LM 9 Isadora - Constructive Criticisms

[jaycee]

(Before I start properly, this post, of course, has the related poll about "Get OpenOffice". The most useful article concerning this feature of PCLOS 2010 is this one - http://www.howtoforge.org/the-perfect-d ... 010-kde-p4. Read this link first (and preferably my post as well) before answering the poll, of course!)
Considering the now convoluted nature of the LM9 RC blog, any helpful suggestions for the final Isadora release are likely to go unnoticed. Thus the creation of this thread. Here is my original post on the blog:

Ok, here’s my first thoughts about this wonderful OS:
1. It’s as generally awesome as LM8 Helena, but with an even better background (although I’m still fondest of LM7’s default background, which has sadly been removed from the default install of LM9) and system update icon. (And, yes, I know I can download the background. Also, apparently the Felicia theme doesn’t come up properly because Clearlooks isn’t installed… surely Clearlooks needs to be there, considering it is the GNOME default and all!)
2. Software Manager is very, very nice (again). However, for beginners I think it would be better if this was the only option, rather than having both this and Package Manager right next to each other. Of course more experienced users (and I) will probably prefer having the two together, but the target audience is beginners. Imo it’d be better to relegate Synaptic to just the Admin menu under All Apps. (And, yes, I’m aware this is the same as LM8, but this is something worth changing for LM9.)
3. Take some inspiration from PCLinuxOS 2010 and use Get OpenOffice (which should also install Java), instead of just taking Java out and not even having it in the Featured section of the Software Manager. This will make for more space to include other potentially good out-of-the-box items that some Mint users may suggest during the LM9 RC testing.
4. As in LM8, the Control Center is intuitive and pretty. Wonderful!
5. LM9 Isadora seems pretty darn stable already! Most excellent! (And considering the base, i.e. Ubuntu 10.04, this is most impressive!)
I hope my comments are perceived to be nothing other than constructive criticisms (when they’re not actually compliments), as LM9 RC is actually quite ready for release as it is, at least for my laptop!
Cheers Clem and co! Here’s to the future of the best release of LM yet!

So, everyone, feel free to correct me, or add entirely new ideas about LM9! Of course an always useful source of inspiration is reviews of LM8 Helena, which are helpfully grouped together at Distrowatch - http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mint. Thanks for everyone who has something to offer Clem and co! Let's help make LM9 Isadora the best beginner-friendly OS available!

[mick55]

Which 100 small applications should be removed to make room for Open Office?

[jaycee]

Which 100 small applications should be removed to make room for Open Office?

I don't quite understand... the idea is that OpenOffice will be removed from the CD, replaced with a tiny script called "Get OpenOffice" on the desktop or Office app category that will allow you to easily get it after installing LM9. Why would that mean 100 small apps get removed?

[mick55]

My bad,

I got it backwards

[MrD]

well, after finally getting the BBC's iplayer to work (by installing Java in 9rc) I go for anything that will offer the ability to install it without spending hours pouring over forums trying to figure out what is going wrong. finally managed to get ITVplayer to work. Before the java install 4oD and Youtube would though.

But wasn't the fact the OS has Open office installed a good feature for bandwidth constricted areas of the world?

[jaycee]

Ah... that's a good consideration! Well, perhaps it would then be prudent to instead include Abiword and Gnumeric (i.e. GNOME Office) on the default install? And perhaps even additionally have the "Get OpenOffice" script as well? (I personally end up using both OpenOffice and GNOME Office post-install, as I generally prefer the lighter apps for most things but occasionally need OO.o Impress.)

[Carl]

But wasn't the fact the OS has Open office installed a good feature for bandwidth constricted areas of the world?

Then release a DVD sized iso with tons of bloatware =] as I presume if there in a bandwith contrsicted area of the world they've probably bought the Disc anyway

[Biker]

Every distro I've used goes through this same argument each time a new version is released. It will never, ever be settled. I'd rather have Open Office as part of the initial installation. If I don't want it, I can always remove it and download the SMALLER packages to replace it rather than the other way around. Far too many individuals are with Internet providers that have bandwidth restrictions. Makes more sense to snag the full package first instead of replacing it with other applications and then having to download it anyway.

[jaycee]

Every distro I've used goes through this same argument each time a new version is released. It will never, ever be settled. I'd rather have Open Office as part of the initial installation. If I don't want it, I can always remove it and download the SMALLER packages to replace it rather than the other way around. Far too many individuals are with Internet providers that have bandwidth restrictions. Makes more sense to snag the full package first instead of replacing it with other applications and then having to download it anyway.

Indeed a sensible proposition. However, the trade off is that the out-of-the-box-experience may suffer, inasmuch as having a large selection of small apps that appeal to a broad range of new users may give the best sense of an o-o-t-b-e. (Of course word processors and spreadsheets are essential for almost everyone, so I'd encourage Clem and co to include Abiword and Gnumeric on the LiveCD, were OpenOffice replaced with "Get OpenOffice".) It's simply dependent on what the distribution developers want to target - either a broad audience including those that may feel uncomfortable if the distro doesn't suit them immediately for various needs, or a broad audience including those that may have slow/limited internet connections inhibiting access to larger packages. (To be honest, when considering the removal of Java, I have no idea which way the devs are tilting! It could easily go either way!)

[DrHu]

Every distro I've used goes through this same argument each time a new version is released. It will never, ever be settled. I'd rather have Open Office as part of the initial installation. Makes more sense to snag the full package first instead of replacing it with other applications and then having to download it anyway.

Exactly..
I also have to install VLC, and I am not advocating for it's inclusion in the distribution, since there are several media players to choose from
--I agree that providing OpenOffice (a full office suite) makes the most sense, there aren't that many other choices in that area..

However, the trade off is that the out-of-the-box-experience may suffer, inasmuch as having a large selection of small apps that appeal to a broad range of new users may give the best sense of an o-o-t-b-e. (Of course word processors and spreadsheets are essential for almost everyone, so I'd encourage Clem and co to include Abiword and Gnumeric on the LiveCD, were OpenOffice replaced with "Get OpenOffice".)

However, the trade off is that the out-of-the-box-experience may suffer..
My out-of-the-box experience will be suffering, if a reasonable and well known application is removed and replaced with Gnome office, which is inadequate and probably not even being called that any longer by the Gnome team
--now if they can just stop with the constant mono development/inclusions for applications that shouldn't even be using it, such as Gnome network manager

• I also have no idea what appeals to a broad range of new users: I don't believe popularity contests/surveys are the method to determine that, I can only hope that the developers consider the user, before ditching applications that people do use..

Can't agree with that, instead I much prefer Biker's suggestion that using well known full applications is in general more useful than filling the media with tons and tons of small applications which new Linux users will never have heard of or even know how to use

..were OpenOffice replaced with "Get OpenOffice"..
Doesn't make any sense to me at all..
--when anyone can install anything, why would we need a provided method other than the standards in use to get an application; the exception being that some applications should naturally be included: an office suite strikes me as one such application, since new users might expect that, coming from windows or office live or Ms office, that is possibly included with their computer purchase
In that regard, OpenOffice is a good choice..
--I might also say openclipart is also a good choice, but can be left as an installation for the user: at least get the base set available..

[altair4]

3. Take some inspiration from PCLinuxOS 2010 and use Get OpenOffice (which should also install Java), instead of just taking Java out and not even having it in the Featured section of the Software Manager

Which java? As you know Ubuntu 10.04 doesn't install java by default. And when you go into the default repositories the only java available is something called OpenJDK and the IcedTea plugin. I for one don't want to install OpenOfiice, have openJDK installed with it and then have to uninstall OpenJDK, add a repository, and install sun's ( oops - oracle's ) java jre.

[opticyclic]

--I agree that providing OpenOffice (a full office suite) makes the most sense, there aren't that many other choices in that area..

One other choice is IBM Lotus Symphony http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=46382
It is based on OpenOffice but has a bit of extra polish on it.

I can't tell you how much space it takes up though http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=43912

..were OpenOffice replaced with "Get OpenOffice"..
Doesn't make any sense to me at all..
--when anyone can install anything, why would we need a provided method other than the standards in use to get an application;.

The same reason that mintInstall and the software portal was created.
For ease of use obviously!

[den1m]

But wasn't the fact the OS has Open office installed a good feature for bandwidth constricted areas of the world?

Then release a DVD sized iso with tons of bloatware =] as I presume if there in a bandwith contrsicted area of the world they've probably bought the Disc anyway

Bloatware? This is linux, remember? Not windows.

And Mint is now the entry port for linux noobs and i think linux mint is ready to take up the fight against apple if they include more software. So i vote yes to a DVD release aswell.

But you minimalists are really in the wrong distro here. You are not the group mint should aim for. You should rather choose another distro, like arch linux or puppy linux. But maybe, a "mint light" on CD could be chosen for you minimalists, and then a "full mint" on DVD for the rest of us and the noobs that rather enjoy linux with its wide range of usefull and great software and use Mint as a desktop OS for alot of things.

[distro hopper]

I love the idea of a Mint-light distro.

[DrHu]

But you minimalists are really in the wrong distro here. You are not the group mint should aim for. You should rather choose another distro, like arch linux or puppy linux. But maybe, a "mint light" on CD could be chosen for you minimalists, and then a "full mint" on DVD for the rest of us and the noobs that rather enjoy linux with its wide range of usefull and great software and use Mint as a desktop OS for alot of things.

But you minimalists are really in the wrong distro here. You are not the group mint should aim for....
I am OK, to let Mint manage their own business planning, if I don't like the results, I can always go away..
Pioneers always have the arrows in their backs: or if you want to say minimalists, so be it..

Just because a social committee decides that a demographic group now decides what ? (user means..)

• user
• new user
• normal user
• typical user
• our users
  --and so on, doesn't mean either that they are always right or wrong

• They are just being smug, since getting onto the trendy groups is the way to seem important and have your (group) opinion added in to count for its MAX effect..

--ultimately, I hope the developers within Mint don't fall over themselves trying to accommodate those proscribed groups to cater to, more than anyone else..

[KenWeiLL]

It's a desktop OS. OpenOffice should be installed by default. Word, Presentation, Spreadsheet is enough.
Ubuntu's removal of gimp is a wise decision as not all users know or would want to use it. Even I, don't use it.
But openoffice is widely used especially with desktop OS.

[Phaedrus]

I think a basic install of Open Office should be on CD. I also think GIMP should be included. If you are limited to >700mb its a tough call deciding what`s going to be in and what`s going to be left out.

Having both a CD and a DVD version gives users (as well as the Mint team) a choice.