Fedora is getting rollbacks, can we port this to mint?

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madjr
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Fedora is getting rollbacks, can we port this to mint?

Post by madjr » Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:34 pm

looks like with the Btrfs filesystem, Fedora will become almost indestructible (against noobs, broken packages and upgrades gone bad ). Best of all it's done automagically

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=a ... trfs&num=1

http://linuxers.org/article/some-cool-f ... 13-goddard

broken system should be something of no concern anymore, just rool bak :roll:

once fedora has this totally ready, how long till we can get/port this to mint?

support requests and unusable systems would be reduced by a ton.

testing can be done worry free

this alone would make mint the best out of almost ANY OS

views, opinions, other ideas or ways to implement something similar?
Last edited by madjr on Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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DrHu
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Re: Fedora is getting rollbacks, can we port this to mint?

Post by DrHu » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:18 pm

From the link
Even when passing the btrfs boot parameter you still need to manually modify the partitions to use Btrfs over the EXT4 default. As Btrfs is currently only capable of taking a copy-on-write snapshots of the entire file-system and not select directories, it would be highly recommended that a separate /home partition be created that is using EXT4 or another file-system. If the home data resides on the same partition as your root file-system, when performing any system rollbacks, your home data too will be rolled to the earlier state
...it would be highly recommended that a separate /home partition be created that is using EXT4 or another file-system.
Because of the snapshot method being used
--and then for snapshotting there is always Red Hat's R1 software, which is linked to on the http://www.linuxmint.com website..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Btrfs
http://kerneltrap.org/Linux/Btrfs_0.16_ ... erformance
Yes, it is a new file system for Linux, but it still has to be rolled into the distributions available
--if you can do it on your own, then no problem
--if not, it will likely prove too problematic for most users, unless it comes as part of the file systems management during a distribution's install method.
Last edited by DrHu on Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

madjr
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Re: Fedora is getting rollbacks, can we port this to mint?

Post by madjr » Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:43 pm

DrHu wrote:From the link
Even when passing the btrfs boot parameter you still need to manually modify the partitions to use Btrfs over the EXT4 default. As Btrfs is currently only capable of taking a copy-on-write snapshots of the entire file-system and not select directories, it would be highly recommended that a separate /home partition be created that is using EXT4 or another file-system. If the home data resides on the same partition as your root file-system, when performing any system rollbacks, your home data too will be rolled to the earlier state
...it would be highly recommended that a separate /home partition be created that is using EXT4 or another file-system.
Because of th snapshot method being used
--and then for snapshotting there is always Red Hat's R1 software, which is linked to on the http://www.linuxmint.com website..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Btrfs
http://kerneltrap.org/Linux/Btrfs_0.16_ ... erformance
Yes, it is a new file system for Linux, but it still has to be rolled into the distributions available
--if you can do it on your own, then no problem
--if not, it will likely prove too problematic for most users, unless it comes as part of the file systems management during a distribution's install method.
yea is still in testing phase

but it'll be wonderful and many are going to do the switch to Btrfs

right now i think we can get something going for Ext4 users if we can integrate/sync the new Mint-Backup with Update-manager/apt /synaptic + Grub

am not sure what else, but it should be automatic and fool-proof like Btrfs will be

i would call it: Mint-Rollback

Suhana

Re: Fedora is getting rollbacks, can we port this to mint?

Post by Suhana » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:21 pm

Yes, it's called restoring from a backup.

Having a strong backup policy is paramount these days. Personally I see enough issues daily that could be dealt with a simple restoration but people seem to like to live dangerously. RollBack is simply a snapshot of certain areas, nothing special, nothing "magic". All the tools to do it yourself are already sitting in front of you.

A Rollback itself can also have very serious consequences, if you are not paying attention, and can itself require some substantial backup.restore work to return to whatever status-quo you imagined you had, so relying on them alone is foolish at best.

madjr
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Re: Fedora is getting rollbacks, can we port this to mint?

Post by madjr » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:48 pm

Suhana wrote:Yes, it's called restoring from a backup.

Having a strong backup policy is paramount these days. Personally I see enough issues daily that could be dealt with a simple restoration but people seem to like to live dangerously. RollBack is simply a snapshot of certain areas, nothing special, nothing "magic". All the tools to do it yourself are already sitting in front of you.

A Rollback itself can also have very serious consequences, if you are not paying attention, and can itself require some substantial backup.restore work to return to whatever status-quo you imagined you had, so relying on them alone is foolish at best.
the one being implemented in fedora is not just a snapshot

it's actually done automatically before any package or system update and a snapshot appears as an entry in Grub in case anything happens, making less prone to break which is what the guys at mint are also aiming for.

fully automatic and trivial experience from the start, most wont even know they have this security blanket, but it'll be there

hmm, maybe instead of it called mint-rollback, would be better mint-guardian
Last edited by madjr on Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fedora is getting rollbacks, can we port this to mint?

Post by madjr » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:02 pm

ikey wrote:
Planned to make for a polished system rollback experience is pushing support for choosing Btrfs snapshots to mount via GRUB and the GNOME Disk Utility. This way if something goes wrong during the boot process of the newly installed or upgraded yum packages, the user can simply reboot the system and then choose a different snapshot to boot from the GRUB2 boot-loader. Unfortunately, this did not make the cut for Fedora 13 so users will need to wait until at least Fedora 14.
yea in around a few more months for a grub version, cant wait to try it

but right now it can be done with the commands, so it's not like is not real and can't be tested, it's just good that people get an idea early where things are going
While there isn't yet any graphical support for switching Btrfs snapshots, a different snapshot / sub-volume can be mounted using the subvol mount option, such as mount -o subvol=yum_20100414183435 /dev/sda1 /media/disk. New snapshots can also be created at any point using the btrfs ctl -s <snapshot-name> command. It is too bad though that a full-blown system rollback support feature could not be completed in time for Fedora 13, but that leaves something to look forward to for Fedora 14 later this year.
Last edited by madjr on Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

madjr
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Re: Fedora is getting rollbacks, can we port this to mint?

Post by madjr » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:17 pm

ikey wrote:I know its a nice-sounding idea but even when the filesystem goes fully stable and there
are gui tools for it, inherent risks will exist.
Take for example the situation that Fedora suggests, a full snapshot on every package install.
(Personally I install/remove quite often, so the thought of a thousand sub_volumes doesn't
appeal to me or the longevity of my hard-drive at all)
Imagine if during one of those installs something went wrong, or a broken /etc/ was backed up.
Now imagine Joe Bloggs applies that snapshot, 'grats, reborked the system.
I know I'm at risk of being lynched here.. but it sounds an awful lot like "System Restore"
in Windows..
If I see evidence of it working nicely then sweet, I'll even try it myself :)
But at the moment I'm incredibly sceptical as to consistently using snapshots as system restore points..

There are far more effective methods imo, and I only see one valid use for the snapshot feature,
in server environments. In a desktop environment that's just open to all kinds of bad behaviour,
and to the noob, its just a time-bomb waiting to explode
lynched?

you're more than welcome to express your opinion, you're safe here (cant say the same in fedora forums lol)

anyway if you need more docs and why they doing it check here

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13 ... with_btrfs

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ ... kWithBtrfs

http://blogs.igalia.com/aperez/2008/06/ ... snapshots/

also opensolaris has had this for a while
There are far more effective methods imo
can you expand on this?

thanks
Last edited by madjr on Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

madjr
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Re: Fedora is getting rollbacks, can we port this to mint?

Post by madjr » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:34 pm

ikey wrote:This is one incredibly hard thread to keep up with.
Everytime I look more content is added due to editing...

Better methods? I prefer reliable hard copies if I need data backed up, which the mintbackup
tool is quite capable of doing ;) Alternatively scp to dedicated server, raid setup, rsync to an external,
the possibilities are endless as they say :)
oh sorry *must keep away from e d i t b u t t o n arghh*

madjr
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Re: Fedora is getting rollbacks, can we port this to mint?

Post by madjr » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:55 pm

ikey wrote:
madjr wrote: oh sorry *must keep away from e d i t b u t t o n arghh*
I'm having trouble forgetting what the original thread was now because you've
edited every post, adding links, changing the tone etc.
I can't reply to a thread if you consistently alter the previous posts to shift
the perspective so that it looks like we have the questions and you have the answers.
If you would like a real discussion on the matter then please do so :)
actually my intention was to add a little more info (like extra links) for any new comer to the thread

am sorry if you got bit confused :cry:

madjr
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Re: Fedora is getting rollbacks, can we port this to mint?

Post by madjr » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:50 pm

ikey wrote:hey I didn't mean it in a bad way
i usually only edit when I make typos (which is a lot of the time actually, guess I'm more
used to IRC :lol:)
Quick question, have you given this snapshot thingy a go, and does it impede performance?
i haven't really had a chance try this one yet, was looking forward for final release of fedora

also am bit low on disk, i need to take some time to clean up

i'll check in the fedora or phoronix forums with the early adopters. I've also read somewhere of some people testing this in debian

been submitting bug reports to ubuntu, then i go into mint testing mode since it releases a little later

these are probably the busiest months for everyone :lol:

oh and great job on mintbackup, is a whole lot better. mint gets easier everytime and is always 1 step ahead of normal ubuntu

madjr
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Re: Fedora is getting rollbacks, can we port this to mint?

Post by madjr » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:03 am

oh great i just updated to the bugged xorg server before reading this

Ubuntu 10.04 Is Hit By Major X.Org Memory Leak


you guys are right, ubuntu has a serious problem when rolling updates :/

madjr
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Re: Fedora is getting rollbacks, can we port this to mint?

Post by madjr » Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:04 pm

if someone would like to see how snapshots in opensolaris work and time slider integration with gnome (which will be a similar aim for fedora)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfCtqX8d ... re=related


also the latest episode from the linux action show:
Linux's Btrfs the ZFS Killer?

madjr
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Re: Fedora is getting rollbacks, can we port this to mint?

Post by madjr » Fri May 14, 2010 5:24 pm


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