Windows is a B**** (dual-booting)

Questions about Grub, UEFI,the liveCD and the installer
Forum rules
Before you post please read how to get help
Post Reply
blitz4
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:31 am

Windows is a B**** (dual-booting)

Post by blitz4 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:13 pm

I am completely stumped on this. Oh btw, hello.
How can I get grub2 working properly and dual-boot Windows & Mint?
Any help would greatly be appreciated.

I'm having issues with my USB KB&M not working in Windows boot screen.

Here is some more details of my rig and tests that I ran:

2 HDD's, Win7 first on one, then installed Mate 18.2 on the other.
When booting into Grub2, I selected Windows as the boot option, but at the Windows login, my usb keyboard & usb mouse doesn't work, HDMI monitor works.
Can't login to Windows w/o a keyboard, tried a hard reboot,
Selected Windows via Grub2, this asked me if I want to login via safe mode, said yes, and at that login screen everything works fine.
Reboot, immediately select Windows via Grub2 everything works fine.
Then I reboot from Win7 into Mint, works fine.
Reboot from Mint into Grub2, select Windows, USB doesn't work again. Tested the above and it does work.
Reboot, ... same solution above works

My assumption is that Windows is a b**** and has to have a safe boot from it's operating system to prevent people from using anything non-Microsoft.
The problem is still not solved, so I changed some settings in the bios, now that login trick doesn't work anymore.
My assumption about Windows doesn't seem true anymore.

Then I tried to use the BIOS Boot Menu via F12 on my Gigabyte board, selected Windows, didn't work.
So I changed the BiOS to boot from the Windows Drive instead of the Linux drive, everything works fine.

I don't fully understand it, my guess is MS has some really strict boot-up procedures to enhance security?

How can I get grub2 working properly and dual-boot Windows & Mint?
Any help would greatly be appreciated.

User avatar
buffest_overflow
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 8:35 pm

Re: Windows is a B**** (dual-booting)

Post by buffest_overflow » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:28 pm

I'm interested in this thread as I'm rather new to Linux and recently abolished Win10 from my box completely. Sadly, there are a few applications I need for work and also a big chunk of my Steam game collection that require Win, so I have been considering a dual HD setup. Wine is out of the question. I don't want windows anywhere near my Linux data.

Hope gurus can chime in here, because I'm probably wrong:

If I were you I would install the systems inversely to how you have done it. The primary drive should be cleaned (2-pass zeroed out reformat, no windows "residue") and install mint as your primary OS. Set your bios to recognize this drive as the primary hard drive boot. Actually, I'd make USB or CD or whatever your live disk is #1 on the order just because if some weird loop stuff happens with grub or windows at least your bios knows to check for the external boot disk first.

Do a clean install of Win on the 2nd drive, and change the bios to ignore this HD in the boot order completely, so it is not recognized as a bootable device.

I haven't dealt with Windows7 for a while. I know that Win10 doesn't care about secureboot or even UEFI necessarily. I've been told this while on the Microsoft campus talking to a Microsoft tech right in the actual face. Despite all the scandal, you can keep legacy boot on and secureboot off without affecting windows bootups (at least I could). I hope I'm not polluting this thread with my own question, it just seems like installing Win first would cause these problems.

User avatar
Dngrsone
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:18 pm

Re: Windows is a B**** (dual-booting)

Post by Dngrsone » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:03 pm

This is an interesting problem... are you restarting the machine in between boots, or shutting down and starting back up? I'd like to see if that makes a difference in the behavior.
Try politeness; people will like you for it.

blitz4
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:31 am

Re: Windows is a B**** (dual-booting)

Post by blitz4 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:27 pm

Thanks for the replies.

Dngrsone, I'm restarting each time.
I have kept Windows as my primary boot because it's the only way I know how to make Windows boot properly.
Linux is on SATA port #0, Windows is on my port #1, don't know if that helps.

It got even worse:
I had just restarted after playing a game in Windows and forgot to press F12 to manually load up Mint, so it went directly into Windows.
Same problem with the login screen again. I then Did a hard reset, ignored the prompt for safe mode, the login screen worked.
Something screwy is going on, it feels like it's Windows, but I don't know.

I remember having a very difficult time setting up ArchLinux dual boot with Windows as well 2 years ago.
If I remember right, I had to disable UEFI for that to work, but I want it to work with UEFI.

What I would test next, not sure if it's best:
*unplug the Linux drive
*reset my bios to factory defaults (take out the battery)
*test booting Windows repeatedly to see if I get that problem again
*once convinced it works, plug in the Linux drive and boot into it via F12 or changing the boot order in the bios if needed.
*if that doesn't work at any point, reinstall Windows
*then reinstall grub2

If you have anything else to suggest me do, I'm game.

blitz4
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:31 am

Re: Windows is a B**** (dual-booting)

Post by blitz4 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:40 pm

Forgot to tell you, I ran the test.

So I have Windows as my primary, booted into that fine. Shutdown from the login screen and after booting into Windows, when booting directly into windows, that worked fine.
Shutdown from Windows again.
Then I tried Changing my primary boot drive to the Linux drive, and once grub2 loaded, I selected Linux.
Shutdown inside of Mint.
After grub loaded again, I selected Windows, same login screen problem.
I can only do a hard-reset at this point. So I did that.
When grub loaded again, I selected Windows ignored safe mode, and the login screen worked fine.

User avatar
Pierre
Level 19
Level 19
Posts: 9147
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:33 am
Location: Perth, AU.

Re: Windows is a B**** (dual-booting)

Post by Pierre » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:46 pm

when you are dual_booting, then then each Operating System is usually not aware of any other system.
- except when you tell it to search for & list any other system in some boot menu.
like when you perform s update-grub command.

most Linux systems are able to access a windows system, but, not the other way.

so, if you are having issues when booting into win-7,
then that is primary a windows issue, & nothing to to do dual_booting.

now, I've had this sort of situation, before, were the windows system worked fine,
with a USB KB & M setup, but then failed, after installing a 2nd operating system.
- by themselves, both systems could use the USB KB & M, but not together. ..
somehow, someway, the dual_boot was breaking the link between the BIOS & the USB KB ..

& the only way around this, was to use an older style PS2 KB & the USB Mouse ..

so, the windows system, does seem to have a direct link between itself & the BIOS setup.
- by itself, the windows system works just fine.
but, just not with any other operating system.

what you could try, it to set it as working, with Windows only.
- check that still works, ok.
boot again with the Linux system now connected,
But - - do a Full Shutdown - - between each system boot-up,
and see what the difference is, between that ( cold start ) and just a re-boot ( warm start ).
Image
Please edit your original post title to include [SOLVED] - when your problem is solved!
and DO LOOK at those Unanswered Topics - - you may be able to answer some!.

User avatar
gold_finger
Level 9
Level 9
Posts: 2886
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:39 pm

Re: Windows is a B**** (dual-booting)

Post by gold_finger » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:09 pm

Dngrsone wrote:This is an interesting problem
Yes it is -- don't think I've ever heard of this happening before. Very strange!

@ blitz4,

Don't really think this is result of any MS dirty tricks. If it were, many others would have reported similar issues. Suggest we start by trying to eliminate simplest possible explanations for problem before messing with Bios further or trying any re-installations.
  • Are your keyboard and mouse attached directly to USB port on computer, or are they plugged into some intermediary device which is then plugged into a port on the computer? If not directly attached to computer, try doing that and see if problem goes away.
  • If they are plugged directly into computer, try using different USB ports. Maybe the one(s) they are currently plugged into are having problems.
  • Are you using a lesser known brand of keyboard and mouse? What is exact name/model# of keyboard and mouse you are using?
  • If they are a wireless USB connected keyboard and mouse, do you have fresh batteries to test in them and see if maybe that is the problem?
EDIT: After typing out my reply and before posting it, I see that Pierre has seen this before. I guess if none of the above apply here, solution is to do as he said:
Pierre wrote:now, I've had this sort of situation, before, were the windows system worked fine,
with a USB KB & M setup, but then failed, after installing a 2nd operating system.
- by themselves, both systems could use the USB KB & M, but not together. ..
somehow, someway, the dual_boot was breaking the link between the BIOS & the USB KB ..

the only way around this, was to use an older style PS2 KB & the USB Mouse ..



buffest_overflow wrote:If I were you I would install the systems inversely to how you have done it. The primary drive should be cleaned (2-pass zeroed out reformat, no windows "residue") and install mint as your primary OS....

Do a clean install of Win on the 2nd drive, and change the bios to ignore this HD in the boot order completely, so it is not recognized as a bootable device.

..., it just seems like installing Win first would cause these problems.
My opinion, think it is too early to resort to re-installing everything. Highly doubt this problem is due to Windows being installed first, or related to which drive it is installed on. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of dual-boot installs are done by adding Mint to systems that already have Windows on it. Something strange is definitely going on with blitz4's system, but it doesn't appear to be a commonly experienced problem, (at least not that I've seen in the past few years). (See "EDIT" above -- appears Pierre has run into this before.)
buffest_overflow wrote:I haven't dealt with Windows7 for a while. I know that Win10 doesn't care about secureboot or even UEFI necessarily. I've been told this while on the Microsoft campus talking to a Microsoft tech right in the actual face. Despite all the scandal, you can keep legacy boot on and secureboot off without affecting windows bootups (at least I could).
Don't know if UEFI vs. Legacy boot issues are related to blitz4's situation, but from what has been posted so far this does not seem to be the case.

To clear up any possible confusion, it is true that (64-bit versions of) Windows can be installed and booted in either UEFI or Legacy mode; but, once installed in either mode you can not simply change boot modes and have it boot in the other mode -- that won't work. If dual booting with Mint, it is best to install both OSs in the same mode; but it is possible to install Mint in Legacy mode on a drive that boots Windows in UEFI mode. The reverse is not possible -- Windows can't be installed in Legacy mode to a drive where Mint is installed in UEFI mode.
buffest_overflow wrote:I hope I'm not polluting this thread with my own question
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see a question on your part to answer. Did you forget to ask it?
Please add [SOLVED] to your thread if a solution is found. Go to your first post in the thread, hit "Edit" button and add [SOLVED] to the title of the post.

How To Format Your Forum Posts.

Try Linux Beginner Search Engine for Linux questions.

blitz4
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:31 am

Re: Windows is a B**** (dual-booting)

Post by blitz4 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:20 pm

Thank you. I feel like Wayne & Garth right now lol

I did some digging before I asked. Found some very old mention of people having this problem and their solution was to unplug the Linux drive when they weren't using it so Windows would boot up properly, then plug in the drive once Windows boots, with the computer running. That seems silly and risky. Just found another one from 2014: here. -- (Back then in 2014, possibly they could've asked on Microsoft's forums, when Win7 was still in Mainstream support, but now only security updates are supported iirc.) BTW, I have no problem changing the subject of the thread, hell, I'll even do it after solved. That was simply what I said aloud when I originally got it working (after re-booting directly from Windows Safe Mode)

Also I wanted to mention, not sure if it matters, I only used 2 partitions to setup Mint, root & swap. (To minimize wasted HDD space and easily resize partitions after install.)
And I did install Win7 in UEFI mode as well, if that helps.
Pierre wrote:now, I've had this sort of situation, before, were the windows system worked fine,
with a USB KB & M setup, but then failed, after installing a 2nd operating system.
- by themselves, both systems could use the USB KB & M, but not together. ..
somehow, someway, the dual_boot was breaking the link between the BIOS & the USB KB ..

& the only way around this, was to use an older style PS2 KB & the USB Mouse ..

so, the windows system, does seem to have a direct link between itself & the BIOS setup.
- by itself, the windows system works just fine.
but, just not with any other operating system.

what you could try, it to set it as working, with Windows only.
- check that still works, ok.
boot again with the Linux system now connected,
But - - do a Full Shutdown - - between each system boot-up,
and see what the difference is, between that ( cold start ) and just a re-boot ( warm start ).
I wish I still kept my old PS/2 KB & Mice. I bet you're right and that would work fine. Hell, my HDMI port doesn't work at all when installing mint, until nVidia drivers are installed post-install, and HDMI also interferes with setting up audio after installation. To avoid a black-screen, I have to add nomodeset to the livecd boot option so I can do the Install at all via VGA on my 2nd monitor. Anyway, that's likely an unrelated can of worms.
So, yes, PS/2 makes sense to me. I can't test that though. I'll also be sure to always do a cold boot.
gold_finger wrote:Don't really think this is result of any MS dirty tricks. If it were, many others would have reported similar issues. Suggest we start by trying to eliminate simplest possible explanations for problem before messing with Bios further or trying any re-installations.
  • Are your keyboard and mouse attached directly to USB port on computer, or are they plugged into some intermediary device which is then plugged into a port on the computer? If not directly attached to computer, try doing that and see if problem goes away.
  • If they are plugged directly into computer, try using different USB ports. Maybe the one(s) they are currently plugged into are having problems.
  • Are you using a lesser known brand of keyboard and mouse? What is exact name/model# of keyboard and mouse you are using?
  • If they are a wireless USB connected keyboard and mouse, do you have fresh batteries to test in them and see if maybe that is the problem?
Yes. No, they're directly plugged into PC via the usb2.0 ports in the back. There is nothing plugged into the 6x usb3.0 ports. Here's the mobo, keyboard, mouse, and gpu if it matters. (FYI, I don't use that Logitech Mouse). From my experience, I consider Logitech a lesser brand, but the mouse should work.

EDIT: After typing out my reply and before posting it, I see that Pierre has seen this before. I guess if none of the above apply here, solution is to do as he said:
Pierre wrote:now, I've had this sort of situation, before, were the windows system worked fine,
with a USB KB & M setup, but then failed, after installing a 2nd operating system.
- by themselves, both systems could use the USB KB & M, but not together. ..
somehow, someway, the dual_boot was breaking the link between the BIOS & the USB KB ..

the only way around this, was to use an older style PS2 KB & the USB Mouse ..
*I'm going to test the USB3.0 ports
*then look for other KB&M in my garage to test further
Also if there's some hidden link, I'll test breaking that link by unplugging the Mint HDD. The issue I feel from doing that is it'll work fine. Because, I would shutdown the PC via Windows then bootup via Windows. It's when I shutdown via Mint and boot into Windows that the problem occurs.
*So, I'll test: shutdown in Mint, unplug the Mint drive (and change the boot priorities if needed)

hcentaur13
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 5:13 pm

Re: Windows is a B**** (dual-booting)

Post by hcentaur13 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:59 am

Sincs about 10 years or so the BIOS is coming with 2 incompatible modea:
- plain old DOS-Mode
- modern UEFI mode.

Plain old DOS mode has lots of limits:
- HD and partition size limited to 2 TB in totalinstall-
- max. 3 partitions where one of them can be a container holding logical drive
boot can be done only on track 0, sector 0, known as MBR.

UEFI mode without limits on size of HD and number of partitions and theyre size.
to boot from it a little partition in FAT32 with a directory for each bootable OS on it is needed. The partition table is written in GPT mode and incompatible to DOS mode too.

The boot modes are incompatible together.

So, if you install one OS in UEFI mode you have to install each and any OS in UEFI mode too.

The simplest way to install an OS is too boot its installer in either DOS or UEFI mode - there is no difference between windos 7/8/8.1/10 and linux. The installer will dedect in whixch mode it is booted in and use that right for the sdystem it installs.

Windows is inolerant to other OSes!. The easiest way is to install it first and linux therafter using the same boot method as windos.

Grub will dedect the installed windows and installs a menue that can boot windows in option to linux. When there is a need to install windows after linux is already installed and/or grub is disfunctional having supergrub2 installed on a stick or CD is helpful. Boot with supergrub2 into the already installed linux and in a terminal
sudo grub-install /dev/sda
sudo update-grub

The given sample is for DOS mode - for UEFI see man grub-install.

User avatar
buffest_overflow
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 8:35 pm

Re: Windows is a B**** (dual-booting)

Post by buffest_overflow » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:08 am

buffest_overflow wrote:I hope I'm not polluting this thread with my own question
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see a question on your part to answer. Did you forget to ask it?
Perhaps I did! I'm really just wondering if one should even bother with having two separate physical drives, one with Win10 and one with Linux. It seems on some threads that this is ill advised.
Right now, I am leaning toward installing a different distro (maybe) on my 2nd physical drive, and committing 8gb of memory to a VirtualBox install of Win10. This would allay my fears that Windows was doing things when I didn't want it to. After going into win debug mode and dismantling Win10 twice, I don't feel terribly secure about it. I'm no hacker, but I know weird stuff I didn't ask for when I see it.

So right now I'm just hoping I can get the functinality I need from a VM'ed version of Win10, some games, some apps. I recovered 32gb of barely used hynix DDR-L RAM that some dev didn't want. Researched every micron of it; Is isn't the best RAM, but there's lots of it, and it was going to be trashed. I'm very much into saving machines and getting the most out of them. Thank you for your help!

User avatar
Sgthawker
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:23 am

Re: Windows is a B**** (dual-booting)

Post by Sgthawker » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:07 am

FWIW, I install windows 7 in UEFI mode on one drive with other not connected. I then install LM in UEFI mode on another with windows drive disconnected. I have two separate ESP partitions on different drives. I then reconnect both drives, set LM drive as 1st in boot order, and run sudo update-grub. LM's grub now sees the win install's ESP and adds it to grub. If I have problems I can disconnect either drive and the existing ESP will boot the appropriate OS. It has worked fine for some time now with both drives connected.
LM 18.3 KDE/LM 19.1 Cinnamon/Peppermint 10 KDEneon UEFI on Sabertooth Z170 S, i6700K, Echelon GTX950, Samsung 970 Pro M.2 NVMe
LM 19.1 Cinnamon UEFI on Asus ROG STRIX laptop, i7700 HQ, GTX 1060, Samsung 970 Pro M.2 NVMe

User avatar
gold_finger
Level 9
Level 9
Posts: 2886
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:39 pm

Re: Windows is a B**** (dual-booting)

Post by gold_finger » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:32 am

buffest_overflow wrote:I'm really just wondering if one should even bother with having two separate physical drives, one with Win10 and one with Linux.
It really just boils down to personal preference. Either way is fine. Some people like to keep Windows disk untouched and install Linux on separate drive (including grub boot loader) so the Windows disk will boot on its own if something goes wrong in Linux. If you don't use Windows much and designating a whole drive for it winds up being just a waste of space, then nothing wrong with shrinking its partitions and installing Linux on same drive.
buffest_overflow wrote:It seems on some threads that this is ill advised.
Perhaps that may have been the case for some specific reasons on those threads, but generally speaking it's not a problem dual booting either on same or separate disk from Windows.
buffest_overflow wrote:So right now I'm just hoping I can get the functinality I need from a VM'ed version of Win10, some games, some apps.
I'd recommend you test functionality of programs/games you want to run in VM of Windows before actually getting rid of bare metal install of Windows. Also, consider making an installation USB for Windows before getting rid of it just in case you later need to re-install it for some reason.
Please add [SOLVED] to your thread if a solution is found. Go to your first post in the thread, hit "Edit" button and add [SOLVED] to the title of the post.

How To Format Your Forum Posts.

Try Linux Beginner Search Engine for Linux questions.

User avatar
buffest_overflow
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 8:35 pm

Re: Windows is a B**** (dual-booting)

Post by buffest_overflow » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:14 pm

gold_finger wrote:
buffest_overflow wrote:I'm really just wondering if one should even bother with having two separate physical drives, one with Win10 and one with Linux.
It really just boils down to personal preference. Either way is fine. Some people like to keep Windows disk untouched and install Linux on separate drive (including grub boot loader) so the Windows disk will boot on its own if something goes wrong in Linux. If you don't use Windows much and designating a whole drive for it winds up being just a waste of space, then nothing wrong with shrinking its partitions and installing Linux on same drive.
buffest_overflow wrote:It seems on some threads that this is ill advised.
Perhaps that may have been the case for some specific reasons on those threads, but generally speaking it's not a problem dual booting either on same or separate disk from Windows.
buffest_overflow wrote:So right now I'm just hoping I can get the functinality I need from a VM'ed version of Win10, some games, some apps.
I'd recommend you test functionality of programs/games you want to run in VM of Windows before actually getting rid of bare metal install of Windows. Also, consider making an installation USB for Windows before getting rid of it just in case you later need to re-install it for some reason.
Thank you gold_finger, all good advice. I will definitely try a VM'ed Win10 first. Likely, on the second drive. Right now relationships between the two OS cultures are at a n all time low. I do have bootables for all my OSes. I learned that the hard way! Cheers.

Post Reply

Return to “Installation & Boot”