Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

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stereotactic
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Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by stereotactic »

And should it shift to Debian for all it's releases?

Number of reasons :

1) Canonical is doing a great disservice by not contributing to the code.

2) Paid software in the Software Centre; in effect it wants to create an ecosystem and create lock ins. Its the same strategy as Apple. Create a visually appealing product and then unknown to most of it's fanbois, use proprietary standards to disallow genuine innovation. To me, Open Source is "free" (I would donate) but the idea of paid applications is reprehensible. Before you flame me, there is a huge majority of people living below the digital divide who cannot afford the cost of an Operating System let alone hardware (in third world countries).

3) It's shift to Unity discarding Gnome.

4) 6 monthly release cycles. While I understand that Linux Mint emphasizes back up tools and FRESH installation, it's a pain in the ass for lazy bums like me.

Here's a possible solution:

1) Distro based on Debian Stable.

2) Codecs as already being done in present builds.

3) For those who want "latest builds", to allow for ppa's. It does away with the hassle of constant upgrading and installation; core components of the distro keep on getting the security updates and Mint approach for package management.

What is the opinion of the house?

As I typed this out, I came across constantly usable testing distribution for Debian:
http://lwn.net/Articles/406301/ Which more or less aligns with the ideas as above; to have a rolling release and get rid of Ubuntu for ever.
Last edited by stereotactic on Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MALsPa
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by MALsPa »

I'm fine with the Ubuntu-based Mint. In Mint and Ubuntu, I use only the LTS versions, anyway. Doesn't matter much to me either way, I guess.
Last edited by MALsPa on Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

wayne128
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by wayne128 »

I learned how to install and used many other distros in additions to Mint
Thus, whichever way Mint decides, it really does not affect me.
There are enough to choose from all Linux OSes.

Edit : by the way, I prefer LMDE than Mint standard for one reason:
LMDE : I can install within 10 minutes and get it up to internet.
Mint : I need to spend 45-70 minutes for it to download language pack.
Last edited by wayne128 on Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tdockery97
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by tdockery97 »

I see no reason for Mint to abandon its Ubuntu roots. Mint can still use the best parts of the Ubuntu base without following the direction of Unity desktop and for sale software. My reasoning behind this is that Ubuntu is easier to "tame" than Debian for users who are new to Linux. After some experience is gained, those users may desire to venture into Debian base, which is also provided by Mint via LMDE.

As wayne128 stated above, it really does not affect me one way or the other, as I already use LMDE from Mint.
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burjans
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by burjans »

I am agree, I prefer Debian ... but try to read the good news:

http://www.debian.org/News/2011/20110318

:wink:
Debian Xfce (Strech) - Pentium IV / 512 MB - RAM

itlarson
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by itlarson »

I think Mint should absolutely divorce itself from Ubuntu, but not because of free software idealism, or Canonical hate. The reason is the hopelessly broken nature of Ubuntu's release schedule. The two year schedule for LTS versions is too long- by month 20 apps are hopelessly out of date. On the other hand, Ubuntu doesn't regard the six-monthly releases as fully stable, and often puts beta software in them. If you want up-to-date apps, you need to continuously update the OS, and the new version is often partially broken. Here are a few examples of problems caused by the Ubuntu release schedule:

-I recently had to install VLC from a PPA on Mythbuntu 10.4 because HDMI output was broken in the version from Ubuntu's repositories, and they're not updating it. Besides the HDMI issue, the VLC people also say the version of their software included in 10.4 has known security issues.

-I had to install Gpodder from PPA because the version which came with Mint 10 had no device support whatsoever. For a piece of software which is primarily used to load podcasts onto audio players, this defect qualifies it as fully broken. Of course this issue originates from Ubuntu's habit of putting beta software in the short-term releases. Fortunately the Gpodder team has a PPA with the version they consider stable. Although it's good that the PPA compatibility between Mint and Ubuntu allowed me to fix this problem, it would be better if the problem didn't exist in the first place.

-Going back a bit, remember how buggy sound was on the first version of Ubuntu to include pulseaudio? Once again, beta software.

-Conversely, Firefox 4 is fully ready for prime-time, but probably won't be available in Mint until Mint 11 comes out.

So how to fix this? I'm no hacker, so I don't know the complexities involved, but from a usability standpoint, Here's what I would see as ideal. It would be a stable rolling release with the ability to choose between three versions of each application. The application versions would be called "testing", "stable", and "deprecated". By default stable would always be installed, and when a new stable version came out it would be installed in place the old one at update time. Users would have the option of installing the "testing" or "deprecated" version in place of the stable one. A new app like Firefox 4 could immediately be added to the repositories as "testing", so people could easily choose to install it. At install time they could choose to continue using "testing" versions, or to follow the newly installed version until it becomes "stable". The "deprecated" version would be there in case someone had a problem with the new "stable" version.

This would provide a system that was always fairly current, but would be less glitchy, because apps would stay in testing until they were ready, instead of being forced to meet an arbitrary cut-off date. It would be less hassle for the user, because there would be no need to upgrade. Ideally updates would be completely automatic in the background. This could also be a real innovation for Linux over windows, and Mac OS, if it were able to provide an operating system which was both stable, and always up-to-date.

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nunol
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by nunol »

I rather have choice. Now I can chose one or the other and dont want to use a rolling realise for everything.

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monkeyboy
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by monkeyboy »

Most every project is downstream from some other project (sometimes that it good and sometimes its bad) and I have gotten used to judging projects based on their own merits and not on their upstream neighbors.
If you don't like it, make something better
If you can't make something better, adapt
If you can't do either ball your panties up and cry.

Complaining is like masticating most anyone can do it.
However doing it in public is really hardcore.

lmintnewb
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by lmintnewb »

Not that I'm qualified, since am not a developer or know the challenges they face on the backend. But off the top would say absolutely. Think them collaborating directly with Debian is bound to turn out well.

Came out fairly well for ubuntu it seems. Just get a bad vibe off of them for whatever reason. Played around with ubuntu 10.10 and it sent me fleeing. Default desktop layout was so whacky and off the wall.

Probably could've/should've tweaked it and messed with it some more. But found a great linux distro right here with Mint. Leave it to someone from Ireland to come up with something this frickin good !


:D

rtrev
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by rtrev »

wayne128 wrote:Edit : by the way, I prefer LMDE than Mint standard for one reason:
LMDE : I can install within 10 minutes and get it up to internet.
Mint : I need to spend 45-70 minutes for it to download language pack.
I prefer LMDE, but I think you forgot to add in the need to install the 700 or 800 or whatever it is now updates to the latest LMDE image once it's installed. :shock: That might blow away your time savings as shown above? :wink:

Bob

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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by AlbertP »

45-70 mins for downloading language? Choose 'No Localization' in the language chooser to get rid of it. You get English (US/UK? don't know this), which is already installed on the CD/DVD, if you do so. Your internet must be very slow as it took 5 mins or maybe even less at my 500 kB/s connection.

And Mint can add all software it wants to Ubuntu: VLC, Firefox, all newer versions possible if someone adds them to Mint repository. Debian does not even support the PPA's from Launchpad, so you often have to compile from source to get a newer version (or wait till it reaches testing / stable, whatever you use).
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NormanF
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by NormanF »

Canonical is NOT discarding GNOME.

Unity is simply a shell that runs on top of GNOME. The idea is to simplify the cluttered traditional menu for the user and make everything accessible in a global menu. You can type in one or two letters and applications appear to match what you're looking for. The same wild card search is used to find files and folders.

You should be able to find what you need and then either run it from the launcher dock or pin it there like in Windows 7. That is how Unity works.

kvv
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by kvv »

stereotactic wrote: use proprietary standards to disallow genuine innovation. To me, Open Source is "free" (I would donate) but the idea of paid applications is reprehensible. Before you flame me, there is a huge majority of people living below the digital divide who cannot afford the cost of an Operating System let alone hardware (in third world countries).
I am in a sour mood, so pardon if I come of as rude.

1. If you find proprietary standards so distasteful, you would be better off using a free distro like Trisquel.
2. If you prefer free as in gratis and free as in libre applications, Linux and Ubuntu will *always* package them. And Ubuntu itself will always be open source. That's the only way they generate income right now. They cannot hope to compete with with Apple or MS if they go all out proprietary.
3. I think inclusion of paid applications is great though still very young. It gives people the freedom of easily installing proprietary applications that they need.

I am totally against switching from Ubuntu base to something else based on ideology.
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Forthright
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by Forthright »

In reply to the thread topic...

Hell No!
kvv wrote:If you find proprietary standards so distasteful, you would be better off using a free distro like Trisquel.
Well said... you beat me to it :D
Forthright's Usability Test: "Can you do that effectively whilst holding a conversation and eating a sandwich?"

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DrHu
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by DrHu »

Yes|No

Can it make much difference, as it only really affects the distribution authors/developers..
  • Unless you find one or the other lacking, because of bugs or update cycle or otherwise ?..

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mehmet7
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by mehmet7 »

Ubuntu is quite Ok, a good choice for beginners...lets stick to it!

Martenous
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by Martenous »

I wouldn't mind seeing Linux Mint based on Debian only for the main edition. The hardest parts would probably be the transition to Debian, a lot of Mint software would have to be changed, a huge amount of tweaking, etc.. Not to mention that you lose a lot of the good features Ubuntu (Good installer, notifications) has and the hardware support Ubuntu has (excuse me if I'm wrong about this, but I found Ubuntu has a lot more hardware supported than Debian does. A friend installed LMDE and it didn't support hardware that the main edition of Linux Mint could).

But in the end, what I really want is for this great linux distribution continue to be stable, easy to use, ready out-of-the-box and let me get my work done regardless of what it is based on. Also, it's not like Linux Mint is tied to Ubuntu's fate, Linux Mint is completely autonomous because any code, setting or choice that Ubuntu makes can be changed to fit Linux Mint's needs. :)

Edit: It's funny because just after I posted this Mint locked up and had a kernal panic XD

bwat47
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by bwat47 »

Ubuntu is constantly changing and with unity they are really doing their own thing. I think ubuntu isn't a very stable base, and it would benefit mint in the long run to differentiate themselves more and use the more stable debian base. Also rolling releases are awesome.

stereotactic
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by stereotactic »

kvv wrote:
stereotactic wrote: use proprietary standards to disallow genuine innovation. To me, Open Source is "free" (I would donate) but the idea of paid applications is reprehensible. Before you flame me, there is a huge majority of people living below the digital divide who cannot afford the cost of an Operating System let alone hardware (in third world countries).
I am in a sour mood, so pardon if I come of as rude.

1. If you find proprietary standards so distasteful, you would be better off using a free distro like Trisquel. .
I am not against "proprietary standards" because if FOSS works as well, I'd be more than willing to use them.
kvv wrote: 2. If you prefer free as in gratis and free as in libre applications, Linux and Ubuntu will *always* package them. And Ubuntu itself will always be open source. That's the only way they generate income right now. They cannot hope to compete with with Apple or MS if they go all out proprietary.
Please read it carefully. I mentioned about "paid applications"; not "standards". This is standard usage of English; I am not sure whether English is your first language.
kvv wrote:3. I think inclusion of paid applications is great though still very young. It gives people the freedom of easily installing proprietary applications that they need.
I am totally against switching from Ubuntu base to something else based on ideology.
Its your opinion, and you are welcome to it. :D

Mozenrath
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Re: Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

Post by Mozenrath »

I'd say yes, but then we'd lose the convenience of launchpad PPAs. :(

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