Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

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Should Linux Mint...

Maintain There Own Distro
105
34%
Follow Ubuntu
47
15%
Follow Debian
136
44%
Other (tell me in the comments)
18
6%
 
Total votes: 306

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linuxviolin
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by linuxviolin »

Nick_Djinn wrote:Mandrivas biggest weakness is the package management tools
What? urpmi is quite good and a gazillion times faster than Yum, to compare two RPM package managers (also valid for the GUI tools) At least in Mageia... :roll:
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by craig10x »

zerozero...just a note...i am running in the LMDE 64 bit gnome final iso as i type this (on live session...just playing with it at this point) and it seems quite stable...I notice you still have to left click and pivot to the mouse settings to click on for the touchpad tap to function (as it has always been on there) and add apt-xapian to get the "quick search" going in package manager...but the flash videos on 64 bit has definitely been fixed and works smooth now and everything else i checked seems ok...still can't seem to get transparency in mint menu like on main edition...

I'm considering giving it another go..though i shudder a bit at the thought of using the manual installer again...also, always seemed to not get the "swap" partition working on LMDE in the past, and always had to get technical assistance in editing "fstab" so it would be recognized (on the installed version)...
Wish it had some auto-install options like the main edition..

However, does look like Clem cleaned up most of the RC bugs i noticed... :wink:

If i do install it...i wonder if in a few weeks i'll end up re-installing mint 11 again :wink: :lol:

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by zerozero »

craig, if you go though the testing pages, you will see that some of the issues (most of them were addressed in this release, a few not)

as for your last point, you have to consider that LMDE is a rolling release, that meaning that is in permanent change, even with update-packs there's little Mint can do to prevent or ease the change (well same applies to the point releases, but there as you are installing every x month you don't feel it the same way)
- even tracking latest you have to realise that your computing experience may change every month or so (for better? for worst? with breakages? i don't know... has been fairly quiet, but)
- with the main ed. your computing experience also changes every time you install a new release (and you accept that as normal)

as for stability and bugs (i don't run any ubuntu v. for more than one year, so...), take a look at this page and see the bugs in debian and ubuntu (49 vs. 893), my poit is in ubuntu 11.04 and mint11 those bugs were there when you installed the system (annoying, but... that's the way it was/is, so nothing to do), in LMDE things are a bit different, the system can work perfectly one day and next update brings a regression, or a fix, or an improvement;

until you accept this, you won't be happy with LMDE :lol:
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by craig10x »

thank you zerozero...that was very helpful...I actually ran in the live session overnight and am typing this while still in it...it does seem to be pretty smooth and most of the rc bugs have been fixed...though one strange thing i noticed (at least in live session) is that the small group of pre-installed screensavers are working fine but when i installed extra ones and select one, the screen goes to screensaver at the appropriate time, but that screensaver doesn't display...
That is about the only bug i could spot...of course, i don't know if it would do that when installed...

My thought was this would be a good time to try it, since Mint 12 should be arriving in approx 2 months...so it would give me some time to work with LMDE and if when Mint 12 comes out, i decide it would be better for me to return to ubuntu based version, then at that point, i'll go with Mint 12...and if i am pretty happy with LMDE then just stay with that... :wink:

By the way, you are quite correct about bugs/regressions when you even go to a new ubuntu based edition...i've had several bugs in Mint 11 that i did NOT have in Mint 10...and i haven't seen a fix from ubuntu yet and it has been quite some time...At least in LMDE, you will often get a fix (sooner or later) :lol:
So, i suppose that is an advantage...

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by AlbertP »

linuxviolin wrote:
Nick_Djinn wrote:Mandrivas biggest weakness is the package management tools
What? urpmi is quite good and a gazillion times faster than Yum, to compare two RPM package managers (also valid for the GUI tools) At least in Mageia... :roll:
I think Nick_Djinn talks about the graphical package management tools. Programs like Synaptic and Mint Software Manager. Urpmi is indeed fine but that does not imply that the GUI tools based on it are fine too.
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linuxviolin
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by linuxviolin »

AlbertP wrote:I think Nick_Djinn talks about the graphical package management tools. Programs like Synaptic and Mint Software Manager. Urpmi is indeed fine but that does not imply that the GUI tools based on it are fine too.
Ah OK, maybe. In my post I talked about two RPM package managers (Yum and Urpmi) About the GUI tools, maybe yes Synaptic and Mint Software Manager are fine but try this one of Fedora, I think you'll also find the GUI tools for Urpmi are faster and fine too, like for the command line. At least in Mageia...

But it's not the subject of this topic... :)
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by Nick_Djinn »

Yeah, I am talking about the graphical tools.

Power users are often not in touch with what the mainstream crowd wants.



In my opinion, operating systems should be designed by novices with no knowledge of the command line. You should choose intelligent and creative noobs, but do not allow professional programmers or hackers much input on the graphical front end designs.....put the noobs in charge and just tell the devs what to implement and to just 'make it work'.

I know that sounds just terrible and even ungrateful for the effort people put into it, but if you paid the developers a half million dollars a year plus expenses, let the noobs tell you whats easy for THEM and made it happen, you would have the most easy and intuitive operating system.


Most noobs are not confused when you say that a distro is "user friendly".....only geeks who rely on hacking and shortcuts are going to stand there and get technical and remind you that "ease of use" is relative to your skill level and approach. A completely accurate statement, but it only confuses the issue with facts that are not relevant to the noobs coming from one of the two most common operating systems. Without copying them, we should be culturally aware of the habits and skill sets of the general population. Mint actually does a good job of this. Renaming the Mint Menu options to a more familiar "Control Center/Panel" really helps compared to the confusing and space consuming option used in vanilla Ubuntu with Gnome2.



Anyway, the graphical tools used by most noobs who have no great interest in the command line approach to installing software is not as good in Mageia as it is in Mint or Ubuntu or PCLOS.

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by xenopeek »

Nick_Djinn wrote:Power users are often not in touch with what the mainstream crowd wants.

In my opinion, operating systems should be designed by novices with no knowledge of the command line. You should choose intelligent and creative noobs, but do not allow professional programmers or hackers much input on the graphical front end designs.....put the noobs in charge and just tell the devs what to implement and to just 'make it work'.

I know that sounds just terrible and even ungrateful for the effort people put into it, but if you paid the developers a half million dollars a year plus expenses, let the noobs tell you whats easy for THEM and made it happen, you would have the most easy and intuitive operating system.
Yeah, this sounds pretty terrible :D But hey, I'm a Linux nerd :mrgreen: (Or at least give me I'm a Linux geek...) I don't want an OS that doesn't give me full control of my computer, by noobiefying the GUI. What you describe is called OSX.
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by linuxviolin »

Vincent Vermeulen wrote:Yeah, this sounds pretty terrible :D But hey, I'm a Linux nerd :mrgreen: (Or at least give me I'm a Linux geek...) I don't want an OS that doesn't give me full control of my computer, by noobiefying the GUI. What you describe is called OSX.
Yes, but don't mention the Evil please... :evil: :mrgreen:

Nick_Djinn, maybe I can partially agree with you but I don't agree about Mageia. It is one of the most simple distros. Any newbie, noob, can use it quite easily with no use of the command line. There are GUIs for almost everything, and they are quite easy to find and simple to use. Mageia, btw PCLOS also, has inherited stuff from Mandriva and this stuff has always been recognized as very "user-friendly" and very good. E.g.: the installer is top-notch, the Control Center is top of its class etc... And
Mageia's system installer is possibly the best desktop Linux installer I've encountered to date and I don't make that statement lightly. Fedora, Ubuntu, openSUSE and SimplyMEPIS all have, in my opinion, really good installers, but what I think places Mageia's at the head of the pack is the way in which it straddles the line between ease of use and more advanced options.
Etc (DistroWatch in its review at Mageia the Magnificent? You perhaps could read it.)

Its security posture is also excellent, and this is not the case for all distros. As said in another review:
Out of the box, there are no open ports on Mageia 1.0. Courtesy of Mandriva excellent security applications, Mageia has a very good security posture. The security applications are accessible from the Security section of MCC. The Shorewall-based firewall is enabled and configured, with interactive and port scan detection capabilities. There is a Squid and DansGuardian-powered parental control system with IP address blacklisting, application and user-blocking and time-of-day access control.

There is msec, the Mageia SECurity package (or is that the Mandriva SECurity package?), which provides an easy and newbie-friendly method to configure and manage system-wide security. With msec, you can set one of two security levels for the system (Standard or Secure, default is Standard). msec will perform specified regular security checks and display an informational message on the desktop, with the option to email the administrator.

With these security features and its support for disk encryption, boot loader password protection, and the password and user account security options on the user management application, Mageia can be configured to achieve the highest physical security rating possible for a desktop system.
(Mageia 1.0 review, page 3)


OK, its package management GUI can perhaps be a little slow, although if you compare to another RPM GUI in Fedora for instance, you'll find it faster. But maybe it can be better. In all case, Mageia is one of the distros the most easy, simple and with no use of the command line if you wish that a newbie/noob can use. It is quite stable and really simple to use, for all levels. (I don't speak about Cauldron, the rawhide/cooker of Mageia and future Mageia 2, of course)

To avoid misunderstanding, I don't say it is perfect and nothing can be better neither other distros as Mint or other are bad of course. :wink:
Nick_Djinn wrote:the confusing and space consuming option used in vanilla Ubuntu with Gnome2.
I have never found, even when I was a newbie, GNOME 2 was "confusing", at the contrary. As a newbie, I liked it very much, and after too. About "space consuming", I have already said elsewhere I don't agree with that, except maybe in recent times with these stupid new sizes and resolutions for screens, e.g. in laptops... In this case, yes, the default GNOME 2 setup may not be optimal.

P.S.= I'm sorry if I have been a little "inflamed" about Mageia but the Nick_Djinn comment made ​​me react, though perhaps in a way a little too "erectile". :lol:
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
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"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by xenopeek »

Okay linuxviolin, you convinced at least me :D I'm downloading Mageia now and will give it a try. Have been speed reading the reviews and this seems worth a actual look!

Edit: Ugh, booting and speed is unbelievable slow. It is like I'm using a harddisk again instead of the SSD that is actually in my box (with minimum read speed I benchmarked at 200 MiB/s). And it starts with me having to accept a 6 page license agreement :shock: I repeat, ugh. This is not for me :wink:
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by linuxviolin »

Vincent Vermeulen wrote:booting and speed is unbelievable slow.
As I said, I seek to convince nobody, I just reacted to some comments about it... But slow? Well in LiveCD, maybe yes, but as an installed system... E.g. on my test PC, an a little old 32 bit with just 1 GB RAM and no SSD, Fedora KDE is quite slow and almost unresponsive sometimes, almost freezing it seems sometimes. But Mageia KDE almost flies on it, it's quite astonishing by comparison... Even booting is relatively fast. (Well, of course, that depends also what you call fast... If it's 5 sec, then yes, it is slow :lol:) On your system, I don't know but if a distro is good, solid, stable... maybe one can accept some slowness, although I know we are in times where everything must go fast... :roll: But yes, it is maybe not the faster system in the world, if this is what you seek. :P

But again, I seek to convince nobody, but I can give some information... :wink:

P.S.= I precise I'm currently using Cauldron, not Mageia 1, on this computer.
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
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"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by xenopeek »

linuxviolin wrote:But again, I seek to convince nobody, but I can give some information... :wink:
No issues :D The reviews you shared, and my not having tried Mandriva or Mageia previously, was reason enough to give this a look. I run any "gee, let's give this a look" distro through VirtualBox so no filesystems were hurt in this attempt :wink: And while all Linux distros I've tried so far load almost as fast as natively installed (which is 6 seconds on my box), Mageia was really horribly slow. But I stumbled more over having to accept a license agreement before I could install. I got away from Windows for that kind of hoity toity, artsy fartsy, nonsense.
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by linuxviolin »

Vincent, excuse me for my poor English but what does this mean: hoity toity, artsy fartsy? I don't know that, sorry. :oops:
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
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"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by xenopeek »

linuxviolin wrote:Vincent, excuse me for my poor English but what means: hoity toity, artsy fartsy? I don't knows that, sorry. :oops:
Ah... Sorry, quote from the character Inspector Grim on the old BBC (UK) TV series "Thin Blue Line", a clip of him going of on a rant. Good lord, but this guy could rant :D
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by jlparsons »

I'd love to see mint follow Debian for their main distro ie mint 12, but (at risk of extreme flaming) I'd also like to see a gnome 3 spin of mint. I've used fed15 with gnome 3.0 and found it very intuitive but i prefer a debian based distro purely from familiarity, as do many I believe. Sure gnome3 is young and needs amendments but so was gnome2 once. So I guess I'm voting for mint to make DE their main offering whilst offering a gnome 3 spin to it as well.

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by xenopeek »

jlparsons wrote:I'd love to see mint follow Debian for their main distro ie mint 12, but (at risk of extreme flaming) I'd also like to see a gnome 3 spin of mint. I've used fed15 with gnome 3.0 and found it very intuitive but i prefer a debian based distro purely from familiarity, as do many I believe.
Sure, and GNOME 3.2 is looking to be much easier to configure (one-click install of themes for example). Though it isn't taking it yet in the direction I want, for anybody who has only see the default GNOME 3 Shell theme, here are a top 10 of GNOME 3 Shell themes to see what can already be done to change appearance: http://www.techdrivein.com/2011/09/top- ... hemes.html
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by AlbertP »

Ubuntu 11.10 will have Gnome 3 and the Shell in the repository so you will be able to install it easily on Mint 12. And Gnome 3 is also entering the Debian repos, the Shell is in Experimental atm.
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Re: Gnome 3 and Linux Mint 12 and Beyond...

Post by RedLeg »

ThistleWeb wrote:Haven't we had this thread already several times now?
Yes, and you have said the same thing several times now.
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by RedLeg »

It is interesting to me how developments such as Unity and Gnome 3 has changed the Mint community. LM was at one time a very novel and progressive (not to mention, wildly successful) distro but has been revealed to posses a deeply conservative and principled user base. Times are a'changin and it will be interesting to see how Clem moves forward. There will probably be a lot of hurt feelings no matter what direction LM is taken.
Last edited by RedLeg on Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by AlbertP »

Indeed, and the Mint team is too small to make seperate Gnome 2, Gnome 3, Gnome Shell and Unity editions. It's already taking some time before the KDE or LXDE edition is out, after a new Mint is released.
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