Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

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Should Linux Mint...

Maintain There Own Distro
105
34%
Follow Ubuntu
47
15%
Follow Debian
136
44%
Other (tell me in the comments)
18
6%
 
Total votes: 306

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proxima_centauri
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by proxima_centauri » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:44 pm

tdockery97 wrote:For this reason I feel it is somewhat irresponsible for the Gnome development team to decide that only those with "gaming" hardware should be able to use one of the most popular Linux desktops.
While I don't know any statistics to gauge how many users are "left in the dust" with GNOME3, according to GNOME3 https://live.gnome.org/GNOME3Myths

It is our primary focus to build a modern operating environment, platform, and user experience. It doesn't make sense to target the hardware of the past. GNOME Shell uses relatively primitive 3D capabilities that have been available from essentially all computing devices made in the last 4 or 5 years. This includes most desktop and laptop computers, mobile devices, phones, tablets, and netbooks. Where there are exceptions, largely, there are bugs we can and should fix.

As such, I feel the assertion that one needs "gaming" hardware in order to properly run GNOME3 is an unfair statement. Furthermore, a case could be made that typical users using outdated hardware should probably consider other lighter desktop environments beyond gnome, even in it's previous release.
tdockery97 wrote:...one of the biggest obstacles to Gnome 3 is the fact that it just will not perform correctly on a large number of computers in use.
This could be accurate, again hard to say for certain - but the GNOME3 team is allegedly committed in the sense that,

"The GNOME project and its partners are working hard to ensure that the complete GNOME 3 experience is available to as many people as possible, and aim to ensure that users who are initially unable to have this experience will be able to in the future."

But yes, it is inevitable that some users will be left behind - this is the cost of introducing new, more hardware intensive software.
If the switch to GNOME3 meant that a significant amount of current Linux Mint main edition users could no longer use continue using Linux Mint, then yes - I agree this would be a problem and an alternative desktop environment would need to be considered.

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by KBD47 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:53 pm

It is interesting to me that KDE is supposed to be the most resource hungry desktop, yet it works fine on my old desktop computer where neither Unity or Gnome 3 will work on it. Yet Gnome 2 also works great on it. It does not surprise me that LXDE and XFCE are growing in popularity. Sleek and fast often beat out huge, bloated, and slow. If we wanted huge, bloated, and slow we would be using Windows :-)
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by proxima_centauri » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:02 pm

I think the crux of the problem with GNOME3 is the graphical requirements - but we already see problems with different nvidia/ati/intel graphic cards and their open-source/proprietary drivers - regardless of distribution or display environment.

GNOME3 was built from scratch - and once properly running, it's much less bloated then the previous incarnation of GNOME.
Anecdotally, for what it's worth, GNOME3 on my laptop runs much smoother and takes up much less memory than GNOME2.32 ever did.

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by pluraldave » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:10 pm

tdockery97 wrote:My laptop is less than 2 years old, and on some distros running Gnome 3 the only thing that will work is the fallback mode.
IIRC the issue isn't the age of the computer, but a bug with the ATI driver (or a bug in GS when using the ATI driver).

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by KBD47 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:14 pm

All I know is that my old desktop won't run either Gnome 3 or Unity. It will run everything else. If hardware requirements shave off many potential customers, that seems like a bad move. Hardware problems are a big enough issue already with Linux, why create more? But even if Gnome 3 worked on my desktop I wouldn't have it for the many reasons already listed. If the most popular Linux distros are going with desktops that won't work for many potential customers, and are unusable besides--that is a major step back IMO. The good news is that other distros will get more attention now. And thankfully with Linux we have many choices. If developers don't consider their customer base--it is their loss.
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by tdockery97 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:23 pm

Luckily the current state of Gnome (or any other DE for that matter) isn't going to give me ulcers. The beauty of Linux is that with enough patience, research, and knowledge you can make it into what you yourself consider the "perfect" distro. You don't have to be a developer to do so. It's simply a matter of learning what to add or take away, or what to tweak, from what is already there on a good base (whether that is Debian, Ubuntu, or some other). With the help of Google and forum posts literally anyone can do it, from newbies to gurus. So I say just have fun with Linux. :D
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by xenopeek » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:30 am

tdockery97 wrote:So I say just have fun with Linux. :D
+1 to that :mrgreen: Comes as a shock, but not everybody wants to have fun with Linux :shock:
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by ausminter » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:47 am

Why doesn't mint come with a light GDM that will work on older systems.
That way people with modern hardware can run Gnome 3 and people with older hardware can have a functional desktop at installation.
We used to have a choice of managers but now we don't get that choice.

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by xenopeek » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:16 am

Light GDM is probably coming in Linux Mint 12, inherited from Ubuntu 11.10.
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by AlbertP » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:54 pm

GDM is just the login screen. It isn't the desktop.
You can use whatever login screen you want with a lightweight desktop like LXDE. GDM won't make an LXDE desktop heavier. It can only use swap during login.
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by linuxviolin » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:26 pm

KBD47, yes and although I don't like either, Unity is probably better than GNOME 3. BTW, GNOME 2 is dead now.
proxima_centauri wrote:In conclusion, gnome3 is not for everyone, but it is for some people
Yes, for some not mentally sane people... :wink: (Hmm, I already see some people here crying and shouting I'm too harsh and I use some too "strong" words... :lol:)

As I said elsewhere:
As said by someone else:
I doubt that the GNOME developers will fix the fundamental issues people have with GNOME 3 because "they're not bugs, they're features, and if you say otherwise, we'll shut you up".
HardyH wrote:I have no faith in Gnome 3 as the developers
Personally I have no real faith in the developers as a whole...
tdockery97 wrote:Fortunately I've discovered that KDE has been greatly improving lately.
Yes... but I have already talked about this elsewhere in the forum. :-)
KBD47 wrote:It is interesting to me that KDE is supposed to be the most resource hungry desktop, yet it works fine on my old desktop computer where neither Unity or Gnome 3 will work on it. Yet Gnome 2 also works great on it.
Here too. My somewhat old test computer does not accept to run GNOME 3 and Unity but it runs Mageia KDE 4 quite well (but not Fedora KDE) which almost flies on it. The best is also to stop the indexing things, Nepomuk and like... Btw, I never use this. :twisted:
xenopeek wrote:not everybody wants to have fun with Linux
We don't want "fun", we want our work done. A computer is not a toy, buy a game console rather...
Last edited by linuxviolin on Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by xenopeek » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:35 am

linuxviolin wrote:
xenopeek wrote:not everybody wants to have fun with Linux
We don't want "fun", we want our work done. A computer is not a toy, buy a game console rather...
Okay, we are clearly at the opposite ends of user spectrum here :D Linux at home is a hobby to me (hence the fun bit), but if I would use it at work I agree I would want it just to work :wink:

And I don't understand the game console remark. What is the fun it that? :lol:
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by linuxviolin » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:56 am

xenopeek wrote:I don't understand the game console remark. What is the fun it that? :lol:
Quite, very, good! :lol:
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by gogogadget » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:30 am

So, what is it now, has it been decided yet which way to go? I am very impatient and will install Debian Edition soon... probably that's the most futureproof track. Besides, can I upgrade to Gnome3 (+Shell) from the Debian Edition?

I have tried again to switch over to Ubuntu and checked the 11.10 Beta 2, but got disappointed immediately by stupid baby crashes and illnesses... Mint is the one and only usable Linux Distribution where everything just works.

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by gogogadget » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:25 am

Oh, thanks for being able to revote. I have just installed Debian and it sucked, therefore I voted back for Ubuntu. I was not able to activate my UMTS modem, which is a complete No-Go, since it's my only connection to the internet. I will go back to Mint LXDE Edition, which is based on Ubuntu, isn't it? I had only minor problems with that yet. I guess I'll stick to LXDE in future, although it's not that comfortable. Everything worked at least, and everything is on 1 CD (not like the Gnome CD, my prior #1, but which has now no Codecs included anymore...).

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by xenopeek » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:45 am

gogogadget wrote:So, what is it now, has it been decided yet which way to go? I am very impatient and will install Debian Edition soon... probably that's the most futureproof track. Besides, can I upgrade to Gnome3 (+Shell) from the Debian Edition?
Debian is eventually also moving to Gnome 3.
gogogadget wrote:I have tried again to switch over to Ubuntu and checked the 11.10 Beta 2, but got disappointed immediately by stupid baby crashes and illnesses... Mint is the one and only usable Linux Distribution where everything just works.
Of course Mint is the one and only :mrgreen: But seriously, there are a lot of distros out there and you might find something else to suit you. Mageia, while not for me, has a very clean Gnome 2 release just out the door.
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by linuxviolin » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:03 pm

xenopeek wrote:Mageia, while not for me, has a very clean Gnome 2 release just out the door.
Although probably Mageia will have GNOME 3 in Mageia 2 (release in April 2012)... If you really want to stay with GNOME 2 for years, you should use distros like Red Hat, or one of its clones, which uses GNOME 2 and is supported for many many years again...
Last edited by linuxviolin on Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
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"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by Condorman » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:07 pm

I don't get the negativity around Gnome 3/shell. I've been using it now for about 5 or 6 months on openSUSE and it's been utterly fantastic. It's simply a very nice DE in every day use.

However, especially after recently playing with Ubuntu 11.10 beta 2, I feel that Linux Mint would be much better off still following Ubuntu and creating their own "Mint Shell" to replace Unity. Looking at the Mint Menu and Unity, there really isn't a lot between them at all, and a lovely Mintified Unity-style overlay would be amazing.

Of course, it's easy when you say it fast. This would no doubt be a lot of work for the Mint team.

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by xenopeek » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:00 pm

Ugh, seriously considering switching to LMDE as main system (especially with update pack #3 available :mrgreen:). Just read Phoronix test results on Ubuntu 11.04 vs. 11.10--boot time has almost doubled since last release: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=a ... hart&num=1. Probably not only the boot is suffering from increased bloat. I must say this reawakens my concerns about Ubuntu's apparent lack of Q&A, or at least not doing (or acting on the results of) any kind of performance or regression testing.

But I'll hold judgement till final 11.10 release to have an actual look, and of course keeping my hopes high that Linux Mint will polish the sharp edges on this Ubuntu release with Linux Mint 12.
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by Robin » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:19 pm

Really, boot time?

One of the biggest complaints against Ubuntu has been their rush to faster boot times at the expense of other functionality. Now here's a complaint that boot times are too slow in the latest Beta. Can't win, can they?

Personally I don't consider boot time important, and I doubt that many "ordinary users" care that much. I turn my 'puter on and go grab a cup of coffee or a Mountain Dew from the fridge. By the time I return to my room from the kitchen, my desktop is all ready for school. If it takes a few seconds longer so what.

I'm really surprised at the little things that matter so much to some users. Picking nits in my opinion.

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