[SOLVED] Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Questions about Grub, UEFI,the liveCD and the installer
Forum rules
Before you post read how to get help. Topics in this forum are automatically closed 6 months after creation.
sanmig
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:27 am

[SOLVED] Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by sanmig »

Hi everyone - caution, n00b here!

I had PCLinux OS already installed on my machine, so far so good, but wanted to try Mint19 Cinnamon amd64 alongside. After some issues with the installer my Mint is OK now but I managed to damage my PCLOS, it runs into panic when booting from the new (Mint?) GRUB screen (PCLOS had a nice GRUB screen).

But on the way to the "disaster" (I have a BU but guess it wouldn't help, no prob anyway) I made some observations that I want to share and understand what I got wrong.
... I have a lot of questions, please be patient!

I'd like to proceed step by step, not to mix things up, therefore I'll make separate postings.

Part 1:
My system was: i5, 8GB, NVIDIA (GTX 750), BIOS boot,
sda: SATA SSD 500GB (dos, PCLOS on sda1 ext2, sda2 extended, sda5 swap, sda6 ext4 data, 200GB free space),
sdb: SATA HDD 1TB (sdb1 500GB ext4, sdb2 160GB ext2 copy of PCLOS, 300GB free space).

The installer detected PCLOS, I tried "alongside" but the installer (thanks to "Write changes to disk?" I saw it) insisted to use the free space on sdb.
However, I wanted to use the SSD (sda), and I could not find how to change the install-drive.

Q1: Is there no option to use sda or did I miss it?

The official installation guide is good, but it's not correct / up to date and exactly at "something else" a bit short (for a newbie).
Additionally, in my opinion, the partition manager in Mint installer (Ubuntu?) is too common. It's confusing regarding mount point of the system to install. The doc should be more helpful in this respect if the SW can't be improved.

Q2: After install (with third party SW installed) the interface is slightly different from the USB-live system (e.g. GParted is missing, shut down button from the menu isn't red any more).
Shouldn't the install be the same as live?
(I confess I've changed appearance, but GParted?

- Could someone help, please?
Whom to inform of issues if there are any?

Rem:
Only to have my first impressions complete in one spot:
After first Mint boot I run the Update Manager and got a strange question regarding the GRUB file, the correct answer would be to replace / use the new one, but "keep the existing" doesn't pose a problem.
This seems to be (not an error) intention but will be changed in the next version,
see here.
Last edited by LockBot on Wed Dec 28, 2022 7:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Topic automatically closed 6 months after creation. New replies are no longer allowed.
keithrbau
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:39 am
Location: Belmont Vic Oz

Re: Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by keithrbau »

I don't know why this works, but edit the /etc/fstab file in your PCLos system by deleting the UUID entries at the start of each partition entry, and replacing it with the /dev/sda#

The info is generally in the commented-out line above the UUID

I know this is strongly discouraged, but it works


It's been a while (and I can only test in VirtualBox at present, and the options are different when installing on a blank disk) but as I recall it there is an option on the disk-partioning screen to use free space. And you can nominate the amount of space to use. Suggest you try that seeing as you have the space ready to use, and the SSD will be far quicker than the platter.

You'll still need to edit /etc/fstab, though, in my experience.
Keith Bainbridge from Oz

Mint user for several years. Incourageable player (breaker?)
sanmig
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by sanmig »

Thanks for the suggestion, unfortunately it didn't help. Very likely PCLOS booting hangs before executing fstab. After trying your /dev/sda1 I wrote nonsense and wrong info into fstab but the boot always ends exactly at the same point (there are some lines after </IRQ>).

Doing the same in Mint19 fstab it does not complain (splash screen for some seconds) but instead boots into command line login.

However, my first concern would be "what did I miss at install" (this topic).

Second would be "what went wrong, how could the install experience be improved for the next n00b" (... re your suggestion, when using the option to use free space on my SSD see viewtopic.php?f=46&t=283065 ).

And only my third concern would be the attempt to repair my PCLOS (I'm not in a hurry with that).
But it seems the focus here is on emergency repair of Mint.

Anyway, thanks again for your reply!
gm10

Re: Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by gm10 »

sanmig wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:19 pm Q1: Is there no option to use sda or did I miss it?
There is a dropdown at the top where you can choose the drive.
sanmig wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:19 pm Q2: After install (with third party SW installed) the interface is slightly different from the USB-live system (e.g. GParted is missing, shut down button from the menu isn't red any more).
Shouldn't the install be the same as live?
The installed system received a bunch of updates, including theme updates. GParted is not getting installed permanently - you cannot modify mounted partitions, i.e. the partition you installed into and now booted from, anyway. You can, of course, nevertheless install GParted should you want to.
sanmig
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by sanmig »

gm10 wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:23 pm There is a dropdown at the top where you can choose the drive.
Yes, I've used it, but my question was regarding "alongside" install.

It always tries to use sdb on my desktop PC, how to select sda in the alongside auto-install, or is it sdb only?

Thanks, the updates may explain the different icons, didn't think about that.
I thought the installed version would be identical, GParted is useful for information, too, I did install it, no prob.
gm10

Re: Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by gm10 »

sanmig wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:45 pm
gm10 wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:23 pm There is a dropdown at the top where you can choose the drive.
Yes, I've used it, but my question was regarding "alongside" install.

It always tries to use sdb on my desktop PC, how to select sda in the alongside auto-install, or is it sdb only?
My answer was also about the alongside, there's a dropdown at the top when you choose that. Mind you, I've never actually gone through with that install option, I like to stay in control, but I've gone up to that point. If all else fails you can also just disconnect the HDD until you're done with the install.
sanmig
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by sanmig »

gm10 wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:17 pm My answer was also about the alongside, there's a dropdown at the top when you choose that. Mind you, I've never actually gone through with that install option, I like to stay in control, but I've gone up to that point. If all else fails you can also just disconnect the HDD until you're done with the install.
I must be blind. First screen is language, second keyboard, third the third party question (yes). Then there is the radio button for "alongside". That's pretty straight forward, no scary questions, but in this "Installation type" window I can't see a dropdown or drive selector.

After clicking "Install Now" there is a window that informs the n00b what will be done, here it is indicating using sdb:
Image

OK, you want full control [1], but I'm asking for auto mode with two drives - why does it insist on sdb? How come?

Also to disconnect the HDD is OK, but could I ask my mother to try that on her PC?
- Is there anybody who cares about the (auto) installer?

[1] Me too, but then there is my other thread damaging the other partition ...
gm10

Re: Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by gm10 »

sanmig wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:22 pm I must be blind. First screen is language, second keyboard, third the third party question (yes). Then there is the radio button for "alongside". That's pretty straight forward, no scary questions, but in this "Installation type" window I can't see a dropdown or drive selector.

After clicking "Install Now" there is a window that informs the n00b what will be done, here it is indicating using sdb:
Image
Dunno, for me it looked similar to this (not my screenshot), just with a brighter green, note the dropdown on top:

Image
sanmig
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by sanmig »

Thanks, but Mint is different now.
Do you know where I could ask for the (auto) installer, who is maintaining that stuff (also the official docs)?
gm10

Re: Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by gm10 »

It's Ubuntu's tool, we're only minimally patching it where needed (e.g. we support encrypted home folder creation while Ubuntu does not anymore).

The "manual":
http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/bio ... ity.8.html

The probably have some nice wiki article, too.
gm10

Re: Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by gm10 »

Tried it in a VM, here's how it's supposed to look in LM19.x:
alongside-1.png
alongside-2.png
keithrbau
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:39 am
Location: Belmont Vic Oz

Re: Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by keithrbau »

Trouble is in a VM you are installing on a blank disk. 'Something else' shows only 1 partition which can be edited. You need to install on a disk with existing Operating system to get the Install alongside option. Fire up your install DVD/USB and start the installation as far as the partitioning screens and have a look. you are not committed until you press the write changes to disk button. As you already have some free space, you could safely use part of that to install onto, and not interfere with your present system - other than the new install will become the first option on the system selector (grubb). Using the SSD as the system drive will give you greater speed overall.
Keith Bainbridge from Oz

Mint user for several years. Incourageable player (breaker?)
gm10

Re: Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by gm10 »

keithrbau wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:41 pm Trouble is in a VM you are installing on a blank disk. 'Something else' shows only 1 partition which can be edited. You need to install on a disk with existing Operating system to get the Install alongside option.
Are you talking to me now? Look at the screenshots, that's a VM with 3 disks holding 3 operating systems and I'm about to install to the third disk, currently in the process of determining who to divide the space between the existing OS and the Linux Mint I'm about to install.

There's a bug in that it should be able to correctly label the existing system as Ubuntu here, but apparently that failed, so it's just the generic "Files".

And there's probably a bug in what OP is seeing, it even tells him that if he goes back he'll be able to make changes manually, but he's not getting that.
sanmig
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:27 am

Re: [SOLVED] Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by sanmig »

keithrbau wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:41 pm As you already have some free space, you could safely use part of that to install onto, and not interfere with your present system ...
Um, I'd be careful with the "safely", I did, but it was not safe. It seems if the other OS is a brother-alien (instead of WinWin) things may go wrong:
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=283065
gm10 wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:04 pm Tried it in a VM, here's how it's supposed to look in LM19.x:
Ahh, obviously my "strange" OS makes it jump over this selection step.
I can go back to the "Installation type" screen and then opt for "Something else".
- Also note that on my screens the "Quit" buttons are missing.

Probably there is something weird detected during "alongside". So they may want to avoid my sda because of "strange OS there, don't use"?
Well, I try to give it a reason, but without a friendly message it's a bug anyway.

I'm not going to touch Ubuntu. Their doc for the GUI install is proud to be outdated (2014).
I'll file that under 'Linux'.

The Install Linux Mint doc is outdated, too, but not hopeless. The GitLab page isn't maintained, though.
I may come back to that when I understand a bit more.

EDIT:
Not: Conclusion: If there is no option screen to select drive and size during auto install:
Not: Be careful, lurking bug, the installer may not work correctly!
But: Neither a bug nor a mistake, just an irritating shortcut.

Thanks for your endurance, I'll call it solved for my part.
Last edited by sanmig on Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
gm10

Re: [SOLVED] Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by gm10 »

Super weird, I would have sworn I had posted a follow up in this thread, but apparently I did not (or maybe it accidentally ended up in some other thread, haha). Anyway, this behaviour is apparently intentional. I checked the installer's source code for this and the logic is as follows:
  1. If you've got continuous unallocated space on your drive large enough for the installation then "alongside" will install into that. Among multiple drives with sufficient unallocated space the drive with the most space will be chosen, no questions asked.
  2. Failing the above, if you've got continuous free space in any of the partitions large enough for the installation then "alongside will install into that, showing the screen as per my second screenshot. Again, among multiple eligible partitions the largest amount of free space wins, no questions asked.
I guess it kinda makes sense given how this is the automatic mode.

I also found their internal design specs for the installer by the way: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bZ4 ... db66d9d3b3

I guess we could modify the behaviour for Mint but I think we would just point to "Something else" in that case. Feel free to raise an issue over at Mint's github though (don't bother for Ubuntu, I saw rejected bug reports about this when looking for the spec above, they say it's working as intended).
sanmig
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:27 am

Re: [SOLVED] Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by sanmig »

gm10 wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:30 am I checked the installer's source code for this and the logic is as follows:
OK, good, so it's not linked to the lurking bug waiting to destroy the other OS.
From your link I guess it was a suboptimal intention to help the n00b.

(thanks, very interesting to look behind the scene and the power of "superfluous", unbelievable to come from that to the friendly Mint experience)

No, not "Something else", that would be the coward's way out 8)
There should be something in between:

So the installer realizes there are several valid options to install into unallocated space. Why not ask the user, suggesting the max space as default:

"
The installer found more than one drive with sufficient free / unallocated space to install Mint.

Please select where you want to install Mint,
the default is set to the max free space:

* Drive sda (xxx free) (some drive specs?)
** Drive sdb (xxx free) (some drive specs?)
* ...
* For more install options please try "something else" instead (rem: jump to it with continue)
[Quit] [Back] [Continue]
"


- I did not clearly understand the logic behind your step 1 and 2, respectively why you got to the second screen instead of the second "no questions asked" solution, as the largest partition space should win and fire in any case then? Yea sorry, I'm ...

- What about the missing "Quit" buttons in my case? Why are they gone?

- I'll check if I feel comfortable at Mint's github, is it
https://github.com/linuxmint/mintinstall/issues ?
I do not understand all their issues (n00b?), but there is little discussion over there?
gm10

Re: [SOLVED] Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by gm10 »

sanmig wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:09 pm So the installer realizes there are several valid options to install into unallocated space. Why not ask the user, suggesting the max space as default:
Likely because then you've got exactly what "Something else" does. They wanted the automatic mode to be as automatic as possible I guess, knowing that for choice the user can always choose the manual mode.
sanmig wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:09 pm - I did not clearly understand the logic behind your step 1 and 2, respectively why you got to the second screen instead of the second "no questions asked" solution, as the largest partition space should win and fire in any case then? Yea sorry, I'm ...
Because I did not have unallocated, i.e. unpartitioned space on my drive. In that case you always get my screen to decide how to distribute the available space (since an existing partition will be shrunk). The no questions asked is about the drive to install to, despite the dropdown you don't actually get a choice, there's only a single drive in there.
sanmig wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:09 pm - What about the missing "Quit" buttons in my case? Why are they gone?
I have no idea, I did not look into that.
sanmig wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:09 pm - I'll check if I feel comfortable at Mint's github, is it
https://github.com/linuxmint/mintinstall/issues ?
I do not understand all their issues (n00b?), but there is little discussion over there?
mintinstall is Software Manager, that's the wrong spot. The installer is here https://github.com/linuxmint/ubiquity but you cannot raise issues for that repo, so that leaves the catch-all https://github.com/linuxmint/linuxmint/issues. But don't get your hopes up, I don't expect Clem to go along with your suggestion.
sanmig
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:27 am

Re: [SOLVED] Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by sanmig »

gm10 wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:30 pm Likely because then you've got exactly what "Something else" does.
But this is a decision between drives with unallocated space, it isn't necessary to go down the partition way (Something else).
The SSD for OS because of speed and the (old) HDD for storage is the straight way and very common now if one wants to speed up his computer plus save backups to the other disk.
(Yes, for safety in case of a break in or HW failure it's wise to use an additional external drive for backups ...)
gm10 wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:30 pm ... despite the dropdown you don't actually get a choice, there's only a single drive in there.
Well, that's extra bad.

Re linuxmint/issues:
OMG, that's a very broad collector!

Again, thank you for your patience!
gm10

Re: [SOLVED] Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by gm10 »

sanmig wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:20 pm But this is a decision between drives with unallocated space, it isn't necessary to go down the partition way (Something else).
Well, whether you click on the unallocated space you want to create your Mint partition in in the Something else... window or in the other one isn't a huge difference.

Mind you, I'm sympathetic to your suggestion. As I was going through the source I actually started patching it up to always show the second screen as per my screenshot no matter whether it's partitioned or not, fixing the issue with the existing operating system not being identified in my screenshot, and then to populate the dropdown with all eligible devices. But that's how far I got before I stopped, realizing how complex of a patch it was going to end up being. Ubuntu has basically hardcoded the choice at every turn, it's a huge mess really. So from the perspective of having to maintain that patch across Ubuntu's future releases it's undesirable for Mint, and with 19.1 released it's too late for that one, anyway.
sanmig
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:27 am

Re: [SOLVED] Installing "alongside" insists to use HDD / sdb?

Post by sanmig »

gm10 wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:37 pm ... and then to populate the dropdown with all eligible devices. But that's how far I got before I stopped, realizing how complex of a patch it was ...
Of course, that change would be technically perfect, but also very likely confuse a n00b by going too far to the "Something else" end.

The problem I see with "Something else" is that details are shown which a first user doesn't (have to) know (primary, limit or not, secondary partition, sdx funny numbers and all the things a WinWin doesn't know of and which fill dozens of threads in the Net).

The "Hey, I see you have two drives with free space, which one ..." (and name them by drive specs instead of confusing hd0 or sdb only ...) would be the simple way to avoid this trouble.

However:
To automatically decide would be great, but then not by amount of free space (it only requires 20GB, why prefer 460GB over 300GB free?), but instead by the speed of the drive (= SSD first).

If auto, this is what modern technology nowadays would mandate.

... All of that is great, only the very first would be an up to date and slightly improved install guide (Wiki?).
This is where also Mint is behind.

Re Ubuntu, that's the fate of steadily growing / improving over years without financial power and extremely courageous leadership.
Both, Win and the big A have arrived there, too. (shareholders are vampires)
Locked

Return to “Installation & Boot”