Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

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Shadow in Fire
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Shadow in Fire »

I recently did a fresh install of 18.3, also to see if I could "nuke" Systemd early on. Unfortunately, the Systemd-free PPA still had UDisks2 and GVfs rely on packages such as Libpam-systemd, which in turn trigger Systemd. I also saw the likes of Disks and NetworkManager get included with the purge query, so I knew right there and then there was no way, even on a new install. Even "forcing versions" and "holding" didn't do anything.

What I did struggle with, however, was trying to get rid of PulseAudio (I use ALSA for sound output), because its packages also affected Upstart in some way. I managed to find a workaround, and it's all good now.
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Spearmint2
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Spearmint2 »

Looks like we are stuck with it, unless something horrible happens because of it, which causes some major distros to question their move to it.
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Shadow in Fire
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Shadow in Fire »

Yeah, certain essential packages in Xenial are strictly attached to it, so the least we could do is not boot from it. Devuan and MX GNU/Linux are just not that good enough for me to make the switch, since Debian just doesn't appeal to me. I'd much rather just install Artix GNU/Linux.
pbear
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by pbear »

Finally got around to installing the current version of MX Linux in a test box. Not sure I understand your objection ("various settings were scattered about too much"). Are you talking about the desktop settings? Or really deep system files stuff?

My next experiment: cloning the first installation and trying to replace the desktop. Never have warmed to XFCE.

Little anecdote. As I sometimes boot my USB test boxes on a Windows laptop, I routinely switch the clock to RTC. Without thinking, ran the systemd command I always use (timedatectl set-local-rtc 1). MX told me to kick rocks. systemd not enabled, command not recognized. Able to change the setting in Date & Time, though.
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Spearmint2
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Spearmint2 »

pbear wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 5:54 pm
Finally got around to installing the current version of MX Linux in a test box. Not sure I understand your objection ("various settings were scattered about too much"). Are you talking about the desktop settings? Or really deep system files stuff?

My next experiment: cloning the first installation and trying to replace the desktop. Never have warmed to XFCE.

Little anecdote. As I sometimes boot my USB test boxes on a Windows laptop, I routinely switch the clock to RTC. Without thinking, ran the systemd command I always use (timedatectl set-local-rtc 1). MX told me to kick rocks. systemd not enabled, command not recognized. Able to change the setting in Date & Time, though.
I guess it's the XFCE desktop mostly I wasn't enamored of. It's been awhile since I tried it, but mostly was talking about simple settings I expected to find all in a control box area or single settings box like in Mint. I'll be interested in how well it works with a different desktop like MATE (my favorite) and Cinnamon, or whatever you try out.

May need to install Gnome to run some different desktops, not sure.
https://youtu.be/W8pTonhpwtQ

Also not sure if MATE or Cinnamon desktop would pull systemd into the MX, like it did when I had my Upstart version of Mint 18 which I'd made systemd free when I updated some program. Remember after updates to run below command to make sure it's not done that. If that happened, will show "systemd" as the PID1 or init system. I would think if all programs are through the MX package manager however that wouldn't happen. The danger would be downloading something from a PPA. Because then if the program you downloaded is systemd expected, it grabs the entire systemd package and installs it too. Maybe best to run aptitude show "any program" first, see if systemd is mentioned in the depends area.

Code: Select all

ps -p1
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Spearmint2
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Spearmint2 »

Without thinking, ran the systemd command I always use (timedatectl set-local-rtc 1). MX told me to kick rocks. systemd not enabled, command not recognized. Able to change the setting in Date & Time, though.
At least you got the warning. I didn't or missed seeing it in "depends" on my systemd free Mint 18.3 when I installed something (can't recall at moment) from Mint repository. MX probably has something added to it for providing such warning? If I can get MATE onto MX in future, I might change fully over to it then.

However, avoiding systemd even in MX may be coming to an end.

https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resou ... story=8132
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Shadow in Fire
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Shadow in Fire »

Spearmint2 wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:48 am
Without thinking, ran the systemd command I always use (timedatectl set-local-rtc 1). MX told me to kick rocks. systemd not enabled, command not recognized. Able to change the setting in Date & Time, though.
At least you got the warning. I didn't or missed seeing it in "depends" on my systemd free Mint 18.3 when I installed something (can't recall at moment) from Mint repository. MX probably has something added to it for providing such warning? If I can get MATE onto MX in future, I might change fully over to it then.

However, avoiding systemd even in MX may be coming to an end.

https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resou ... story=8132
Well, I have some good news for you. I finally installed Refracta (a Devuan spin that focuses on lightweight system bases), and the whole thing is incredibly fast. I changed my init from SysVinit to Runit, which is allowed as per Devuan's Init Freedom philosophy. It even has user-friendly tools to create live USBs of your current setup, which may be used to clone installs exactly how you see fit.

After applying a few tweaks to make it MY system (ain't that the point of getting away from Win$uckZ or crapOS?), I can safely conclude that I will be purging GNU/Linux Mint 18.3 for good (and be done with Ubuntu as a whole).

I really think you should give Devuan or one of its spins (Refracta is just one of them) a shot. If there's one thing I know, you have to put the FIRE to your own words. If you are against Systemd, PulseAudio, and the usual Red Hat vomit being spewed in the name of open-source software (they might be "free" in terms of accessibility, but they don't respect you as a user), then MEAN it.

P.S. I did try Artix GNU/Linux a few weeks ago. It was also good, but I realized I couldn't commit to its architecture as long as I could with trusty APT.
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Scott65 »

Thanks for this thread. I'm still on LM 17.2 because of SystemD. (I tried upgrading to 17.3 but wasn't thrilled with the changes) I've been considering installing LM20 on my other partition, (I've had 2 boot partitions for upgrades since LM 13. Been using Mint for 8+ years, but it looks like I'll have to switch to something else now.) Sad really.

I like the Cinnamon desktop for various reasons. (I don't want too many changes) I know debian had a "civil war" over systemd way back and devuan forked away. They just came out with their new release in June as well. But their default desktop it XFCE. Which is okay I guess... I'll have to install it in VBox and take a look...

I've looked at Manjaro, MX and a few others (that don't use SystemD or at least give a choice at install) I'd appreciate people replying with what alternate distros they try to and how easy it was to make the switch.

Not a happy camper with this at all.

Thanks everyone.
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Oldbill »

I am a big fan of MX Linux but I think you will find it also uses Systemd :(

https://mxlinux.org/blog/about-mx-19-and-systemd/
Shadow in Fire
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Shadow in Fire »

Scott65 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:25 am
Thanks for this thread. I'm still on LM 17.2 because of SystemD. (I tried upgrading to 17.3 but wasn't thrilled with the changes) I've been considering installing LM20 on my other partition, (I've had 2 boot partitions for upgrades since LM 13. Been using Mint for 8+ years, but it looks like I'll have to switch to something else now.) Sad really.

I like the Cinnamon desktop for various reasons. (I don't want too many changes) I know debian had a "civil war" over systemd way back and devuan forked away. They just came out with their new release in June as well. But their default desktop it XFCE. Which is okay I guess... I'll have to install it in VBox and take a look...

I've looked at Manjaro, MX and a few others (that don't use SystemD or at least give a choice at install) I'd appreciate people replying with what alternate distros they try to and how easy it was to make the switch.

Not a happy camper with this at all.

Thanks everyone.
OK. Just go with Devuan (there are some different versions, depending on your tastes). Trust me, this is your best bet for a non-Systemd distro, especially if you still prefer to use trusty APT to handle your packages. You can always enable backports to get slightly up-to-date versions of certain packages that you want. I actually did a full package update using the backports and had NO problems whatsoever. I also upgraded the Linux kernel from 4.19.x to 5.6.x. Runs amazing on a semi-old i5.

Also, don't let the Xfce DE as default discourage you. You can always just install the Cinnamon dependencies and go from there. As the developers say, all they are doing is providing non-Systemd versions of Debian's official repositories, so if Debian allows you to install Cinnamon as your DE, Devuan pretty much follows suit, except Systemd dependencies are purged indefinitely.
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pnin
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by pnin »

Great read, even for a noob like me. 8)

A similar account of my fiddling with (very!) limited Linux knowledge: https://www.q4os.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3159.

I might try doing the same with LMDE sometime.
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by arvy »

Oldbill wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:47 am
I am a big fan of MX Linux but I think you will find it also uses Systemd :(
MX Linux ships with systemd present but disabled. It uses sysvinit instead by default. See here.
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by ZakGordon »

pnin wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:34 am
Great read, even for a noob like me. 8)
+1

This is what i took away from the story (and no slight meant in any of this!):

"Experienced Linux user breaks his Mint to make it work in a 'different' way, then spends six months before deciding it 'can't be done'."

This is WHY windows has dominated the OS space ;) Nearly all the people involved with making Linux are coders or developers themselves, making ALL the decisions. Where is 'that' CEO/Manager to say "But the people just want an OS that is easy to use and works, so make it like that." ;)

Not saying we need a Linux CEO (perish the thought!), but god was i HAPPY BEYOND BELIEF that Linux Mint was 'that' version of Linux a Windows user could get and be productive with without having to deconstruct it all the time!

So thank you Clem and team for seeing the 'gap' in the Linux market for that, and i really don't care if i'm using systemd or systemxyz, as long as my OS works easily, works FOR me and is not a spyware tool (hi Windows 10!).

But thanks for the journey Spearmint2 :)
Laptop overheating? Check link here:itsfoss guide . A move from Cinnamon to XFCE can give a -5 to -10 degrees C change on overheating hardware.

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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Spearmint2 »

Interesting information from exactly a year ago I somehow, being busy with other matters in life, missed seeing, till now. Seems Knoppix, a distro almost all Linux users have knowledge of or familiarity over the years with, has decided to drop systemd as the init system.

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/kn ... n-systemd/

Further fall or fracturing of systemd happening even in Debian and probably more changes to come.
The article starts off positively praising systemd, (probably to avoid knee-jerk reactions, but the devil is in the details of the possible future.
In other words, all is not happiness in systemd land at Debian, so looks like a weakened fork of systemd may be in the works soon.

https://fossforce.com/2020/02/the-verdi ... emd-is-in/

And, as I feared, security has suffered with systemd, what I consider a "wrapper" control program, or as I stated before "one ring (program) to rule them all" with deference to Tolkien and Lord of the Rings. So many main distros going after systemd, was like falling in love at first sight, blinded by the lipstick on the pig behind it, LOL. As time has passed, faults are being recognized, and the marriages with systemd are now into marital counseling to see if they can resolve their differences, get to the "root" of the problem. :oops:
Stand alone programs in an OS, any one may be hacked, but that doesn't necessarily mean all others then become vulnerable. In an program that has it's "finger in every pie" (every program), if/when it's hacked, then it becomes an OS wide problem. That's the danger of systemd since the beginning. That's not unlike the problem windows has always had.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-linux ... uncovered/

This article in 2017 seems to be the method now used by Knoppix as it drops systemd as the init and also replaces systemd-logind with elogind.
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Re: Deliver Me From "SYSTEMD" HELL!

Post by Schultz »

Spearmint2 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:47 pm
And, as I feared, security has suffered with systemd, what I consider a "wrapper" control program, or as I stated before "one ring (program) to rule them all" with deference to Tolkien and Lord of the Rings. So many main distros going after systemd, was like falling in love at first sight, blinded by the lipstick on the pig behind it, LOL. As time has passed, faults are being recognized, and the marriages with systemd are now into marital counseling to see if they can resolve their differences, get to the "root" of the problem. :oops:
Stand alone programs in an OS, any one may be hacked, but that doesn't necessarily mean all others then become vulnerable. In an program that has it's "finger in every pie" (every program), if/when it's hacked, then it becomes an OS wide problem. That's the danger of systemd since the beginning. That's not unlike the problem windows has always had.
This is THE reason why I dislike systemd. It has nothing to do with wearing tin-foil hats.
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