Best Display server for Linux Mint.

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What dispaly sever do you think mint should use.

X first display server for Unix based systoms
0
No votes
XFree86 made in 1991
0
No votes
X.org fork of XFree86 made in 2004
2
20%
Y.org made in 2005 to replace the outdated X Windows systom never used
1
10%
Mir made in 2013
0
No votes
Wayland 2012
7
70%
W prototype that became X. could be reinviented by the Mint team to work on all disros.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 10

Jessey Lawson
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Best Display server for Linux Mint.

Post by Jessey Lawson » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:59 am

Ok So I am recrating this poll. We all know that X.org aka X11 is old, in fact it is even older then me and a lot of people. While X.org is decent we all know that it is no longer up for the task. Now we all know that X.org is a fork of Xfree86. Now I am not a teckninal person or a programer, but even I know that Mint will have issues if it keeps useing X.org as Ubuntu is planing to drop X.org suport in Mir in Ubuntu 13.10 witch is not that far away and with Mir's huge negative reputation and low level of compatability with X it just does not sound like a good solution. Then there is the after effects that Mints choice will cause on its dirivatives. Now in 2005 an new alternative was introduced called Y. I know that the server is under GPL and the client is under LGPL and so why not just fork or replace the clinet. I also am aware of the yiterm being under the CPL, but would it be that hard for the Mint team or another team of devlopers to make an open source clone of it. Now Y has the advantage of being a younge and fresh display server and unlike X it does not have all the layers of unused code for example x.org used to be able to controle printers, how ever this was removed and patched up or "blocked" as they call it. Y does not have any of this and while it might take more to get it up and running then Wayland at least it is simpiler and gives more power to the server and not the Window Mangers like Mir and Wayland do. Y also has the built in ability for transparancy. Now then there leaves W, which is what X was based on and It might be use full to make a server that is X.compatable that has none of its flaws and W could do that, how ever that would mean a huge collaberation with other groups and distros. Now I am not saying that Wayland is bad or anything, I am just saying that Clem and the Linux Mint team realy needs to sit down and thing about this issue as it will be here in 6-8 months if not sooner.

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karlchen
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Re: Best Display server for Linux Mint.

Post by karlchen » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:01 am

Hi, Jessey Lawson.

The Mint development team is a small team. Therefore they will simply not have the required manpower to create a fork of X.org, Y, Mir or Wayland or any other display server.
Ubuntu earns a lot of criticism of implementing a proprietary X.org replacement Mir instead of following the assumend mainstream replacement Wayland.
I doubt it will be a good idea if Linux Mint followed Ubuntu's bad example and created yet another non-mainstream replacement for X.org. And as stated before, the Mint developer team will simply not have the manpower to do so.
Let us see what the common basis of Ubuntu and Mint, Debian, will do and stick to the Debian route.

Kind regards,
Karl
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Re: Best Display server for Linux Mint.

Post by LinWinux » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:14 am

I agree with karlchen 100% and the person who made this poll clearly does not understand the level of work and time consuming hours that are required to make display servers work across the board for 1000s of graphic chips and 100s of display types ... universally. It's an overwhelming task that is being handled by large corporations with teams comprised of dozens of programmers who get paid very well. There's nothing wrong with xorg and I've been using computers for 22 years, specifically Linux full time for the past 5 years. With age we gain wisdom and with wisdom we gain the understanding ... of why some things are as they are.

The whole premise of Linux was to have a free OS for everyone and since Unix had the programming to open those doors, Linux was created. For anyone to think that Xorg or even Wayland will ever be outdated is absurd. It's absurd because the only way ever evolving Linux "anything" gets outdated ... is when it becomes abandoned. Abandonment (Gnome2) is not the same thing as being outdated though since abandoned things may always be picked up again (Mate). As long as developers are willing & able to work on anything Linux related, progress will continue. Today, tomorrow, and on into the future. As times change, so does the OS and the development of every aspect that makes the OS work productively. That's the Linux way. With Unity and later the proprietary "Ubuntu" display server Canonical has decided to take the middle ground between freedom and Windows/Mac like propriety. One more reason for me not to use Ubuntu. :wink:

Just look at the comparison between Unix, Linux, MacOS, and Windoze. If you can forget gamers for a moment, with but that specific category Linux is in my opinion anywhere from just somewhat, to totally superior over those other OS that I just mentioned. That's the proof right there, how things will continue to progress and improve further. Heck, for that matter just look at the difference between Red Hat version 6.0 (tried it, OMG) and Linux Mint 15. It's such a gigantic chasm from the GUI perspective that anyone who didn't know better wouldn't even be able to tell that the same Linux architecture is at the core of both. I guess some of the younger folks just get impatient and think because things aren't happening fast enough, it's time for a total revamp ... without actually understanding the implications of such a task. And for those who don't know it already, creating a working display server that's universally compatible is probably *THE* hardest part of all, as far as working desktops are concerned. That would explain why there are so few display servers to begin with.

Also, sorry to say but the poll itself is already biased. You can't have an accurate fair poll when you imply one item is better than the other. That has an effect on the choices that people make in a poll. Polls are supposed to be neutral, just collecting statistics of people's opinions ... without influencing them in any way.
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Re: Best Display server for Linux Mint.

Post by js3915 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:51 pm

Luckly or so its seems mint wont need to worry bout anything till after the next LTS of ubuntu. Seems will be either Wayland or Mir. My guess will be Mint will follow whatever Debian does. Debian going the direction of more "Free Open source" will probably lean to Wayland. But time will tell what the developers will do

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Re: Best Display server for Linux Mint.

Post by HardyH » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:49 am

js3915 wrote:Luckly or so its seems mint wont need to worry bout anything till after the next LTS of ubuntu. Seems will be either Wayland or Mir. My guess will be Mint will follow whatever Debian does. Debian going the direction of more "Free Open source" will probably lean to Wayland. But time will tell what the developers will do
Unless AMD and nVidia provide working drivers for wayland, no distro that focusses on desktop should use it as default display server. Mir is Ubuntu Unity only, more or less all *buntus already have said they will not use Mir, so Mint should not use it either.
Conclusion: Stay with xorg.
H.

teatime
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Re: Best Display server for Linux Mint.

Post by teatime » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:10 am

I do not know how big the development team of Cinnamon is but I think it is much better to stick with xorg/wayland (Debian) people as there is much interestest to get Cinnamon working on various distributions, which means there are developers out there which can help in the further development of Cinnamon as it is not bound to a single distribution. Developers which tried to package unity for other distributions either gave up or got something running with major patching. For this reason I do not have any trust in Canonical and I think Mir is not a community accepted project and from a technical point of view not needed whereas Wayland seems to be wideley excepted and as Mint is very community orientated they should go the wayland path.
Last edited by teatime on Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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LinWinux
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Re: Best Display server for Linux Mint.

Post by LinWinux » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:30 am

teatime wrote:Developers which tried to package unity for other distributions either gave up or got something running with major patching. For this reason I do not have any trust in Canonical and I think Mir is not a community accepted project and from a technical point of view not needed ...
Well, it's always been known that Canonical's interest was of a commercial nature and the only way to continue on that path in this maelstrom of 100+ linux distros is to set Canonical/Ubuntu apart from everything else. That's why Unity was developed and to further emphasize another step in the (much cheaper) direction of Mac, there will be Mir. That's good & great for Canonical, I can respect that ... even though it does totally takes away from that complete "freedom concept" that Linux is supposed to be all about. It's not the first time and it won't be the last (Red Hat, Lindows, etc.) that's for sure.

For all other distros the only logical & sensible options for display servers are Wayland and Xorg. I believe in Xorg because of how far it has come in the past 5 years alone. It seems to me that as Linux become more and more popular, so do developers take more interest in making even more improvements ... faster. Regardless what the future for Linux display servers holds, I believe the developers of both, Xorg as well as Wayland, will keep things properly on track. Certainly Xorg will be needed for a lot of the smaller "made for old computers" Linux distros that are out there. Personally, I spend 60+ hours per week on my computer (almost zero time for 3D games) and Xorg has never let me down. It's always given me what I needed and it always handled Compiz beautifully whenever I wanted to use it.
How can anyone "diss" a fantastically functional product ... just because of how old it is?

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teatime
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Re: Best Display server for Linux Mint.

Post by teatime » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:07 pm

You are correct and Xorg is needed for much more as only old computers - what about commercial Unices and as some of them are offered with support plans for many years - it's trusted technology and offers features which is not at the moment in it's successor. Xorg will not die also we should not forget who was demanding with a loud voice wayland - you have mentioned that xorg got "dissed" and I think only for political reasons as it is a project/technolgy which is out of control of a certain company. Xorg developers are aware about Xorg and it's problems and they have worked hard in the past that it get better and I'm very thankful them that they make sane development decisions and do not jump back and forth and the same goes for wayland.

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DrHu
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Re: Best Display server for Linux Mint.

Post by DrHu » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:36 pm

The best display will be whatever your Linux distrubtor decides to support
--at least that will be the easiest method for most people

If I wanted a high perfromance display, I might seek out other display servers, that claim faster operation or better support for some display types
--unfortunately they will all likely be commercial UNIX/Linux product lines

Some typical product examples: just a quick search
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2667
http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/
--this company was running for a long time, but they may have current financial difficulties..

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Re: Best Display server for Linux Mint.

Post by Jessey Lawson » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:19 pm

If you guys read the first post like you are supost to then you would know I am not a programer. Second who still uses an "real" Unix system. The Only OS's that I know would be effected would be the BSD/Darwin family, hurd, and the GNU/Linux hybrid OS's like BlueEyedos and sylable server for example. Only three people know how X.org fully works and if something happens we are srewed. X.org is decent, how ever it is flawed and I fully agrea that with Chris that it needs to go. :wink: Now the age of X.org is one of the issues version 11 has been out for WAY TO LONG and it seems like they don't know how to upgrade it, if they can. Then you have issue two mice drivers, uh this is a big error for me. When I plug in two mice I want two mice, not one! What where they thinking! It is the same with keyboards too and this makes useing Virtualbox more of a pain then it needs to be.Everyone says that *nix systems are good at multi tasking, but that is just dead wrong.If I plug in a moniter only one user can use it. Come on people. If I have two moniters I should be able to hook up two mice and keyboards and both of us could use it at the same time right there with no remote log ins needed. So far Linux has no real multitasking software or tools. If I want to do something I can not share the computer. This is why Linux needs MUMU. Is some of it X.orgs fault, yes. Is X weaker then Y, who knows. Wayland is even more horible as it gives the Window Managers way to much power. The power should be in the display server, that is why it is there in the first place. I do think that Linux needs a new open source display server that is not Mir, wayland or x.org and make it the new standard.

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Re: Best Display server for Linux Mint.

Post by Orbmiser » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:01 pm

Jessey Lawson wrote:Everyone says that *nix systems are good at multi tasking, but that is just dead wrong.If I plug in a moniter only one user can use it. Come on people.
You have a flawed definition and expectations of what Multitasking means in reference to a OS.
Jessey Lawson wrote: If I have two monitors I should be able to hook up two mice and keyboards and both of us could use it at the same time right there with no remote log ins needed.
And why is that? Can you give examples where a OS supports this kind of multi-tasking out of the box?
You seem to see multi-tasking as about user's multitasking as the definition of the term which is wrong as applied to a OS.
Instead Multitasking means multi-tasks run by the OS.

That is why there are hardware switch solutions for Multi-user on any OS that allow multiple keyboards,mice and displays.

Linux IS a Multi-thread Multitasking OS.
Multitasking has the same meaning as multiprogramming in the general sense as both refer to having multiple (programs, processes, tasks, threads) running at the same time. Multitasking is the term used in modern operating systems when multiple tasks share a common processing resource (CPU and Memory).
Multitasking refers to an operating system in which multiple processes, also called tasks, can execute (i.e., run) on a single computer seemingly simultaneously and without interfering with each other. That is, each process has the illusion that it is the only process on the computer and that it has exclusive access to all the services of the operating system.
So as you can see your definition is not everyone's else's definition of what Multitasking means.
.

teatime
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Re: Best Display server for Linux Mint.

Post by teatime » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:49 am

@Jessey Lawson: you can have two mouse devices at the same time but it is not working out of the box as it is not very common and therefore you have to configure it yourself. The technology in X11 is "Multi-pointer X" and get used in multiseat environments too (some people share the same workstation with more as one attached keyboard and mouse) - using your favorite search engine should show some guides but here is one from Arch: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Multi-pointer_X - maybe this is useful for you.

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Re: Best Display server for Linux Mint.

Post by LinWinux » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:05 am

@Jessey Lawson

Dude, your complete lack of comprehending the inner workings of Linux and your lack of many years computing shows so bad, it's almost sad. You don't have the first clue what multi-tasking is actually supposed to be and then you create this biased poll while touting a bunch of nonsense that makes little to no sense for people who actually know a lot about computers. You're the one who's not paying attention that what people are telling you. You're the one who's not paying attention to the information that you're being provided here.

Before you were born (20 or so years ago?) everything was done one application at a time on a single screen. Even when OS became graphic, like with Windows 2.0 it wasn't much of an improvement because computers could only handle 256 colors on a 128KB or a 256 KB graphic chip. However, the idea of multi-tasking was indeed created with OS like VMS, Alpha, (all before your time) and subsequently Windows, Mac, Linux. etc. As graphic chips became larger, faster, more colorful ... and as OS evolved ... and as computers became faster with more memory ... multi-tasking became more and more popular, used by almost everyone. Ever since computers with task bars existed multi-tasking has been part of computing because that's the whole friggen' purpose of task bars ...
Enabling the user to perform multiple tasks at once !!!

Single tasking = One screen with one open app and one set of processes for that app (in a nutshell).

Multi-tasking = One or more screens (for the same user) with multiple applications being used simultaneously.

Get it now? That's what multi-tasking is, and not the nonsense wishful thinking that you're describing. :evil:

What you're describing and wishing for actually exists and has existed for many years. You just don't like to read and do your own research. If you did, you'd already know that. It's called server software with workstations and in that specific field Unix, Alpha, and Linux actually rule the world !!! It's server side software OS with an admin account which then distributes individual users with individual access permissions (for security reasons) to various keyboards, mice, and screens ... all of which are used simultaneously ... yet also individually. Your problem is that you don't want to except (or so it seems) that when you want to do things out of the ordinary ... then you have to be willing to do some of the work by yourself.
999 out of 1000 users here don't need nor want what you're looking for because it's total overkill.
This has nothing to do with xorg or wayland or any other display server!

I'm multi-tasking every day. As a matter of fact, right now I have multiple items open in Gimp, within workspace three. That all by itself already qualifies as multi-tasking since I'm using above and beyond a single workspace, and then with extra applications that have several different tasks assigned to them. But in addition I'm also using multi-media related software on my second workspace. And if that's not good enough for you, I'm using my LibreOffice calc, Thunderbird, Komodo, and Firefox on my first workspace. I'm multi-tasking just nicely, getting a ton of things done that weren't even conceivable before multi-tasking came along.

BTW, if you ever bothered to look up the definition of multi-tasking, this is what you'd find:

mul·ti·task·ing
ˌməltiˈtaskiNG,ˌməltī-/
noun
gerund or present participle: multi-tasking

1. Computing
the simultaneous execution of more than one program or task by a single computer processor.


Nothing worse on a forum than someone with lack of experience who thinks they know it all.
Simply unbelievable. :roll:
Mods ... please ... close this thread already, it's obviously a lost cause.

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PLEASE ... Help others, don't be lazy! Take a moment to mark your post SOLVED if you received a solution.

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