Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

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Should Linux Mint...

Maintain There Own Distro
105
34%
Follow Ubuntu
47
15%
Follow Debian
136
44%
Other (tell me in the comments)
18
6%
 
Total votes: 306

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xenopeek
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by xenopeek »

Well, a lot of users came to Linux Mint from another distro that they were dissatisfied with (at least I did). Now I'm happy with Linux Mint, and there is all this talk and FUD about changes! I just got here :evil: :lol: But seriously, once Clem works his magic on GNOME 3 a lot of us GNOME user (hopefully, please) will settle and be happy with it and moving forward just like the rest of the world.
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linuxviolin
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by linuxviolin »

xenopeek wrote:Ah... Sorry, quote from the character Inspector Grim on the old BBC (UK) TV series "Thin Blue Line", a clip of him going of on a rant. Good lord, but this guy could rant
Ah, OK. I didn't know that. :-)

About the license agreement, you have really been stopped by this? :shock: It's not the only distro with this, right? Just to give an example, Fedora has it too, although it's in the second phase of the install, after the reboot but before you can create a user. If you are really stopped by a screen about license agreement, you should not use many things, I guess... :mrgreen:
xenopeek wrote:But seriously, once Clem works his magic on GNOME 3 a lot of us GNOME user (hopefully, please) will settle and be happy with it and moving forward just like the rest of the world.
hmm, i'm not sure but we'll see. We'll see what Clem will have could do. I hope but... well, I doubt therefore I am. :lol:

As said in a review of GNOME 3 in Dedoimedo here:
Moreover, Linux Mint developers have rumored they will use Gnome 3 as a basis for their future work. Given their current success with modifying Ubuntu releases, it is fair to assume they will not follow the mainstream nonsense and focus on practicality and beauty, as they did so far. Thus, there's hope. But for now, it's a big unknown. And therefore, I must end on a somber note.

(...)

I believe Gnome 2.X will be the last version of Gnome I will be using, at least based on my current findings

(...)

Unfortunately, Gnome 3 does not have what it takes to be my desktop. And so we say goodbye. For now. Linux Mint, let's hope you can deliver. Like Princess Leia says: Help me, Linux Mint, you're my only hope. Stay tuned for updates.
:D
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

dowslandj
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by dowslandj »

I think that one of the strengths of linux mint is the fact that it follows one of the major distros like ubuntu. I like the fact that the ubuntu repositories work with mint and I think that this would be disasterous if the ubuntu repositories didn't work any more. Likewise if I get issues regarding the os I look at ubuntu solutions if mint ones are not available. (This tends to work)

Is it not possible to carry on using Ubuntu as the code base, use Gnome 3 but customise the os to mint users requirements. Therefore maintaining compatability with one of the main distros. The question(s) has to be

1. What's the point in moving to debain?
2. Does mint have the programmer base to maintain its own distro base?
3. Would users be able to use Ubuntu / Debain solutions to mint problems
4. Would the software support be limited in terms of not working with the ubuntu repositories?
5. Would this move make the linux market even more fragmented?

I feel that linux is a great OS and I am really new to it. I am trying to use it as my main OS and feel that the linux market is quite framented. To get more linux driver support and commericial development for the OS the linux community needs to look at working from a base distro and customising from there! The developers could then develop more commericial software, games, drivers and so on.

I think that linux mint is a great OS and would like it to become more mainstream / popular and be a real alternative to windows. I am trying introduce as many as my friends as possible to linux be I feel thatg further fragmentation could / might damage linux mint's user base. There are a lot of things I don't like in ubuntu and lots I do, but mint can use the base and mould mint into the OS that its users want and carry on doing the great job that the team have been doing.

Keep up the good work.

HardyH
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by HardyH »

xenopeek wrote:Well, a lot of users came to Linux Mint from another distro that they were dissatisfied with (at least I did). Now I'm happy with Linux Mint, and there is all this talk and FUD about changes! I just got here :evil: :lol: But seriously, once Clem works his magic on GNOME 3 a lot of us GNOME user (hopefully, please) will settle and be happy with it and moving forward just like the rest of the world.
You can give a broken car any shiny color, it still stays broken and won't work, nice themes won't help with Gnome 3, cause t's broken by concept for productive work and should only be used on toy devicees like tablets for internet spamming or smartassphones, if at all....

H

NicolasRobidoux
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by NicolasRobidoux »

FWIW, one of my smart grad students (a Linux and Windows developer) is quite happy with Unity. (The rest of us are waiting for the storm to pass huddled under LM11.)

HardyH
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by HardyH »

NicolasRobidoux wrote:FWIW, one of my smart grad students (a Linux and Windows developer) is quite happy with Unity. (The rest of us are waiting for the storm to pass huddled under LM11.)
One out of how many likes Unity?

H

KBD47
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by KBD47 »

I don't know if I would say I like Unity so much as got used to it. I found I could adapt to it. There was no hope for Gnome 3 though. I cannot fathom taking a very nice desktop like Gnome 2 and trying as hard as possible to make it unusable as Gnome 3. Some people may hate Unity, but at least it was not a great desktop that was trashed. Unity is really just getting started and will likely get better. In the end Ubuntu may have been wise to get off of the Gnome train, and Mint main ed. may need to as well.
My two cents.
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viper
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by viper »

KBD47 wrote: In the end Ubuntu may have been wise to get off of the Gnome train
Well ubuntu didn't really get off of the gnome train, unity still runs on gnome. I've been trying ubuntu 11.10 beta recently and unity now actually works on gnome 3 and its actually better than what it was on gnome 2, even gnome-shell I've been using it for sometime now and i can easily adapt to it and for those who don't like gnome-shell there's always fallback mode which is just like gnome 2. so i wouldn't say gnome3 is unusable but rather it as lot of potential for improvement. At least thats my point of view.
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KBD47
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by KBD47 »

I know Unity is built on Gnome shell, but it is not much like Gnome 3 at least Unity in 11.04 I understood Gnome 2 fallback in Ubuntu 11.10 is gone? I thought the new fallback is Unity 2-D?
KBD47

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xenopeek
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by xenopeek »

KBD47 wrote:I know Unity is built on Gnome shell, but it is not much like Gnome 3 at least Unity in 11.04 I understood Gnome 2 fallback in Ubuntu 11.10 is gone? I thought the new fallback is Unity 2-D?
KBD47
Yes Unity 2D is the default fallback. You can however just install GNOME fallback (i.e., with panels a plenty): http://www.liberiangeek.net/2011/08/ret ... ntu-11-10/
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zerozero
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by zerozero »

in the standard 11.10 install you get unity3d and unity2d, but gnome-shell and the fallback-mode is just one apt away: i installed the last beta2 last night just to have a look at the last shell, and although didn't had much time to play with it yet, all works pretty well so far.

Code: Select all

sudo os-prober
[sudo] password for amadeu: 
/dev/sda1:unknown Linux distribution:Linux:linux
/dev/sda10:Linux Mint Debian Edition (1):LinuxMint:linux
/dev/sda2:PCLinuxOS:PCLinuxOS:linux
/dev/sda6:Linux Mint Xfce Edition (1):LinuxMint1:linux
/dev/sda7:Ubuntu oneiric (development branch) (11.10):Ubuntu:linux
/dev/sda8:Mageia Cauldron (Cauldron):Mageia:linux
/dev/sda9:unknown Linux distribution:Linux1:linux
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[ bliss of ignorance ]

KBD47
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by KBD47 »

Thanks guys. It's useful to know that gnome 2 can still be used.
KBD47

HardyH
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by HardyH »

KBD47 wrote:Thanks guys. It's useful to know that gnome 2 can still be used.
KBD47
It's not Gnome 2, it's Gnome 3 Fallback, looking like Gnome 2, being almost as unuseable as Gnome 3. It lacks of a sane and easy configuration , lacks of context menus, requires to press the alt key to add stuff to the panels " dumb users could change panel applets incidentially" if the devs would not have hidden that . Gnome 3 in general is a heavy insult to all people who used Gnome 2 sucessfully, as the devs obvioulsy presume that their users are complete idiots who do nothing but messing up their system and it should generally be avoided due to the devs attitude.

Some examples of the Gnome devs attitude towards users can be found here: http://www.christoph-wickert.de/blog/20 ... f-the-day/.

Any Gnome 3 critisim in the Gnome 3 mailing lists by the way will be censored by Gnome's Uber-Inquisitor Olav Vitters mercilessly. This is another reason for me to turn my back on these arrogant people at Gnome.
Gnome 3, not made for people......
H.

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by KBD47 »

Gnome 3 loves that alt key doesn't it? Couldn't even shut down Gnome 3 in Fedora without using the alt key--one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of. I will probably use the last of the great Gnomes (2) in Mint 11 until it breaks to pieces on my computer. I'm running it now on my desktop computer and unless it gets seriously borked somehow it may be the last Mint installed on it. I've tried pretty much all the desktops and while i will put up with a lot on a netbook or laptop, when it comes to usefulness on a bigger screen with a mouse, it is Gnome 2, KDE, or nothing. Maybe someday I'll get hardcore and learn to use command line for everything :)
KBD47

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xenopeek
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by xenopeek »

Stop with the doomsaying already :D Gnome 3 is not standing still, neither is Linux Mint. Linux Mint 11 has support until end 2012, I'd be severely stumped and amazed if Gnome 3, and Linux Mint 14 using it, by then haven't evolved to want we want from it.

No more doomsaying please... Have a little faith :wink:
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ElderSnake
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by ElderSnake »

I have to agree with Vincent, while there are currently annoyances in Gnome3's current incarnation, it is very young and is getting more features in the future.It would be nice if it was more easily customizable out of the box from day dot but unfortunately it's not and we'll have to wait.

Some people are saying they are done with Gnome from here on in and will never use it again but hopefully they won't have cause to say such things in the near future and Gnome as a whole will appeal to more of us. :)

HardyH
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by HardyH »

xenopeek wrote:Stop with the doomsaying already :D Gnome 3 is not standing still, neither is Linux Mint. Linux Mint 11 has support until end 2012, I'd be severely stumped and amazed if Gnome 3, and Linux Mint 14 using it, by then haven't evolved to want we want from it.

No more doomsaying please... Have a little faith :wink:
I have no faith in Gnome 3 as the developers think their users are either little kids, elderly noobs or idiots. I am none of these, so I won't use their shiny functionless toy te (touchscreen environment).

H

P.S. A gnome dev said: We want to target more users with gnome 3, and in the same article he said: Gnome 3 is not for everyone, that is a contradiction that does not make any sense.
Will look up the link and post it later
Gnome 3, MAC OSX Lion and Windows 8 must Die!

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by proxima_centauri »

HardyH wrote:P.S. A gnome dev said: We want to target more users with gnome 3, and in the same article he said: Gnome 3 is not for everyone, that is a contradiction that does not make any sense.
You see, if gnome3 is not for everyone, then it follows that gnome3 is for at least some part of the population. If they wish to target more users with gnome3, it follows they have a certain group or population they aim to cater to. So, it is perfectly plausible for gnome3 dev's to target more users with gnome3; while excluding others.

In conclusion, gnome3 is not for everyone, but it is for some people - and these are the type of people that gnome3 wishes to target and adopt more of.
Of course, if it is they case that gnome3 alienates enough original gnome users, such that the population of gnome users drops, despite the addition of new gnome3 users - than we could say that they failed to fully understand the consequences of attracting new users. This could be a valid argument against the direction of gnome3, and if proven to be true in the future, provide a sound case. Be that as it may, we shouldn't dismiss these statements as a straightforward contradiction.
HardyH wrote: I have no faith in Gnome 3 as the developers think their users are either little kids, elderly noobs or idiots. I am none of these, so I won't use their shiny functionless toy te (touchscreen environment).
Now this on the other hand, is a good example of a logical fallacy - namely a false dilemma or false dichotomy.
You have defined gnome3 users as "either little kids, elderly noobs or idiots" [black]; despite there being a plethora of positive [white] or neutral [grey] gnome3 user descriptions.
You have stated because you are not X, I will not use [insert gnome3 straw man portrayal here] or have faith in the gnome3 project.
Since X (your assumption) is not categorically definitive, for aforementioned reasons, it isn't exactly clear that your conclusion should follow.

A far more effective argument would have outlined the features you find necessary for a productive desktop; the features gnome3 is missing to provide you those necessities of a productive desktop - and a conclusion on why gnome3 does not suit your needs and what could possibly be improved. It is perfectly possible to have disagreements and differences of opinion while remaining respectful and courteous. I would welcome your opinions in such a format, this is the kind of dialog that fosters productive and informational discussion and debate.

proxima_centauri

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by KBD47 »

I think the concern is this: Mint rocks as it is. It works out of the box and we can recommend it to Linux noobs with no concerns. Mint is moving much to Debian based distribution that is Not noob friendly. Well we still have the main Mint distro, oh that's right, Gnome developers have pretty much borked that, so what's left? Mint LXDE which is not bad, great for old hardware, but not as nice as Gnome 2. So many of us are scratching our heads after trying Gnome 3. I don't doubt they will improve it, they couldn't make it worse--or could they?--but we just don't want to see a great distro like main Mint drug down by the new direction of Gnome. If anyone can fix it, Mint can, but can it be fixed? And why on earth ruin a desktop (Gnome3) just to fix it anyway?
If we didn't like Mint we wouldn't care. We are not being negative just D___ protective :-)
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tdockery97
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Post by tdockery97 »

Aside from the aesthetics of Gnome 3, which many of us consider inappropriate for a fully capable laptop or desktop computer, I think one of the biggest obstacles to Gnome 3 is the fact that it just will not perform correctly on a large number of computers in use. My laptop is less than 2 years old, and on some distros running Gnome 3 the only thing that will work is the fallback mode. I cannot quote numbers, but I know from reading posts in our Mint Forums that a large number of Linux users have hardware much older than that. For this reason I feel it is somewhat irresponsible for the Gnome development team to decide that only those with "gaming" hardware should be able to use one of the most popular Linux desktops. I was a die-hard Gnome user until a couple of months ago. Fortunately I've discovered that KDE has been greatly improving lately. While KDE is in a small way following the current trend (the KDE netbook interface), at least they have the good sense to offer it as an option rather than a complete change in direction. Just my 2 cents worth.
Mint Cinnamon 19.3

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