Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

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Peter Linu
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Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by Peter Linu »

Hiyall,
My current computer works seamlessly with dual-boot Cinnamon 19.2 and Win7. Win 10 and all its complications was the reason that I sought out Linux as an alternative and I am so happy that Mint worked out, not the least of which was because of this excellent forum.
My question: is there anything to be gained by installing Win10?
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Pierre
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by Pierre »

in all reality, that win-7 is going off-line next year,
& whilst you could get another year out of that system, you shouldn't push it much past that point.

it would seem that most of the win-10 issues that I've encountered,
& whilst installing some Linux system along-side of it, was the EFI boot issue.

it was quite easy to install win-10 and LinuxMint & with both installed in ms-dos mode,
& rather than in EFI / GPT configuration .. that's not impossible, but it's also not as easy.

as for the ever increasing number of win-10 updates, that just has to to allowed for, if you want an windows system,
- it will sometimes break your machine, but in general it won't always be an issue.
even Linux has broken one of my machines, & it just had to be dealt with.

most of the time, I've no real use for any windows sytem, but I've got some running, just so I'm able to keep abreast of it,
& for when some-one, inevitably asks for Help with it.

in the past few months, I've also assisted a few folks to "upgrade" to win-10,
as they were getting some "warning notifications" from M$ about their win-7 machine.
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by Peter Linu »

"as for the ever increasing number of win-10 updates, that just has to to allowed for, if you want an windows system,
- it will sometimes break your machine, but in general it won't always be an issue."

Pierre,
You have just mentioned two issues that will keep me using Win7 for as long as possible! BTW, I know several people including a computer shop that continue to use WinXP for various software.

I tend to go with the adage: 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.'
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by jglen490 »

There's no reason to avoid UEFI - on most systems. If you are at uncertain about Windows 10 and have no particular use case for it, just go with UEFI/GPT and install Mint.

If there are any issues at all with UEFI it's entirely on how the motherboard/laptop maker implements UEFI in the firmware. In the large majority of cases, go into the UEFI setup and 1) disable Secure boot, 2) set SATA to AHCI mode, 3) insert your USB install/Live media and make sure it shows up as the first in the boot list. Then reboot with your USB stick still attached and follow the instructions. And with the instructions setup your partitions are based on a GPT scheme and that the first is an EFI (also known as ESP) partition between 100MB and 500MB (the low end is just fine). The next partitions should be /, /home, and SWAP (or a properly sized swap file, if so inclined). And then make sure to select the EFI partition (probably /dev/sda1 in this example) for the Grub boot files.
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by Peter Linu »

jglen490,
Very expansive however you misread my initial question. I don't need to know how to install Win10. I need to know whether it will add capability to my system.
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by Pierre »

well - - some time back, I'd run into an chap who was still using w98
:shock:
for some Music Software, apparently .. it wasn't on-line, though.

as well as that guy, I've also come across the odd person, that was still using win-xp,
& did point out, that they probably shouldn't be using it on-line, though.

so, you can keep on using win-7, for another year, at least, before you should really go off-line,
as you won't get any anti-virus / malware programs, to work after that date.

there is actually some ways to Limit the amount of "updates" that the win-10 system,
can download, but with some methods that are more successful, than other ways.

at some point, you will need to access your reason, for using the windows system,
& just why you do need to keep using it.

in my case, the available bandwidth has reached an point, where I've actually got some spare capacity now,
& thus have the luxury of " windows updates" being affordable .. in the past, that was always an luxury ..
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by Peter Linu »

Pierre,
The reason I am dual-booting is;
1. I have several legacy programs that I have used for well-over 10 years and don't want to have to re-learn the equivalent software in Linux. These programs are fundamental to what I do.
2. I will (almost) never use Win7 for accessing the internet. That is why I installed Mint. Linux is by far the safest of all OSs and fulfils all my needs in terms of new software. I can investigate them at my leisure and who knows, if a program matures into something I want, it will be very easy to ditch the Win7 equivalent program.

The most recent example is my use of backup software. Linux (and this forum) has taught me to use it and now I can see uncomplicated ways of doing so. I am usually very careful of what I do on the internet and my failures over ~30 years have been relatively few. I seem to have more problems with hardware failure and accordingly now rarely buy the cheapest product.
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by jglen490 »

I used to run Windows on my own system. I don't now. Learning equivalent software on Linux is not onerous, and in fact I learned that I had no real use case for anything on Windows. And that's the important point; it's the use case, not familiarity, that counts.
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by JerryF »

A couple of things are gained going from Win 7 to 10.

As already mentioned, support will end for 7 in 2020.

With new programs each year (such as TurboTax), they may not run in 7, because companies won't test to see if their programs run in 7.
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by Pierre »

2. I will (almost) never use Win7 for accessing the internet.
- - that's an Good Thing .. you can also Turn All Updates OFF in the windows settings area.
in which case, you could run win-7 for many years .. until some hardware fails, that is.

then at some point, your backup of the whole win-7 will also fail,
- as you cannot get it to run on the New Hardware - that replaced the failed hardware.
this scenario could be many years from now, though.

the Time to Set This Up - Is Now - whilst the win-7 is still an working scenario.
& then enjoy many years of OFF-Line use-age.
8)
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by jglen490 »

Peter Linu wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:12 am
jglen490,
Very expansive however you misread my initial question. I don't need to know how to install Win10. I need to know whether it will add capability to my system.
Honestly, it won't add capability, just complexity. The "legacy" programs you have on Windows. There may actually be equivalent Linux applications, in which case, the functionality of the Linux program will be the same even if some specific processes may seem unusual. Let us help with that, otherwise you will need live with the complexity of a dual boot system.
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by ZakGordon »

@Peter Linu,

I've been setting up an exact system to survive what i'm calling 'Windows 10 Apocalypse'. This is reference to all the hardware and software that MS has been pushing to make Windows 10 only. It is an active part of MS pushing everyone onto Windows 10 as fast as possible, and it involves Intel and AMD and various other hardware manufacturers going along with it (you can do some internet searches to find out about it).

All OS become old and outdated, the trouble is with everything around how MS has been acting since Windows 10 was first announced, the terrible Xbox One launch (you know, when it was revealed it was spying on your family and sending data back without your permission etc) and the whole debacle over people on Windows 7 and 8 suddenly finding their computers had updated themselves to Windows 10 without their permission (and the class action suits that followed that), it is obviously as clear as it can be, Microsoft is not a company you can trust anymore (at all).

Say you decided to run Spybot Anit-Beacon or some other tool to remove all the telemetry that Windows 10 sends home, or even if you like to take the time and trouble to do all that by hand; next time you have one of those forced updates, you can be pretty much certain ALL your security and data-gathering tweaks will have be reset back to default (which is where the tools come in handy to 'one click' give you your privacy back). This is just default MS behaviour, because guess what? Windows 10 is not 'your' OS and you don't decide how it ultimately behaves anymore you are not the paying customer, your personal data is!

Windows 10 is free (or very, very cheap) for one reason; it is first and foremost a data gathering tool and that data is worth the cost MS spends in developing the OS as it is sold at high prices to many other companies (from medical to insurance to government (obviously!)).

I'm writing all this just so you know that there are plenty of people that are not happy with how MS has acted around Windows 10, and are taking a stand. Mine started from seeing the direction shift we had under Windows 8 (one reason i stayed on 7 myself), and at that time i ended up discovering and using Linux Mint as my main point of contact with the internet. Windows 10 just confirmed everything i had began to suspect about Microsoft's corporate changes (from leadership to company ethics) and i was not going to support that change.

So for the last few years i've been doing the research and getting the parts i knew would give me a decent PC for years to come and most importantly be Windows 7 friendly. Linux Mint is obviously part of this build, for when i want to connect to the internet on that machine, but i will say you can keep your Windows 7 PC safe and well by using the windowsseven forums here:

How to prepare to survive not using Windows 10:

https://www.sevenforums.com/installatio ... dates.html

That thread is all about preparing a version of Windows 7 you can keep and install indefinitely (pretty much) without all the impossible hoops MS has since put into updating a new Windows 7 install from scratch (which most people can't actually do anymore! Even with time left on your current license).

That process is what i've used to burn (and backup) an image of my Windows 7 Pro that includes nearly all the latest updates and removes all the telemetry stuff MS has been bundling into 'security updates' these last few years for Windows 7 and 8 users. it's the perfect source for a clean Windows 7 to last for decades and that hasn't been 'infected' with all the spyware and telematry that MS has been hiding in it's updates.

As Pierre has noted hardware is becoming difficult to find (talking new PC parts) that is still Windows 7 friendly, and that is not something you can do much about except keep an eye out for second hand sales in the future if a particular piece of hardware breaks on you (or find a decent repair guy to fix it!).

Anyway sorry for the ramble. I'm just furious at Microsoft (over trying to turn all the families PC's from 7 to Windows 10 without permission!) and never ever going to run Windows 10, or any other MS OS after it again, they crossed a line and lost my custom, as simple as that.

Luckily i have a good PC setup for a Windows 7/Linux Mint dual boot for the next decade or two and will be running a detailed thread on that whole process as soon as i get everything together (probably over xmas/new year period). I'll post it in these forums as it was about exactly what your thread is asking questions about.

Check out the windowsseven link (it is a great source for help with windows 7 in general) and see if it suitable for you to also use, and good luck, we are going to need it in this New OS Fascism World Microsoft has created with Windows 10 (i'm only half joking using those words!).
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by pbear »

Peter Linu wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:51 am
I will (almost) never use Win7 for accessing the internet.
That's the issue, really. Win7 won't be safe to take on the internet after January. Otherwise, you'll be fine. Just be sure you have good image backups, as it's unlikely you'll be able to reinstall the regular way once Win7 goes end-of-life.
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by Peter Linu »

Hi ZakGordon,
Thanks for an informative and rational response. I have strongly-suspected your argument for a long time and it is why I keep my Win7 behind a dual-boot. I will return to this article (and its web references) regularly. Here's an idea; as so many of this forum will use Win7 for as long as they can, is it possible for you to create a completed, 'sanitized' Win7 for us to download as an iso once you have completed your fixes in January 2020?
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by lsemmens »

pbear wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:04 pm
Peter Linu wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:51 am
I will (almost) never use Win7 for accessing the internet.
That's the issue, really. Win7 won't be safe to take on the internet after January. Otherwise, you'll be fine. Just be sure you have good image backups, as it's unlikely you'll be able to reinstall the regular way once Win7 goes end-of-life.
Actually Windows 7 will be as "safe" as it is today to take on the internet well into next year, and beyond. It's not going to suddenly stop being as safe as it is now. Just like a model T Ford is still "safe" on the roads today. Would I use it for a daily drive - hell NO!!!! My question to the OP would be along the lines of "What is windows offering you that you CANNOT do in Linux?"
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by pbear »

lsemmens wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:47 pm
It's not going to suddenly stop being as safe as it is now.
What going to suddenly stop is security patches. Hackers know there are many users who will continue using Win7 past that date. Wouldn't surprise me if some are holding onto vulnerabilities they're already found until EOL passes. In any event, they're not going to stop looking for new ones.
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by JerryF »

lsemmens wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:47 pm
...
Actually Windows 7 will be as "safe" as it is today to take on the internet well into next year, and beyond. It's not going to suddenly stop being as safe as it is now. Just like a model T Ford is still "safe" on the roads today. Would I use it for a daily drive - hell NO!!!! My question to the OP would be along the lines of "What is windows offering you that you CANNOT do in Linux?"
That analogy shows exactly the progression of security.

A model T Ford can be driven for sure, but isn't as safe as current vehicles. One being seat belts.
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by lsemmens »

Which is why I put in the quotation marks around safe. i.e "safe" OF course there will always be new vulnerabilities found and will be so, until the "developers" of the exploits get sick of developing for that platform. Just because a product is past its "useby date" doesn't mean it's going to suddenly fall over. Heck! If I wanted to. I could still install and run DOS.

@ JerryF - my point exactly.
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by pbear »

Shrug. If the OP wants to follow your advice, that's his decision. It's still bad advice.
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Re: Dual-boot with Win7 or Win10

Post by ZakGordon »

Peter Linu wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:01 pm
Hi ZakGordon,
Thanks for an informative and rational response. I have strongly-suspected your argument for a long time and it is why I keep my Win7 behind a dual-boot. I will return to this article (and its web references) regularly. Here's an idea; as so many of this forum will use Win7 for as long as they can, is it possible for you to create a completed, 'sanitized' Win7 for us to download as an iso once you have completed your fixes in January 2020?
Well that 'safe and sanitized' Windows 7 IS what that article i linked to is! So you can already get that and start the process of creating your version (you still need your own original Windows version to base it on).

The main issue i had was i wanted to create a DVD (a Windows 7 SP2 in effect) but the image created after all the updates are added (that the script in that thread buids for you) was bigger than a regular DVD! So i had to find and use a DVD+R DL (Double Layer) which my DVD-ROM player can read (you need to check that yours does too) and gives me 8.5GB of storage vs the regular DVD's 4.8 (iirc the image was something like 4.95GB?).

You can use USB storage as well if you prefer.

As for Windows 7 'safety' using online before or after EoL, well we are talking about Windows, and after decades of experience with Windows i would say it never was a 'safe' OS. One wrong advert feed in your browser of choice and you can be infected with something. I will write more in detail later on when i post the build/install thread.
Laptop overheating issues? Check links below:
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If none of the above fixes the issue, moving from Cinnamon to XFCE will give around -5 to -10 degrees C improvements.

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