Proposed new build 2400G + SSD drive

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rev667
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Proposed new build 2400G + SSD drive

Post by rev667 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:48 am

Hi

I am about to purchase and build the following system...

AMD Ryzen 5 2400G 3.6GHz Quad Core (Socket AM4)
MSI B350M GAMING PRO AMD Socket AM4 Motherboard
Corsair Vengeance LPX 16GB (2x 8GB) 3200MHz DDR4
Samsung 970 EVO 250GB M.2-2280 SSD

But I have been scanning the various forums etc. and am a little worried that my idea of a dual boot machine may be a little difficult to do.

My intention was to build system, install Windows 10 (needed for work cad, plc/hmi stuff)
resize the M.2 drive to create space, and install Mint from USB (or DVD if needed)
This normally puts grub on the boot disk so I get to choose at boot time.

However there appears to be a lot of confusion about dual booting win10 and mint on a NVME drive with many saying it is difficult to get working, which makes me hesitant. Some kind of tutorial would help.

If I do manage to get this to work and dual boot, I then see other problems with the Ryzen APU support, many threads seem to indicate it's not a straightforward thing to do. Again a tutorial or walk-through would be a great help.

My head is buzzing with all the technical terms, legacy booting, ufi booting, nvme partitions, graphics drivers for Ryzen APUs etc.

Please help.

My default grub on this old PC is Mint, used it for years and love it (even if it looks a bit childish sometimes)


Thanks Rev

BTW my current PC is a core2duo, very old lol
Last edited by rev667 on Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kernel: 4.18.8-041808-generic x86_64
Linux Mint 19 Tara Cinnamon 3.8.9
Mobo: MSI B350M GAMING PRO
CPU: Quad core AMD Ryzen 5 2400G with Vega Graphics
Graphics: [AMD/ATI] Vega - 1920x1080@60hz
OpenGL: AMD RAVEN Mesa 18.3.0-devel

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catweazel
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Re: Proposed new build 2400G + NVME drive

Post by catweazel » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:53 am

rev667 wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:48 am
However there appears to be a lot of confusion about dual booting win10 and mint on a NVME drive with many saying it is difficult to get working...
It's patently false.
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Re: Proposed new build 2400G + NVME drive

Post by rev667 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:16 am

Thanks Catweazel, that explains a lot :)
Kernel: 4.18.8-041808-generic x86_64
Linux Mint 19 Tara Cinnamon 3.8.9
Mobo: MSI B350M GAMING PRO
CPU: Quad core AMD Ryzen 5 2400G with Vega Graphics
Graphics: [AMD/ATI] Vega - 1920x1080@60hz
OpenGL: AMD RAVEN Mesa 18.3.0-devel

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Re: Proposed new build 2400G + NVME drive

Post by catweazel » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:19 am

rev667 wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:16 am
Thanks Catweazel, that explains a lot :)
You're welcome :)

There's a thread here you may be interested in: viewtopic.php?f=49&t=272140&hilit=2400G

Cheers.
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Re: Proposed new build 2400G + NVME drive

Post by rev667 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:03 am

Thanks,
I did read that thread, it seems support for the Ryzen APU is still a bit unstable there are a lot of things to do. Not just a case of Mint working out of the box so to speak, upgrading kernels, updating 'graphics stack' ? Looks more complex than I anticipated.
As for the dual boot issue, it seems I'll have to be careful and not let mint do it automatically, then change the boot device from sda to nvme and a bunch of numbers, again not simple to my old head.

I'll wait until I get the kit (when the cheque clears, e-on owe me almost a grand!)

I'll post my attempts, it might help simplify the process.

I'm old enough to remember suse 6.3 and the beautiful books/manuals on floppies, bring back lilo haha

rev
Kernel: 4.18.8-041808-generic x86_64
Linux Mint 19 Tara Cinnamon 3.8.9
Mobo: MSI B350M GAMING PRO
CPU: Quad core AMD Ryzen 5 2400G with Vega Graphics
Graphics: [AMD/ATI] Vega - 1920x1080@60hz
OpenGL: AMD RAVEN Mesa 18.3.0-devel

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Re: Proposed new build 2400G + NVME drive

Post by catweazel » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:34 am

rev667 wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:03 am
Thanks,
I did read that thread, it seems support for the Ryzen APU is still a bit unstable there are a lot of things to do. Not just a case of Mint working out of the box so to speak, upgrading kernels, updating 'graphics stack' ? Looks more complex than I anticipated.
As for the dual boot issue, it seems I'll have to be careful and not let mint do it automatically, then change the boot device from sda to nvme and a bunch of numbers, again not simple to my old head.
If your plan is to install linux on the HDD rather than the SSD then you might be better off leaving the linux boot device at sda. That way it won't interfere with Windwoes 10's boot loader. To boot into linux you merely press your machine's boot key. Perhaps F8, F10, F12 or Del. The motherboard manual will tell you.
rev667 wrote: I'm old enough to remember suse 6.3 and the beautiful books/manuals on floppies, bring back lilo haha
lol - I'm old enough to remember this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_delay_line
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Re: Proposed new build 2400G + NVME drive

Post by lsemmens » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:21 am

I cut my teeth on This sort of stuff :D

Keep us posted on your build. Most of my machines are about the same vintage of your old one. :D
Kernel: 4.15.0-36-generic x86_64 bits: 64
Desktop: Cinnamon 3.8.9
Distro: Linux Mint 19 Tara

Laptop T4500 Dualcore 4Gb RAM
Server AMD Phenom 9650 - GEForce 9400GT 6Gb RAM
+ three other Linux Mint machines
Out of my mind - please leave a message

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Re: Proposed new build 2400G + NVME drive

Post by rev667 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:25 am

Ah the heady days of early computing...

Me and a mate clubbed together to get a Cambridge MK14, never got it working totally reliably.
I moved on to a ZX80 then the ZX81 (rampack wobble)
And of course the speccy :)
At work we had a CPM86 system in an S100 bus chasis for blowing eproms for CNC machine tools, and a windowsill for clearing them lol
Jeez the memories.
Gawping at the Commodore PET and TRS-80 in Radio Shack
Working on a Prime minicomputer running Primos and early CAD
Moving to VAX and Sun boxes (fantastic bits of kit for the time)
Eventually Linux swayed me as more 'nix like than windblows hence the boxed set of SuSe 6.3 with amazing manuals (still handy)

These new PCs are really advanced tech, all to watch cat vids on youtube lol
Kernel: 4.18.8-041808-generic x86_64
Linux Mint 19 Tara Cinnamon 3.8.9
Mobo: MSI B350M GAMING PRO
CPU: Quad core AMD Ryzen 5 2400G with Vega Graphics
Graphics: [AMD/ATI] Vega - 1920x1080@60hz
OpenGL: AMD RAVEN Mesa 18.3.0-devel

Neil Darlow
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Re: Proposed new build 2400G + NVME drive

Post by Neil Darlow » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:42 am

I recently built this machine (specs are in my signature) only I chose to have a HDD in there as well.

I did try putting /boot as a separate partition on the NVMe but GRUB wasn't happy with that, so only /usr is presently on NVMe with everything else on HDD. You should be able to install completely to NVMe and the only reason I didn't was consideration of its lifetime.

/usr is mostly read-only in use and provides speedup for applications by holding binaries, libraries and resources required for execution. I also chose to use BTRFS to make Timeshift snapshots faster.

I admit to going the Intel CPU and NVIDIA graphics route to circumvent any problems associated with AMD Ryzen CPU and graphics support but if I'd been feeling brave I might have followed what you are planning. The only downside I encountered was having to buy a glitzy motherboard (ASUS Prime Z370-P) for a CPU which cannot be overclocked - not that it's a problem in the intended desktop role.

Regards, Neil
Last edited by Neil Darlow on Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
LM19 Cinnamon, Intel Core i5 8400 2.8(4.0)GHz, Corsair Vengeance 3400 16GB, Asus Cerberus GTX1050 Ti OC, Samsung 970 Evo 500GB M.2, Western Digital Blue 4TB, Wircard RealTek 8821ae PCIe Dual Band Wireless+Bluetooth 4.0, Pioneer BDR-209EBK BDRW

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Re: Proposed new build 2400G + NVME drive

Post by rev667 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:37 am

Well, today I'm off to spend some cash...

However, after a lot more reading concerning NVME drives, they are very fast but as there is an extra initialization layer between the 'normal' storage interfaces, and the PCIE bus the advantages of using an superfast M.2 drive is negated for booting, the speed when opening files and programs is also marginal compared to an ordinary SSD.

Therefore I bottled it and have decided to use a normal SSD instead. Hopefully this will allow me to partition as usual and use grub, I'll see how it goes later.

I might even document the build.

On another note, the 4.18 kernel is out and https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... -may&num=1 seems to say all I need is a newer kernel than the stock mint one. So I had a look at 'ukuu' (Ubuntu Kernel Update Utility) and that seems a simple way to update the kernel so any Ryzen APU issues should be sorted I hope.

Rev
Kernel: 4.18.8-041808-generic x86_64
Linux Mint 19 Tara Cinnamon 3.8.9
Mobo: MSI B350M GAMING PRO
CPU: Quad core AMD Ryzen 5 2400G with Vega Graphics
Graphics: [AMD/ATI] Vega - 1920x1080@60hz
OpenGL: AMD RAVEN Mesa 18.3.0-devel

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Re: Proposed new build 2400G + NVME drive

Post by catweazel » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:32 am

rev667 wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:37 am
Well, today I'm off to spend some cash...

However, after a lot more reading concerning NVME drives, they are very fast but as there is an extra initialization layer between the 'normal' storage interfaces, and the PCIE bus the advantages of using an superfast M.2 drive is negated for booting, the speed when opening files and programs is also marginal compared to an ordinary SSD.
That too is false. I have a Samsung 970 EVO NVMe and it pumps 3.4GB/s, < 5 seconds kernel time + a few seconds more to get to the desktop. You won't get that out of a stock SSD, six times, close to 7 times, less actually, 500MB/s maximum.
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Re: Proposed new build 2400G + NVME drive

Post by rev667 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:31 pm

well, a little google and found this neat little vid...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdF_aerWcW8

I still bottled it, building now, and there are a few hardware issues, tiny mobo and huge cooler.
Also downloaded wrong windoze iso doh!
Kernel: 4.18.8-041808-generic x86_64
Linux Mint 19 Tara Cinnamon 3.8.9
Mobo: MSI B350M GAMING PRO
CPU: Quad core AMD Ryzen 5 2400G with Vega Graphics
Graphics: [AMD/ATI] Vega - 1920x1080@60hz
OpenGL: AMD RAVEN Mesa 18.3.0-devel

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Re: Proposed new build 2400G + NVME drive

Post by catweazel » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:30 pm

rev667 wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:31 pm
well, a little google and found this neat little vid...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdF_aerWcW8
Technology has advanced in the 2 years since that video was made; it is only 2 years old but it is now out of date and decidedly wrong. The NVMe he's using is 550MB/s maximum, which is exactly the same speed as a SATA III SSD except in a different package, so it's little wonder there's no speed difference. These 2D NAND drives are still available, but the newer drives are 3.4GB/s 3D NAND and would drop the boot speed in that video to around 10 seconds or less.

So, yes, boot speed is no different if you compare a 550MB/s NVMe to a 550MB/s SATA III SSD, but it is simply wrong to argue that "the PCIE bus the advantages of using an superfast M.2 drive is negated for booting, the speed when opening files and programs is also marginal compared to an ordinary SSD" when the newer 3D NAND NVMe drives pump close to 7 times faster again due to, amongst other things, more PCIe lanes being used and incredibly fast flash cells.

The point I'm making is that these are technical forums, and people read them to get their information. One must be careful to not propagate FUD.
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Re: Proposed new build 2400G + NVME drive

Post by rev667 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:51 am

Thanks Cat,

I can see I still have to learn, always interesting :)

I see what you mean. We have 2 workstations at work, built a few months apart, very high spec used for solidworks cad and rendering with huge memory and eyewatering graphics cards (nvidea quadros). The only difference was the storage, the first had a samsung ssd, the second IT fitted an NVME samsung 970 PRO

I was curious to see the difference when opening a large 3D model, a constant complaint. The NVME was about 50% faster imho but the model assembly called in parts from the server which slowed it a lot. Rendering was still an overnight job on large assemblies (the boss likes advertising bling)

As for boot times, I saw very little difference, a few seconds, perhaps the network environment played a part? or the graphics subsystem? Still fast though!

Anyway, I still have the option to add an NVME card at some point, I must admit the convenience of no cables and neatness appeal regardless of speed.

I'm still messing with the new kit. Problems so far...

The vendor assured me the bios had been flashed to latest.. wrong! I had to flash it myself.
The bios is all pointy clicky and very advanced, took me ages to figure out how to set the memory to fastest timing (3200), there seemed to be no "save and exit" eventually figured it out had to use the overclocking menu and enable that first. The manual reads like an 80's vcr one, bad translation lol
The AMD cpu cooler fan covers the first memory slot, bad design MSI. I had to remove the fan (not heatsink) and rotate 90 degrees to stop fouling the memory stick, still looks like it's touching might have to notch the fan cowl slightly.
The case looks nice but was a pita for cable routing, and the power and hdd leds are bloody bright, will have to calm those down!
Windoze 10, well it installed once I got the correct iso and created a usb stick using woeusb, although mint kept mounting the stick, I had to manually umount it (using mate not cinnamon here)
Spent the next few hours installing the drivers for the chipset, cpu, sound etc. Then the essentials for me (ninite is a nice solution for essentials).
Playing with win10 it actually feels ok, quite surprised (use 10 at work but all locked down)
One thing that seems odd is the way win10 partitioned the drive, not just a single one but a few, 500MB recovery, 100MB EFI system, and the normal C: drive.
Things have changed since XP (the last win I had)

Good grief, haven't had win10 installed a day yet and updates required and a reboot.

Next I have to create a bootable Mint usb (when I find a blank stick) and resize the C: drive within windoze, looks easy. lol

"This week, I 'ave been mostly... geeky" (said in the Paul Whitehouse Jesse voice from the Fast Show)

Rev
Kernel: 4.18.8-041808-generic x86_64
Linux Mint 19 Tara Cinnamon 3.8.9
Mobo: MSI B350M GAMING PRO
CPU: Quad core AMD Ryzen 5 2400G with Vega Graphics
Graphics: [AMD/ATI] Vega - 1920x1080@60hz
OpenGL: AMD RAVEN Mesa 18.3.0-devel

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Re: Proposed new build 2400G + SSD drive

Post by rev667 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:21 pm

Update!

Well the thing lives!
It was not straightforward.

I made space for mint on the SDD, created a bootable UEFI mint usb stick.
Insert and reboot pressing F11 to get to boot menu, selected the usb and had to boot mint in compatibility mode, followed prompts to install.
Did the partition creation thing.
Put the boot on the windows boot manager partition.
Let it finish, reboot...
and straight into windoze, no grub visible. Google...
In Windoze added
bcdedit /set {bootmgr} path \EFI\ubuntu\grubx64.efi
in an admin cmd prompt.
Tried again, got grub! mint failed, flashed an error then blank screen.
Tried again, selected recovery mode and eventually got a desktop. (software rendered)
Added a repo to add ukuu and grabbed latest stable 4.18.8 kernel.
Tried again, similar results, had to use compatibility mode. More google.
Added another repo to update MESA, this seemed to work.
Reboot and failed.
Reboot, selected advanced options, selected first option, YES not software rendered, ran glxgears and it ran 60fps, no idea if that's useful lol
So It lives, 4.18.8 kernel and MESA 18.3 (sort of, occasionally freezes during boot and shutdown)
Shutdown and Restart are flaky, usually locks up. Still won't boot 'normally' I see a few lines of text and the screen blanks and hangs.
But it's promising, and fast!
From power to grub approx 5 seconds, grub to mint desktop approx 7 seconds! grub to windoze desktop approx 8 seconds!
From windoze desktop to power off 3 seconds ish (damn fast)
From mint desktop to power off (hangs at mint logo)
This is the state of play so far.
Other thoughts, I know why I want mint to work... added a single game and a CAD package to windoze, got 80Gb free space on C: confused!
So dug out a 1Tb HDD for extra space.

Will look with fresh eyes tomorrow, jeez I'm tired.

Code: Select all

System:    Host: rev-MS-7A39 Kernel: 4.18.8-041808-generic x86_64 bits: 64 Desktop: Cinnamon 3.8.9
           Distro: Linux Mint 19 Tara
Machine:   Device: desktop Mobo: MSI model: B350M GAMING PRO (MS-7A39) v: 1.0 serial: N/A
           UEFI: American Megatrends v: 2.H0 date: 07/10/2018
CPU:       Quad core AMD Ryzen 5 2400G with Radeon Vega Graphics (-MT-MCP-) cache: 2048 KB
           clock speeds: max: 3600 MHz 1: 1505 MHz 2: 1572 MHz 3: 1422 MHz 4: 1430 MHz 5: 1422 MHz
           6: 1422 MHz 7: 1422 MHz 8: 1423 MHz
Graphics:  Card: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD/ATI] Vega [Radeon Vega 8 Mobile]
           Display Server: x11 (X.Org 1.19.6 ) drivers: ati,amdgpu (unloaded: modesetting,fbdev,radeon,vesa)
           Resolution: 1920x1080@60.00hz
           OpenGL: renderer: AMD RAVEN (DRM 3.26.0, 4.18.8-041808-generic, LLVM 7.0.0)
           version: 4.5 Mesa 18.3.0-devel
Audio:     Card-1 Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] Device 15e3 driver: snd_hda_intel
           Card-2 Advanced Micro Devices [AMD/ATI] Device 15de driver: snd_hda_intel
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture v: k4.18.8-041808-generic
Network:   Card: Realtek RTL8111/8168/8411 PCIE Gigabit Ethernet Controller driver: r8169
           IF: enp27s0 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full mac: 30:9c:23:a7:7a:16
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 1240.3GB (0.9% used)
           ID-1: /dev/sda model: CT240BX500SSD1 size: 240.1GB
           ID-2: /dev/sdb model: TOSHIBA_HDWD110 size: 1000.2GB
Partition: ID-1: / size: 95G used: 6.5G (8%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda6
           ID-2: swap-1 size: 4.00GB used: 0.00GB (0%) fs: swap dev: /dev/sda5
RAID:      No RAID devices: /proc/mdstat, md_mod kernel module present
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: No active sensors found. Have you configured your sensors yet? mobo: N/A gpu: 33.0
Info:      Processes: 256 Uptime: 1 min Memory: 672.4/15041.6MB Client: Shell (bash) inxi: 2.3.56 


Kernel: 4.18.8-041808-generic x86_64
Linux Mint 19 Tara Cinnamon 3.8.9
Mobo: MSI B350M GAMING PRO
CPU: Quad core AMD Ryzen 5 2400G with Vega Graphics
Graphics: [AMD/ATI] Vega - 1920x1080@60hz
OpenGL: AMD RAVEN Mesa 18.3.0-devel

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