This may be a show stopper....

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hyperdrive
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This may be a show stopper....

Post by hyperdrive » Sun May 31, 2009 7:57 pm

Okay, so I happily took the plunge and upgraded from Felicia to Gloria (Main Edition)

The install itself went perfectly smooth, until it came time to reboot. Upon boot I see the new splash screen loader (nice looking, btw :) ) and here is where the trouble begins...

I am greeted with a corrupted login screen in which the screen is garbled, cut in half and colorized wrong. I can not type anything, nor can switch using ALT+Fx to reach a text console. The system must be cold-rebooted using the power button.

Now I am not one to give up that easy so I try to boot into recovery console using grub: I select text mode so I can do some troubleshooting, and the system asks me for my root password. Now I DID create one and I did write it down, however the system stubbornly refuses to accept my root password.

So I get on my friends Windows PC and do some searching, and I read about how Gloria sets the root password to the password of the main user... So I try that on my system and it doesn't take my user password either. So I can not log-in to the recovery console. :?

Next I use grub to boot into runlevel 3 (a maneuver that only occurred to me after an hour of meditation :P )... I login as my normal user and begin waiving my sudo wand around as I attempt to find what the problem is. I uninstall and re-install the drivers from Envy to no effect... I also try xfix and fixing broken packages, no go.

I do notice that if I uninstall the fglrx drivers and simply use vesa, the system can boot but then I have no graphics acceleration; an unacceptable solution.

I next attempted to download the ATI linux drivers from their website. However when attempting to run their driver installer, I am greeted with this error message:
Error: ./default_policy.sh does not support version
default:v2:i686:lib::none:2.6.28-11-generic; make sure that the version is being
correctly set by --iscurrentdistro
Upon googling for an answer, I discover that this is because Gloria/Jaunty use a newer version of xorg, which ATI does not support in their drivers (9.3).... and if I downloaded the newest 9.5 drivers for linux than for some ridiculous reason, my video card is no longer supported!?

So it appears that in my excitement over Gloria being released, I have in essence screwed my well working Felicia system. :cry:

Now here's the thing...

I'm not even that angry about messing up my system... that's part of the Linux experience; what really gets my blood boiling is the mutual disregard for anyone not on the very bleeding edge of hardware, being shunned away in the name of progress. The video card I have is an ATI Radeon XPress X1100... not the best card on the market, but not obsolete either. It can happily run Unreal Tournament 2004 of max settings with very little hiccups. The laptop itself is less than a year old (bought it shortly after Christmas '08) and for me to be cut off like this is infuriating.

So I guess for the moment I need to roll back to Felicia if possible, and I have no idea how to do that first of all... but honestly: What am I supposed to do when Felicia is no longer supported?? I don't intend to buy a new laptop anytime soon. (I have barely broken in this one yet!)

Sorry, this is turning into a rant which was not my intent... It just seems like the spirit of Linux (supporting older hardware better) is dying a sad death here, and my hardware isn''t even that old.

--- Dazed and Confused, and not sure what to do next...
Hyperdrive.

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richyrich
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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by richyrich » Sun May 31, 2009 8:31 pm

I wish you could post this on ATI's site, in fact, I wish that everyone who has been blatantly shunned by ATI, call, email, etc. etc. until AMD/ATI have to take notice!

I've been watching the mint & *buntu forums, and you are not alone . . :cry:

my sympathies to you all . . you don't know what you are missing in Mint 7 :D

regards, Richard, and good luck, who knows, maybe they WILL take notice . . .

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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by Husse » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:09 pm

Yes ATI has made a very bad decision to support only the newest cards with the Catalyst driver and leave the rest to some legacy driver
I have to bring this sad news a lot now
And note that this is not only for Linux but for Windows too
Sales too low?
If they think this will get people to buy a new card I think they are mistaken
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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by markcynt » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:07 pm

Husse wrote:Yes ATI has made a very bad decision to support only the newest cards with the Catalyst driver and leave the rest to some legacy driver
I have to bring this sad news a lot now
And note that this is not only for Linux but for Windows too
Sales too low?
If they think this will get people to buy a new card I think they are mistaken
I've never had an ATI chip but with all of the stuff like this I've been reading on this forum and another that I visit, ATI won't be permitted anywhere near my machine.
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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by hyperdrive » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:58 pm

I can guarantee you that I will never buy another ATI card *unless the open source drivers are amazing and assured to work*

I was on the ATI forums among many others that were complaining, and the response from an official there was:
The card is two years old, that's the life of a computer
I guess they expect us all to buy a new computer every two years. Hahaha Unless they also agree to send me a $1,000 check every two years, they just lost my business forever. :roll:
Last edited by hyperdrive on Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by markcynt » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:08 pm

I've never had an ATI chip but with all of the stuff like this I've been reading on this forum and another that I visit, ATI won't be permitted anywhere near my machine.
On the flip side of this, most of what I read about nVidia and their Linux support is positive, sometimes glowing.
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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by kei84 » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:48 pm

Hyperdrive,

I have a Sharp notebook with ATI Xpress 1100, which I believe is the same as yours.

Did you try to make a fresh install of Gloria instead of upgrading from Felicia? Cause I did a fresh install of Gloria and its workings really great. In fact, it`s working even better than Felicia.

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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by hyperdrive » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:21 am

kei84 wrote:Hyperdrive,

I have a Sharp notebook with ATI Xpress 1100, which I believe is the same as yours.

Did you try to make a fresh install of Gloria instead of upgrading from Felicia? Cause I did a fresh install of Gloria and its workings really great. In fact, it`s working even better than Felicia.
My card is officially listed as a ATI Radeon Xpress x1150
Now lspci in Linux, lists my card as ATI Technologies Inc RS482 [Radeon Xpress 200]


I believe both are correct as I think lspci is listing the internal model number for the card. And the RS400 series is directly in the middle of the cards discontinued by ATI.

To answer your question, no I never did try a fresh install because after trying to fix it for two days and endless googling for answers, I came to a point where I needed to do work on the machine and just needed it to function.

However I would be curious how you managed to get your card working as yours is even older than mine and I was unable to even get the drivers to install properly due to the newer xorg version not being compatible with the 9.3 drivers. Are you using the open source "ati" driver? I tried that one too and it crashed my xorg repeatedly. Please let me know!

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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by emorrp1 » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:20 am

Well, I'm using the open-source driver for my X1600 (the R500 series) in Gloria, and for the first time dual-screen works! The original rant should be directed directly at ATI, they do support X.org 7.4, but only for the newer cards, which is ridiculous. Also, a messed up X is another very likely outcome of a not recommended "upgrade" path, It's **always** better to fresh install wherever possible. I noticed in your other thread, you ended up re-installing anyway, you could probably have fresh installed gloria and had no problems with the opensource driver, but as always, there's nothing to force you to upgrade. If you're happy with felicia, it'll be supported until this time next year, at which point the next LTS will have been released, and there'll have been another year of driver development since ATI released the full hardware specs, so it should be a much more stable system.
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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by tsimonc » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:24 am

This is one of the few reasons why I don't touch ati cards, always nvidia main prob is sli though it makes me cry.
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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by kei84 » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:05 am

Hey hypedrive,

lspci shows ATI Technologies Inc RS480 in my notebook.

I was using Felicia and made a fresh install of Gloria here. I never liked to make direct upgrade.
Everything was detected by default: ATI, wireless, sound,...
I didn`t have to touch anything. I suggest you do try a fresh install too cause it doesn`t make much sense that Gloria works in my machine and not in yours.

The only issue I have is with Brasero. I can burn CD/DVD but I can`t copy them. I think its a bug of Brasero with Gloria.
I had a trouble with sound in Skype as well but I solved it by installing skype-static. Now webcam and mic works fine in Skype.

I`m curious with your case. Please, let me know if you try a fresh install.

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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by hyperdrive » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:02 pm

kei84 wrote:Hey hypedrive,

lspci shows ATI Technologies Inc RS480 in my notebook.

I was using Felicia and made a fresh install of Gloria here. I never liked to make direct upgrade.
Everything was detected by default: ATI, wireless, sound,...
I didn`t have to touch anything. I suggest you do try a fresh install too cause it doesn`t make much sense that Gloria works in my machine and not in yours.

The only issue I have is with Brasero. I can burn CD/DVD but I can`t copy them. I think its a bug of Brasero with Gloria.
I had a trouble with sound in Skype as well but I solved it by installing skype-static. Now webcam and mic works fine in Skype.

I`m curious with your case. Please, let me know if you try a fresh install.
That is fascinating... I had two issues in my upgrade of Gloria the video issues which you already know, and also the broken ACPI... (my laptop could not suspend or hibernate in Gloria, works in Felicia).

If you believe that these could be fixed with a fresh install, then I will try it tomorrow, but I would like to know what to do ahead of time. :wink: Since you say that you didn't have to touch anything, does this mean that you are using the open source video drivers, or did Gloria install the restricted driver for you from Envy?

Also, do you have any issues with suspend/resume/hibernate in your notebook? Let me know....
I have a Gloria install disc sitting on my desk, just hesitant to use it.

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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by kei84 » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:34 pm

Hyperdrive,

as I said I didn`t have to touch anything. Everything worked by defaut. I use the opensource video driver. I didn`t have to install anything.

I`m using compiz with cube effect and everything just fine. The sound is fine too.

Most part of the day I let it suspended and have no problem.

As I said I have no complains about Gloria.

I`m really curious now. I believe a fresh install will solve all the problems for you.

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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by hyperdrive » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:13 pm

Well, in doing more research on this issue, I have discovered a couple more things which I will share below:

1.: The open source "ati" (aiglx) driver performs better than the proprietary fglrx driver for 2d composite graphics, however when it comes to 3d graphics, it lags behind quite a bit (confirmed here & here)
3D Gaming performance is important to me, as once a week a bunch of us get together for some matches in Unreal Tournament. I am not keen on trading those friendly get-togethers just to have the most recent xorg. :|


2.: I 've also come across a bug report listing what I have been suspecting. There is a bug in Jaunty using the open source ati drivers with the Radeon Xpress x1150 (RS482) that causes suspend to no longer work. You can read the bug report here

So I think for now I am going to stick with Felicia since everything is working well.

Honestly I am a bit disappointed that Felicia will only be supported for another year. I am not fond of having to reformat every year, and I might be willing to pay a retainer to receive updates for Felicia, if something like that was available. :wink:

I know that Elyssa was a LTS release, but Elyssa had problems on my system too, and obviously Gloria does. It appears that Felicia is the one true winning version for my system, and I hate the idea of Felicia support stopping after one year.

I guess when the security updates run out, I will see how natively secure Linux really is. 8) Or maybe by then, the bugs will have been fixed in whatever version is most current.

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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by kei84 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:13 pm

I saw those links that you posted Hyperdrive.

I can`t tell you if this lag is present in my system because I don`t use my notebook for gaming. For this I use my PS3.

But it seems that many people are having issue with 3d gaming performance.

The only reason I upgraded to Felicia was because of some problems with Inkscape, GIMP and SCIM imput I was having.

If Felicia is working fine in your system, I don`t see why you should upgrade. We all know that Linux can be sentimental and work fine in a system and have some annoying bugs in another.

If you make an upgrade, please let me know.

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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by emorrp1 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:23 pm

note that the first of the "confirmations" is really old, the opensource driver has come a long way since AMD released the hardware specs for better development. Granted it still has a long way to go, but now that AMD have dropped support for these cards, I suspect they'll be high up on the priority, so I expect much better drivers for mint 8.
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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by hyperdrive » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:01 pm

emorrp1 wrote:note that the first of the "confirmations" is really old, the opensource driver has come a long way since AMD released the hardware specs for better development. Granted it still has a long way to go, but now that AMD have dropped support for these cards, I suspect they'll be high up on the priority, so I expect much better drivers for mint 8.
I do hope so... but 3d performance aside... I am watching that second issue extremely closely. If that bug with Jaunty suspend and the RS482 carries over into the next version, that is an automatic deal breaker for me. I suspend & hibernate my laptop quite often as I carry it around, and even if I leave my desk.

kei84, If you are curious, there are a few open source 3d games in the repos that you could try (OpenArena is a good one) and see what the gaming performance is like on the ati driver.

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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by emorrp1 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:12 pm

Given all the work being done on boot time optimisation, it seems a bit old-fashioned to hibernate. My laptop (ext4 gloria) boots to login in 19 seconds (add maybe 5 seconds to usable desktop), and I believe canonical are targetting sub-10 seconds for karmic. When it's that fast, you may as well just shut down properly in my opinion, I can't really see any reason to hibernate (Except of course if your system takes longer to boot).
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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by kei84 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:56 pm

I keep my notebook suspended/hybernating most part of the day.

I only shutdown when I`m not gonna use it for hours like in the end of the day. I let on my desk at work and when I have to do something else I just suspend it.

Hyperdrive, I`try the game you suggested to solve my curiosity. I`ll try this weekend and then I`ll post the results here.

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Re: This may be a show stopper....

Post by hyperdrive » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:22 pm

emorrp1 wrote:Given all the work being done on boot time optimisation, it seems a bit old-fashioned to hibernate. My laptop (ext4 gloria) boots to login in 19 seconds (add maybe 5 seconds to usable desktop), and I believe canonical are targetting sub-10 seconds for karmic. When it's that fast, you may as well just shut down properly in my opinion, I can't really see any reason to hibernate (Except of course if your system takes longer to boot).
It's not just about boot time... When you hibernate, you can still have whatever documents that you are working on & webpages all kept open. It's basically meant to be a longer suspend without the slight drain on the battery that suspend still brings. Plus it is incredibly useful for the system to hibernate when the battery charge becomes critically low, to avoid data loss.

kei84: Yes I'd be interested to know the performance that you get so please do post back after you try the game. :)

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