grub2 : to be avoided

Questions about Grub, UEFI,the liveCD and the installer
Forum rules
Before you post please read how to get help
Post Reply
User avatar
capricornus
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:11 am

grub2 : to be avoided

Post by capricornus »

If propose that Clement will invent us a choice between grub and grub2, or avoid grub2 for the time being. It takes away a rather simple method of letting us make our own booting choices as far as OS'es is concerned. If grub2 will grow up to a controllable alternative, it could be given it's proper place. In Mint 10 or so.
User avatar
Fred
Level 10
Level 10
Posts: 3337
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:59 am
Location: NC USA

Re: grub2 : to be avoided

Post by Fred »

capricornus,

Grub2 is new to everybody. That, however, should not be a reason to bad mouth it. It holds promise for several improvements over legacy grub. I think instead of condemning it because you don't know how to use it, the better thing to do is learn to use it. It isn't like you will be the only one having to do that. :-)

Fred
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and each time expecting a different result.

Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on the menu. Liberty is an armed lamb protesting the electoral outcome. A Republic negates the need for an armed protest.
dequire
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 472
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:28 pm
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Re: grub2 : to be avoided

Post by dequire »

+1 Fred

Also, no one will force anyone to upgrade.
They'll all look at me and say,
Hey look at him! I'll never live that way.
But that's okay -
They're just afraid to change.
- Shannon Hoon

The Blue Mint
User avatar
capricornus
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:11 am

Re: grub2 : to be avoided

Post by capricornus »

"a reason to bad mouth it"
"it holds promise for several improvements"
"instead of condemning it"
"the better thing to do is learn to use it"

I wrote:
I propose [...]
- a choice between grub and grub2,
- or avoid grub2 for the time being.
If grub2 will grow up to a controllable alternative
it could be given it's proper place

or I learned a wrong English in Colorado
or I'm misread

my statement is nót "bad mouthing"
it is asking about a choice, or even better, about waiting
until the whole thing is stable and controllable
and thén giving it it's proper place in Mint

I foresee: this grub2, as it is nów, will scare all those newbies that want to (experiment with) dualboot with their Vista or Win7. It might cause a setback for people like me that try to put Mint on all pc's that I get to clean and smooth up. Staying "in the Gloria" but not higher up. So it might hold a sure promise, but it absolutely needs a steering wheel.
User avatar
Fred
Level 10
Level 10
Posts: 3337
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:59 am
Location: NC USA

Re: grub2 : to be avoided

Post by Fred »

capricornus,

Well... reading your comments in this and other threads about grub2 certainly seems like bad mouthing to me. I didn't see anything positive in any of your posts.

I have been playing with grub2 for a few weeks, trying to get familiar with it myself. I haven't really seen any stability issues on the equipment I put it on. It is different as far as setting it up. You can't just modify the equivalent of the menu.lst as you can in legacy grub. But that doesn't mean that you can't change it, you just do it differently.

One very nice feature that it brings, however, is the "fromiso" option. This allows you to boot from an iso file on the hard drive from the menu. This should come in handy for installing without a CD/DVD drive, and a lot faster.

I am just saying that you shouldn't be so quick to decide it isn't a desirable thing to do just because you don't yet know how to use it. Learn to use it, then decide which is the better way to go.

Fred
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and each time expecting a different result.

Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on the menu. Liberty is an armed lamb protesting the electoral outcome. A Republic negates the need for an armed protest.
User avatar
capricornus
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:11 am

Re: grub2 : to be avoided

Post by capricornus »

We surely are in a dual communicating boot/mood.
I surely read:
"http://members.iinet.net/~herman546/p20 ... 0Mode.html"
if that is supposed a steering wheel, I prefere editing menu.lst.

I'm not bad mouthing, I'm sharing impressions and frustrations, and I do hope that a version 2 will be user friendly. That has nothing to do with intrinsic qualities, but with practicalities for the masses of newbies that will be confronted with it. Mint has always given more than the others, and the actual grub2 is very well capable of causing an uproar. That will be a lot of bad mouthing then! And that would be unfair toward all the energy and goodwill that is put into Mint.
User avatar
DataMan
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1234
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:47 am
Location: Carmel, Midwest USA at /var/www
Contact:

Re: grub2 : to be avoided

Post by DataMan »

Here's a couple of links to some pretty informative material (opinion) regarding GRUB & GRUB2 authored by a friend of mine (it's on the Kubuntu Boards):

For GRUB2 Beginners:
http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.p ... =3106368.0

General GRUB Toolkit:
http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.p ... =3081671.0

Hope this helps put some "teeth" in the subject :D .

-DataMan
Linux'd since 2005 Linux ID 422356 Ubuntu ID 15015
User avatar
gees
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: grub2 : to be avoided

Post by gees »

DataMan wrote:Here's a couple of links to some pretty informative material (opinion) regarding GRUB & GRUB2 authored by a friend of mine (it's on the Kubuntu Boards):

For GRUB2 Beginners:
http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.p ... =3106368.0

General GRUB Toolkit:
http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.p ... =3081671.0

Hope this helps put some "teeth" in the subject :D .

-DataMan
Thx for the sources & thx to your friend, who did a great job. I've just read the first thread after playing for some days with multi-linux partitions and a separate boot-partition on sdb (usb-hdd), whereas sda is an internal winxp hdd, which is "closed and maintained thru a network". Works fine btw.
GRUB2 seems complex in the beginning, but after reading "SECTION 4 Special Topics & Dedicated GRUB 2 partition: How to build it", I'm convinced that GRUB2 will give me the same or more flexibility as GRUB Legacy.

What is still confusing me, is that the installers of a linux OS e.g. Mint, Ubuntu are not very clear were and how they install their boot loaders.
But a bootloader like GRUB2 with independent theming especially when several OS'es are installed looks very promising. I'm new to linux, I do not see problems with GRUB2, except it's new.
"The web was made for sharing ..."
nukm

Re: grub2 : to be avoided

Post by nukm »

The Noob issues with GRUB2 will be no different than they currently are with GRUB. Most of them know little about GRUB and they will also know little about GRUB2. Consequently, the only change will be with the BL.

If the BL configures multiple OS installations at install - automatically - all will be fine. The Ubuntu/Mint experience is calculated to be an automatic one for noobs, imitating the no-choice Windows installation environment. That needs to be maintained or it will seem to be too much like Linux. :lol:

The doubters should review the history of Mint and realize that Clem will "take care of it", just as he has with the preferences options available in MintUpdate which help the Noob avoid broken systems due to unnecessary updates.
User avatar
capricornus
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:11 am

Re: grub2 : to be avoided

Post by capricornus »

Me again. Installed Parsix3 today. When people call me bad-mouthed and dumb like a chicken, I look for some viable alternative. But Parsix3 with GRUB2 did exactly the same as all the other so-called advanced distro's: it made the grub-an-boot-proces worse. Of course, Parsix3 made itself bootable. But it wiped away both WinXP and Mint7. And it took me a lot of time and effort to get both working again. So, there I am again (as I plead at linuxmint-nl.org): Grub 1.97rc is not ready for the masses. Don't kill me with it's possible advantages, I tell you that the newbie that I try to convince into dual boot tomorrow, will lynch me when the possibility to boot into WinXP/Vista/7 is gone, just like a snap of the finger. I insist that Clem considers the pros and cons. I just tell you about the experienced cons.
User avatar
Fred
Level 10
Level 10
Posts: 3337
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:59 am
Location: NC USA

Re: grub2 : to be avoided

Post by Fred »

capricornus wrote:
When people call me bad-mouthed and dumb like a chicken, I look for some viable alternative.
Hang on a min. I don't mind taking the credit or blame for what I said, but let's keep it real. My posts are still there, unedited, for you to refer to.

I said:
... should not be a reason to bad mouth it.
Nothing about your mouth being bad. I certainly didn't comment on IQ or ability to speak in regards to you or any barn yard fowl.

bad mouth = To criticize or disparage, often spitefully or unfairly.

In my opinion that is what you were doing, criticizing unfairly. Grub2 might be a total disaster. I don't know. But I won't disparage it until I know enough about it to compare it to legacy grub on a level playing field.

If you are leaving because of what I said you are way over reacting to my comments. In fact, you are reading something into my comments that just isn't there. You are of course entitled to do as you see fit, but don't try to turn it into something that it wasn't.

Fred
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and each time expecting a different result.

Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on the menu. Liberty is an armed lamb protesting the electoral outcome. A Republic negates the need for an armed protest.
nukm

Re: grub2 : to be avoided

Post by nukm »

No sense getting hysterical about GRUB2 until it actually is presenting problems. Also, the noobs will not be much different under GRUB2. Where is it written that noobs need to be protected and shielded from actually learning something? Mint, although very accommodating, is not Windows. It is unlikely that Canonical will release a new issue with a bootloader that prevents folk from installing and using Ubuntu with other OSs.

It is not a crime to insist that Linux users learn something, as in how configure their own installations where necessary and desirable. The practicality of Linux is that very ability to be configurable. The Windows mentality is infecting Linux. Everyone is demanding non-configurable, automated installs that also have bloated the kernel up to giant hog size.

If a noob cannot get a dual boot system up and running, what is the primary problem? The bootloader? No, it is that the noob is ignorant. It is not the fault of the OS if the user is ignorant, especially if he is also too lazy to learn to configure his own system.

If someone cannot drive the mule, it is not the mule's fault.
Husse
Level 23
Level 23
Posts: 18677
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:22 am
Location: Near Borås Sweden

Re: grub2 : to be avoided

Post by Husse »

Well I have not had the time to study grub2 in detail, but it seems to be able to do what we do now with gfxgrub and more like fromiso
Mint does not use standard grub, but gfxgrub to get the nice grub menu
However that causes problems in mixed SATA PATA environments and with removable disks so I'm actually looking forward to grub2 unless it brings too many problems of its own
We will experiment and not blindly go with Ubuntu here
And gentlemen please cool down, no need to get agitated over a bunch of zeros and ones :)
Image
Don't fix it if it ain't broken, don't break it if you can't fix it
dequire
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 472
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:28 pm
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Re: grub2 : to be avoided

Post by dequire »

Husse wrote:And gentlemen please cool down, no need to get agitated over a bunch of zeros and ones :)
- I'm adding your quote to my sigfile! 8) Priceless...
They'll all look at me and say,
Hey look at him! I'll never live that way.
But that's okay -
They're just afraid to change.
- Shannon Hoon

The Blue Mint
SxFlare
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:48 am

Re: grub2 : to be avoided

Post by SxFlare »

booting from iso sounds delicious, no more need to run to the desktop to burn CD to boot off (and less heating for my laptop, two birds!)
is there any linux equivalent to the AnyToISO app for Windows and Mac? that'd just be awesome

funnily, I ran into grub2 documentation the other day by coincidence, though it does sound complicated at first, I'd love to give it a try actually
User avatar
gees
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: grub2 : to be avoided

Post by gees »

SxFlare wrote:booting from iso sounds delicious, no more need to run to the desktop to burn CD to boot off (and less heating for my laptop, two birds!)
...
this option alone is worth it!

With GRUB Legacy every distro needs a different "hack" and costs more time and effort than burning and finally wasting a LiveCD. After spending a lot time and searching solutions to boot iso's with GRUB Legacy, I decided to to switch to GRUB2 once and for all.
"The web was made for sharing ..."
Post Reply

Return to “Installation & Boot”