Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

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Spearmint2
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Re: Deliver Me From "UPSTART" HELL!

Post by Spearmint2 »

Here's the ones listed at Distrowatch which DO NOT have Systemd in them.

https://distrowatch.com/search.php?defa ... ot+systemd


Some listed here.
https://nosystemd.org/

Probably those who like KDE, Mate, or XFCE and a full size system instead of a low weight, PC Linux OS is
a good choice.
. I'm going to check it out myself on a flashdrive.

MX Linux is a hybrid, keeps systemd parts, but doesn't let it be the init control. They explain. It sounds more like what I'd hope Mint would do too.

https://mxlinux.org/about-us/
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Spearmint2 »

Some Statistics for comparison. I did a search for both 17.3 and 18.3 for the comparison.


Mint 18.3

Has 51 folders with 400 items which have systemd in their names.
However, those 51 folders have a total of 1,444 items in them.
Total size more than 10 MB.
Controlled totally by systemd
Uses systemd executable for entire system & boot control
==========================================
Catalog of systemd in mint 18.3

Code: Select all

cat /var/lib/dpkg/info/systemd.md5sums
426 entries

Code: Select all

cat /var/lib/dpkg/info/systemd.list
702 entries
=======================================

Mint 17.3

109 items with "systemd" in their names.
14 folders with 131 items in them.
NO main systemd executable, boots uses Upstart init
Total size is 1 MB
Not controlled by systemd
=============================================
[/i]
I did manage to get mint 18.3 to boot with Upstart, but it wasn't pretty. I probably removed some things of systemd that
needed to remain. But, I did it.
.
Upstart-Boot_Systemd-NOT.png
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Re: Deliver Me From "UPSTART" HELL!

Post by Spearmint2 »

tweeks wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:51 pm
Any updated on the state of a decent systemd-free fork? 17/3/rosa expires soon, right? I don't mind a compatibility layer (e.g. using systemctl, journa,ctl, blah blah blah).. I just don't trust the full beast.. SystemD even reads your LUKS boot block-device passphrase!?! Wedgeware would be fine with me.

Last I checked, Devuan was not very nice.. any other decent options?

Tweeks
A bit long, but I wanted to itemize what I did as I was doing it.
In case anyone else wanted to give it a try also.


boot into systemd Mint 18.2
moved upstart files I found in other folders into /sbin, especially the executable
made sure grub had init=/sbin/upstart line after quiet splash
booted
came only to a tty screen, no GUI from any function key (CTRL-ALT-F*)
sudo apt install ldm
sudo apt install mdm
next came a basic splash with choice of which display manager to use. I chose mdm.
Was then able to reach desktop GUI, every program I tried worked.
I did suspend & able to wake again, but keyboard not allowed to enter password,kybd not working
That may be due to my mechanical keyboard since in 17.3 I used a usb.hid quirk.
Added the usb.hid quirk for keyboard, now suspend works for me



====================================

attempted reboot, but wouldn't reboot again till
I removed (quiet splash $vt_handoff) from infront of (init=/sbin/upstart)
I think $vt_handoff was the problem, but I wanted to see processes during boot anyway
I was delivered to the tty with "login" requested, not a GUI login screen.
Received some message about being user 1001 instead of 1000,
I guess systemd takes the first user, need to fix that
I logged in and then ran mdm from tty, and it brought me into the GUI login screen
I logged in again on that login screen with no problem
I entered Users & Groups, changed my user's number from 1001 to 1000.

=================================================
Searched on display-manager
found default-display-manager in /etc/X11 that seems it should start mdm at some point during boot process
Need to figure out how to hook into that
It was the only one NOT in a systemd folder, made easy to find thankfully
It's supposed to come active after plymouth login screen finished, I think
found the executable at /usr/sbin/mdm
put copies in /bin and /sbin , tested to be sure all 3 places could be used, if needed
I've not yet managed to get mdm into the boot process so it will go direct to GUI login
I still start it manually after boot, but I hope to get it done later.


========================================
I then downloaded firefox 68-esr stand alone version first to install after
I removed all other firefox folders and files in mint 18.3 home and system root's folders
It cleared out ~220 MB of scattered files, folders
created my home user folder of Firefox, next to Documents, Downloads, etc.
used archive manager to extract files into my new home user's firefox folder
other files extracted to .mozilla folder, which I'd also dumped previously
created a launcher in menu, put in favorites and on panel, found replacement icons in firefox folder
===========================================

So, now have a test install of Mint 18.3 that boots with Upstart, without systemd
running, even systemctl and journalctl seems to need the executable systemd run to work,
I was a bit surprised they weren't stand alone programs. Too many things tied together
and inter-dependent on systemd it seems. Until I get that tty login replaced by the
GUI login, then yes, boot is slower for now. Once in the Upstart system, things
seem to run as fast as systemd is reputed to do, perhaps a bit faster. Of course
it depends on all the systemd files to run properly now, of which there are
over 1,400 of them! systemd's selling point was faster boot, but I'm not sure
all the extra files has speeded anything up when inside a systemd managed distro.
Was the fast boot offered as a Trojan horse???
==================================================

I know Debian went to systemd, although some of their best developers in protest started Devuan.
Ubunto being derived from Debian naturally followed suit with using systemd. It makes sense
that Mint did the same, but I sure wish they'd done like in Mint 17.3, a system
I loved, and just used some few parts of the systemd where it gave any advantages, but
kept it more modular. In future, once I work the few kinks I still face, I may move
from the 18.3 systemd I currently use, into the Upstart version 18.3 I've managed to fix.
I took the idea of doing it this way from MX Linux, which has done similar to this, according to
what I read about it. Reason being updates will all need the parts of systemd left
to properly run in future, sort of a hybrid system.
==========================================================
problems that remain. Get direct to GUI during boot process, bypassing need of tty login
and manual run of mdm. Only need to login both on tty and again on the GUI login page.
If I run into other problems not discovered yet, I'll post them.


Desktop of 18.3 Upstart Mint
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Re: Deliver Me From "UPSTART" HELL!

Post by Spearmint2 »

tweeks wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:51 pm
Any updated on the state of a decent systemd-free fork? 17/3/rosa expires soon, right? I don't mind a compatibility layer (e.g. using systemctl, journa,ctl, blah blah blah).. I just don't trust the full beast.. SystemD even reads your LUKS boot block-device passphrase!?! Wedgeware would be fine with me.

Last I checked, Devuan was not very nice.. any other decent options?

Tweeks
Sounds like MX Linux for what you'd like. It has a choice of init system, the systemd, or I think Upstart is the other. The parts of systemd remain, but not run by systemd executable.

PC Linux seems the most developed Non-systemd distro perhaps.
Doesn't use Upstart nor SysVinit either, just plain old init. Seems a bit primitive yet, but also up to date on applications.
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Shadow in Fire »

Entertaining thread. I also went through the same init distress when I realized how bloated of a mess Systemd was, and Upstart was at least still available in the 18.x series. Unfortunately, all my attempts to rip out Systemd permanently were in vain, as essential packages which rely on it were candidates for removal. Perhaps this would've been a different story as soon as you installed a fresh copy of GNU/Linux Mint 18.x, and then added the PPAs containing Systemd-free versions of GVfs, UDisks2, and other packages. At least in the latter's case, there are instructions on that.

I'll eventually just suck it up and switch to Devuan, MX GNU/Linux, or even Void GNU/Linux once support for Xenial ends (next year). In the meantime, I'll just keep hunting for PPAs and tinker with adding slightly newer versions of packages without breaking dependencies. For example, I was able to upgrade most of Thunar from 1.6.11 to 1.6.15 (from the Bionic packages), so it's indeed possible. It's when you have to spend hours upon hours to chase system-wide packages to match required versions. As long as you have an image of your OS before another Frankenstein experiment, it's better than nothing.
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Spearmint2 »

all my attempts to rip out Systemd permanently were in vain, as essential packages which rely on it were candidates for removal.

That's why I quit messing around with it. I still have the version I did manage to run from Upstart, but still had to login from a terminal screen, then a second login from the GUI, but it ran OK then. However systemd has invaded all the newer upgrades as you noted. One thing I've noticed in the forums is how badly sound systems have reacted with systemd and finding and fixing sound problems increased difficulty. I tried out MX with Upstart, but wasn't greatly attracted to it. Seemed to me various settings were scattered about too much, rather than being more centralized. I've not tested Devuan, since they were just starting back then, but may do so in future. I pretty much gave up in help forums since systemd came along, not caring to figure out all it's intricacies. Still using mint 18.3 version for now. I guess the linux former concept of maintaining simplicity is following behind the dodo bird.

For example, I was able to upgrade most of Thunar from 1.6.11 to 1.6.15 (from the Bionic packages), so it's indeed possible. It's when you have to spend hours upon hours to chase system-wide packages to match required versions.

That's what Flatpaks and Snap are for, unless they also depend on systemd now too. I've read Flatpaks are best to avoid systemd integration and that Snap does have some sort of integration or hook into systemd.
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Shadow in Fire »

To be honest, I'm not too bothered about the TTY thing. I just log in and type Startx (I use Xfce). I have noticed that one of the graphical display managers, LXDM, works on Systemd-disabled machines. Could you try installing that package and its dependencies (if necessary)? I actually like it better than LightDM for focusing on simplicity, while giving the user all the customization options.

Flatpaks have given me nothing but trouble. Chances are that there's still going to be something to complain about when dependencies don't add up. I prefer to use the default package manager at best, and compiling from source at worst. Helps to declutter things on my installs.

There are many distros that are vehemently anti-Systemd or at least pro-init freedom. Devuan (based on Debian), Artix GNU/Linux (originally Manjaro with OpenRC, which is based on Arch GNU/Linux), and Void GNU/Linux (original distro with its own package manager) are the three distros that are really worth their salt these days. There's also the Slackware-based Salix, which is very KISS-oriented (their philosophy is "one application for task", minimizing on bloatware). I tried installing Salix several months ago to test it out, but I was already treated to a kernel panic. Lovely.

Anyway, I'm sticking with GNU/Linux Mint 18.3 because it's a literally perfect setup (for me), and I've cut down on so much garbage, it runs like lightning. Systemd can at least not be my init anymore, and replacing PulseAudio with ALSA is another plus.
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by pbear »

Spearmint2 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:07 pm
I tried out MX with Upstart, but wasn't greatly attracted to it. Seemed to me various settings were scattered about too much ...
Did you look at antiX? Same team but more aggressively anti-systemd. As in, doesn't have, at all.
I'm fiddling with it, gonna put in a test box just for grins. Maybe worth your time.
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Spearmint2 »

Shadow in Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:44 am
and replacing PulseAudio with ALSA is another plus.
yeah, been feeling sorry for Mr Een helping with the sound problems under systemd.
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Spearmint2 »

pbear wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:35 pm
Spearmint2 wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:07 pm
I tried out MX with Upstart, but wasn't greatly attracted to it. Seemed to me various settings were scattered about too much ...
Did you look at antiX? Same team but more aggressively anti-systemd. As in, doesn't have, at all.
I'm fiddling with it, gonna put in a test box just for grins. Maybe worth your time.
Maybe later when I have time, because oddly with "stay in place" it seems entire family decided to stay at my place, LOL, all day long, day after day, etc. ;)
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by pbear »

Spearmint2 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:55 pm
... it seems entire family decided to stay at my place, LOL, all day long, day after day, etc. ;)
Put 'em to work digging a swimming pool?
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by deepakdeshp »

I dont knw whats wrong with SYSTEMD. I dont tinker with the design of the OS, From Mint 17 to 19.3 Cinnamon all have been working flawlessly with or without SYSTEMD
If I have helped you solve a problem, please add [SOLVED] to your first post title, it helps other users looking for help, and keeps the forum clean.
Regards,
Deepak

I am using Mint 20 Cinnamon 64 bit with AMD A8/7410 / 8GB
Mint 20 Cinnamon AMD Ryzen3500U
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Spearmint2 »

deepakdeshp wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:12 pm
I dont knw whats wrong with SYSTEMD. I dont tinker with the design of the OS, From Mint 17 to 19.3 Cinnamon all have been working flawlessly with or without SYSTEMD
Read the first post in thread, and then don't do the same.
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by deepakdeshp »

I read that and still I don't know why sytemd is hell. Anyway good luck with your effort.
If I have helped you solve a problem, please add [SOLVED] to your first post title, it helps other users looking for help, and keeps the forum clean.
Regards,
Deepak

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Mint 20 Cinnamon AMD Ryzen3500U
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Schultz »

Have you looked at Devuan?
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Spearmint2 »

I messed around with it some more yesterday, and finally got it to go direct to the mdm graphical login screen. Oddly, I think it was upgrading the kernel from the one 18.3 came stock with to "linux /boot/vmlinuz-4.15.0-96-generic". Before I had to login and password at a TTY screen, then issue mdm command, then login again on the graphical screen. Now it just boots direct to the graphical login. So, basically it's fixed to work without systemd, using Upstart as the init system. Later on I may fully update it, see if it continues to work OK, or some new updates tailored to work with systemd breaks it. So, at this point it's possible to run 18.3 just fine with systemd and all or most of it's files stripped out. Now wondering if the same can be done with versions 19.

UPDATE: It seems when I updated the kernel, it installed systemd on it again. That's why it was going to the graphical screen, bypassing the TTY I formerly saw first for login. So, I stripped systemd out of it again. Back to TTY signin, followed by the graphical signin, but now it just goes to a black screen after that with mouse pointer showing and movable, but nothing else. The only upgrade I did was the kernel, and doing that caused systemd to get back on it. I checked using top command and it showed the PID 1 was systemd then, no longer Upstart. Also ran ps-p1 and the same, it had put systemd on it again.

Tired of messing with it. Gonna kill it. Will check out Devuan later on. The last systemd free OS for mint was 17.3, a great OS.
Last edited by Spearmint2 on Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Spearmint2 »

Schultz wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:25 am
Have you looked at Devuan?
Not yet. Plan to in future.
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Shadow in Fire »

Spearmint2 wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:26 am
I messed around with it some more yesterday, and finally got it to go direct to the mdm graphical login screen. Oddly, I think it was upgrading the kernel from the one 18.3 came stock with to "linux /boot/vmlinuz-4.15.0-96-generic". Before I had to login and password at a TTY screen, then issue mdm command, then login again on the graphical screen. Now it just boots direct to the graphical login. So, basically it's fixed to work without systemd, using Upstart as the init system. Later on I may fully update it, see if it continues to work OK, or some new updates tailored to work with systemd breaks it. So, at this point it's possible to run 18.3 just fine with systemd and all or most of it's files stripped out. Now wondering if the same can be done with versions 19.

UPDATE: It seems when I updated the kernel, it installed systemd on it again. That's why it was going to the graphical screen, bypassing the TTY I formerly saw first for login. So, I stripped systemd out of it again. Back to TTY signin, followed by the graphical signin, but now it just goes to a black screen after that with mouse pointer showing and movable, but nothing else. The only upgrade I did was the kernel, and doing that caused systemd to get back on it. I checked using top command and it showed the PID 1 was systemd then, no longer Upstart. Also ran ps-p1 and the same, it had put systemd on it again.

Tired of messing with it. Gonna kill it. Will check out Devuan later on. The last systemd free OS for mint was 17.3, a great OS.
You can try Debian-styled pinning to prevent Systemd from being installed automatically when you are managing packages, but probably for the best to henceforth boot with Upstart as your init. Switching to a different distro would be your best bet.

Did you get a graphical screen with LXDM, without booting with Systemd as your init?
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Spearmint2 »

Shadow in Fire wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:37 pm
Did you get a graphical screen with LXDM, without booting with Systemd as your init?
Didn't try it. Tried mdm, ldm, gdm. I'm tired of messing with it, at least for now. I have other things I need to be doing.
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Shadow in Fire »

That one actually worked for me. Didn't need to change any configs.

Still, completely fine with logging in via TTY. It's also essential, just in case I need to quickly fix something in my session that's also impacting Xorg or another graphical server of your choosing. You can even just have it take you straight to your DE right after logging in.

~/bash.profile

Code: Select all

if [[ ! $DISPLAY && $XDG_VTNR -eq 1 ]]; then
  exec startx
fi
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