would be so dirt simple that no prior knowledge would be necessary?

I am just trying to keep things in perspective . :-)


@Robin

Good post. :-)

+1

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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by Robin »

Thanks Fred! :D

I just want to add one more thing. I don't want anything I've said to contribute to the erroneous idea that Linux Mint is strictly a newbie's distro. I have heard Mint (and Ubuntu, Mepis, PCLinuxOS, and others) described as "Linux with training wheels," as if to suggest that only novices use it, while veteran Linux users "graduate" to "better, more advanced" distros, or that Linux veterans ought to be ashamed of themselves for using Mint instead of Gentoo, Arch, or Linux-From-Scratch! This is WRONG!

A lot of very super-techno-geeky Linux wizards use Mint because it's exactly what they want their Linux to be. And because it is easy to share with their family and friends (even kids). And for a host of other reasons. Even when you "take the training wheels off," it's still Linux Mint! And it's no less awesome just because their kids can use it as easily as the most advanced Linux Certified Engineer can.

The participation of the many super-techno-wizards in Mint's development, testing, and support (like in this forum!) is the reason Mint is so easy and so fun. Not just for newbies - but for all of us!

Unashamedly,
Robin

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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by FedoraRefugee »

bodo.gabor wrote:I am sad :(

I know that I am beginner and I am not the sharpest person ever.... But, trust me, on the world there are more like me, than bright and curious linux gurus. I know that I made mistakes, but I expect from the OS to be foolproof. Actually every software should be foolproof. I was a stupid to press continue after the warning, but I did not realize the consequences. And this was only one of the problems.

The installation takes for you 5-10 minutes, woaw, I am so happy about you :) ... for me it took 4 hours. For me it was a bad experience and as long the problem the user, linux can never enjoy a broader usage. A standard computer user, like me, will gladly pay 150$ just to not feel himself stupid. A standard user wants to feel that working with a computer is easy. And I would like to underline the standard word in my previous sentence.
Save the sob story! :twisted: Every software is not foolproof, driving a car is not foolproof, walking from point A to point B in any major city in the world is not foolproof, life is NOT foolproof. Fools get ate alive everywhere you look. QUIT BEING A FOOL! :wink: When someone takes the time to provide you a warning then HEED IT! You WERE stupid to press continue after the warning, your wasted time was your fault. Accept it. Learn from it! We all, and I mean each and every one of us, make stupid mistakes on a daily basis. You learn and grow from your mistakes...If you survive them. :D

The install took you 4 hours due to YOUR mistakes. Linux ALREADY enjoys a broad enough usage. In fact, up until a few years ago Linux had a good way of weeding out all the fools! :D I miss that. :cry: Not that I do not think that Linux should be as easy as possible, it is just that some people just cannot be helped or satisfied. That is just the way it is. If you think paying $150 or more for Windows or some other OS is going to help you not feel stupid then you had better think again!
I don't know how to make it more understandable the partitioning tool. Maybe with some graphics, explications etc. I am not a GUI expert. If none of you does, ask an expert. I just pointed out a problem.

So: Linux people! Be more open minded, accept that not everyone is curious and/or sharp like you. Make this system easy to use even for a monkey! Make it foolproof, straightforward, compatible, easy etc. :)
Now that I did the attitude adjustment part of the rant I can get right to the point. Fred mentions it and it was the first thing I thought when I read your post. You should try installing generic Windows on your hardware of choice. I have news for you friend, it is MUCH harder than Mint is to install!!! Linux packages most of the drivers you need with the kernel. Windows does NOT! You think wifi was a hassle in Mint? :shock: Try it with Windows! You will have to figure out WHICH wifi chip you have and go to either the manufacturers website, or the laptop manufacturers website, wade through that navigation to find the actual package you need, download it, find it on your computer, then execute it and pray that it actually works. Chances are good it really wasn't the exact package you needed, it won't work, and you will need to find the actual package and start over. You think I am exaggerating?

And that my friend is just ONE SINGLE piece of hardware. Now do the same with your webcam, media bar, lightscribe, and whatever exotic hardware you may enjoy. That is just the start. Now it is time for updates. You think Linux updates are bad?

I have news for you sad boy; Mint IS easy for even a monkey! :lol: It is as foolproof, straight-forward, compatible, and easy as it gets. There is no other OS on earth as easy to install as Linux Mint. It is the pre-school of OS installations. If you are not curious or sharp enough to do THIS then you need to just go to Walmart or Best Buy or wherever and pick an off the shelf computer with Windows pre-loaded and take it home and screw it up. Then take it to "the man" so he can charge you another $150 to reinstall the OS. Repeat every six months...Life is not idiot-proof my friend. :D

FedoraRefugee
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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Robin wrote:Okay, so I can blame my silliness on youth, or autism, but it was really a combination of laziness, and unwillingness to read the directions and get a clue before jumping into unfamiliar water. Mint has made Linux so easy that even a silly little Robin can get it right, as long as one takes the time to "read the directions." But before we beat up too much on silly kids like Robin or folks like Bodo.Gabor who proceed from false assumptions, just bear in mind - we really don't know any other way at first. Here's what I think would be really cool for silly Robins and Bodos:
We should NEVER beat up on lack of understanding. Your two incidents are classic Robin. :lol: You will always remember that experience and look back on it and laugh. With me it was not understanding package management. I literally went MONTHS trying to compile packages with no understanding of Linux and cursing this OS and saying it will never replace Windows because you cant even install a stupid program. I had no clue that all I had to do was open the software manager, I believe Synaptic was my first experience with this, and just check a box!!! This sounds SO stupid to anyone who uses Linux today, bit 10 years ago it was not so obvious that there was a program to install programs. Like you say, we are used to the Windows way where you find the website of the program you want, download it, then click on the executable. Really, I just had no clue. :lol:

But I am not beating up on Bodo.Gabor for his lack of Linux knowledge. I am beating up on him for his attitude! Until he gets over it he will not succeed with linux. He does not recognize that, but he needs to lose the "change Linux to make it better" philosophy and come to grips with the fact that he needs to change himself to use Linux! If you go back and read most of the posts written so far the common theme is "LEARN to use Linux." This will always be the case, no matter how easy they can make this OS. If a person refuses to do this then they are just wasting everyone's time here. They need to just shut up and go back to a pre-installed Windows and stay there. Buy a Mac. Whatever...But don't come here crying that Linux is not ready and that it will never replace Windows! It already HAS! For many of us. For some many years ago! If you are not smart enough to use it blame yourself, not those who are!

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markfiend
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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by markfiend »

FedoraRefugee I think I've seen you post it before, and it's certainly worth posting again:

Linux is not for everybody. :wink:
Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.

BrianD
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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by BrianD »

bodo.gabor wrote:I know that I made mistakes, but I expect from the OS to be foolproof. Actually every software should be foolproof.
Nothing can be made foolproof, because fools are too ingenious, and will find a way around your machinations.

:wink:


as others have pointed out already in this thread, the faults to be corrected are often found in the "newbie user" and not in any particular Linux distro.

Great post, btw, Robin! :D
need I say more??

GhoS
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Re: "The adventure of a Linux Mint installation Wednesday ni

Post by GhoS »

I'm not sure why people are suggesting that Linux should something like Service Packs. Service Packs are simply a bunch of updates in one package. What's the big in downloading individual files rather than one big update. Plus Windows Service Packs make you reboot, Linux won't do that.
Also you are not required to update like in Windows. Usually windows updates are because of security flaws, not due to product improvement like Linux.
One last thing, if you were to install Windows several months after its official release, you would have several updates as well (again mostly security fixes not product improvement). In fact if you were to install Vista now from its original release disk, you'd have several large updates. Its years between Windows releases, verses months for Linux.

Just remember to keep some perspective :)

Btw for others installing Linux brand new, I found it much easier to use the partitioning tool in Windows Vista/7 to create a partition, then Mint easily chose the empty partition for installation. I think the Mint install is by far the easiest to install. It gives you a lot of info about what is going on. Windows I am mostly in the dark if doing an installation (and reboots so much).

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