Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Questions about applications and software
Forum rules
Before you post please read how to get help
Post Reply
mattlach
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 8:34 pm

Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by mattlach » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:11 pm

Hey all,

Call me old school if you like, but I'm the kind of guy who likes doing many things from the console.

I almost always run my updates using apt-get from the console, but after installing Mint 18 (Cinnamon edition) I noticed that the latest kernel update was only in the GUI Update Manager. It did not pop up using apt-get. (See below, click for larger)

Image

Does anyone know why this is? Is this intended behavior, and how things are to be going forward?

Much appreciated.

--Matt
Desktop: Intel i7-3930K@4.8Ghz, Asus P9X79 WS, 64GB DDR3-1866, 400GB Intel 750 SSD, Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD, Nvidia Titan X (Pascal)
Proxmox (NAS, Mythbuntu, etc.): 2x Xeon E5-2650v2, 256GB RAM, 120TB ZFS

User avatar
don250r
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:41 pm

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by don250r » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:15 pm

Theres always kernel.org :)
Mint 18 Cinnamon, 4.6.3 kernel
Intel i5-2500k@4.8GHz
16 Gb DDR3
Nvidia GTX670

User avatar
Pjotr
Level 21
Level 21
Posts: 13706
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:18 am
Location: The Netherlands (Holland)
Contact:

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by Pjotr » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:17 pm

First of all: updating like you do, with "apt-get upgrade" and even "apt-get dist-upgrade", completely bypasses the protective level system in Update Manager.... That's only advisable on test rigs, not on production computers or even on computers you rely on for everyday use.

Now as to your question: in Update Manager, have you selected the update policy "Always update everything", before you tried to use the terminal?
Tip: 10 things to do after installing Linux Mint 19.2 Tina
Keep your Linux Mint healthy: Avoid these 10 fatal mistakes
Twitter: twitter.com/easylinuxtips
All in all, horse sense simply makes sense.

mattlach
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 8:34 pm

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by mattlach » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:23 pm

Pjotr wrote:First of all: updating like you do, with "apt-get upgrade" and even "apt-get dist-upgrade", completely bypasses the protective level system in Update Manager.... That's only advisable on test rigs, not on production computers or even on computers you rely on for everyday use.

Now as to your question: in Update Manager, have you selected the update policy "Always update everything", before you tried to use the terminal?
That is one of the reasons I didn't use the Update Manager in 13 through 17.3. I found it to be extremely overprotective.

The packages that are in the repositories are stable versions. Sure something COULD break, but since Mint 13, I haven't had this happen even once.

I prefer the method in apt-get where most packages are installed with apt-get upgrade, and some are held back for me to make a judgment call on, and if I am comfortable, I can do an apt-get dist-upgrade.

And yes, I did run the Update Manager first, and saw the new option for level of upgrade risk tolerance upon launching it, and set it to upgrade everything.

My assumption would have been that "Always update everything" would have been equivalent to the old system but checking all the boxes next to the red 5's, which I've always done.

Either way, this is beside the point. I can understand why they would like to hide some updates in the GUI Update Manager to save some people from themselves, especially those who don't know how to fix things if they go wrong. What's puzzling me is that there are updates (notably this kernel update) that appear in the GUI, but don't appear when using apt-get directly.

Do the two use different sources now? If Apt isn't seeing this available kernel update, where is the GUI seeing it?

I would expect this level of protection when it comes to switching to new branches of the kernel, but when moving from an older revision in the same branch to a newer revision in the same branch like I did (4.4.0-21 to 4.4.0-28) I wouldn't have expected this to be classified as particularly critical.

Either way, I am not looking to be critical towards how they have chosen to implement things in this revision. I'm just trying to understand how it works now, so I can figure out how I will go about managing my systems in the future.

For years now I have relied on apt from the console to hold back new kernel updates, but still allow me to manually install them with either dist-upgrade or by calling out the kernel by name, and also expecting apt to automatically maintain the last two kernel versions and purge older ones using autoremove, as to avoid disks filling up with kernels, when security updates are pushed.

If I can no longer do this, I need to figure out what I can do now.
Desktop: Intel i7-3930K@4.8Ghz, Asus P9X79 WS, 64GB DDR3-1866, 400GB Intel 750 SSD, Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD, Nvidia Titan X (Pascal)
Proxmox (NAS, Mythbuntu, etc.): 2x Xeon E5-2650v2, 256GB RAM, 120TB ZFS

Cosmo.
Level 23
Level 23
Posts: 17830
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:34 am

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by Cosmo. » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:39 pm

If you live comfortable with the risk of regressions (the fact, that you never encountered any does not mean, that there was never any; it means, you did not notice it), it is your decision.

The answer to your question is simple: kernel don't get updated like other packages, they get installed besides the existing kernel(s), which do not get removed. apt-ger upgrade offers updates, not new packages. Indeed, the update manager offers more.

mattlach
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 8:34 pm

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by mattlach » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:14 pm

Cosmo. wrote: The answer to your question is simple: kernel don't get updated like other packages, they get installed besides the existing kernel(s), which do not get removed. apt-ger upgrade offers updates, not new packages. Indeed, the update manager offers more.
This is incorrect.

In previous versions (including 17.3) apt get would offer to install a newer kernel in the same branch alongside the previous kernel in that branch. It would keep two of them, and purge older ones using "apt-get autoremove".

Only when switching to a new branch of the kernel would the update manager be needed. This could be donw in apt as wepp using "apt-get install <kernelname>" but you'd have to know the exact name of the kernel.
Desktop: Intel i7-3930K@4.8Ghz, Asus P9X79 WS, 64GB DDR3-1866, 400GB Intel 750 SSD, Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD, Nvidia Titan X (Pascal)
Proxmox (NAS, Mythbuntu, etc.): 2x Xeon E5-2650v2, 256GB RAM, 120TB ZFS

Cosmo.
Level 23
Level 23
Posts: 17830
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:34 am

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by Cosmo. » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:21 pm

I just run apt-get upgrade in LM 17.3 test system, using the pre-installed kernel. No kernel gets offered.

greywolf
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:20 pm

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by greywolf » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:41 pm

Just a tangent thought @mattlach, could it be something to do with a difference between "apt-get" and the "apt" being used nowadays? They are different apps BTW, not that I have studied the differences too much.

I get your original point though. "dist-upgrade" and "update everything" should offer exactly the same, assuming they are reading the same repositories?

Being a cli junkie from WAY back myself, I will follow this with interest.

greywolf.
It is about the Dragons - it was always about the Dragons!

mattlach
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 8:34 pm

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by mattlach » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:59 pm

Cosmo. wrote:I just run apt-get upgrade in LM 17.3 test system, using the pre-installed kernel. No kernel gets offered.
That is very strange.

In my 17.3 installs I get frequent Kernel updates through apt-get
Desktop: Intel i7-3930K@4.8Ghz, Asus P9X79 WS, 64GB DDR3-1866, 400GB Intel 750 SSD, Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD, Nvidia Titan X (Pascal)
Proxmox (NAS, Mythbuntu, etc.): 2x Xeon E5-2650v2, 256GB RAM, 120TB ZFS

User avatar
Pjotr
Level 21
Level 21
Posts: 13706
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:18 am
Location: The Netherlands (Holland)
Contact:

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by Pjotr » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:39 am

Cosmo. wrote:I just run apt-get upgrade in LM 17.3 test system, using the pre-installed kernel. No kernel gets offered.
If you run "apt-get dist-upgrade" instead, it probably would. :)
Tip: 10 things to do after installing Linux Mint 19.2 Tina
Keep your Linux Mint healthy: Avoid these 10 fatal mistakes
Twitter: twitter.com/easylinuxtips
All in all, horse sense simply makes sense.

mattlach
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 8:34 pm

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by mattlach » Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:38 pm

Pjotr wrote:
Cosmo. wrote:I just run apt-get upgrade in LM 17.3 test system, using the pre-installed kernel. No kernel gets offered.
If you run "apt-get dist-upgrade" instead, it probably would. :)

Well, usually they appear in the regular "apt-get upgrade" but are held back. You know:

"7 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded."

The "2 not upgraded" would be the new kernel, and they would be listed in detail above.

So it shows them with "apt-get upgrade", it just doesn't install them unless you specifically specify the package that is held back with "apt-get install <package>" or decide to upgrade all packages that are held back with "apt-get dist-upgrade"
Desktop: Intel i7-3930K@4.8Ghz, Asus P9X79 WS, 64GB DDR3-1866, 400GB Intel 750 SSD, Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD, Nvidia Titan X (Pascal)
Proxmox (NAS, Mythbuntu, etc.): 2x Xeon E5-2650v2, 256GB RAM, 120TB ZFS

scorp123
Level 8
Level 8
Posts: 2277
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:19 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by scorp123 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:04 pm

mattlach wrote: Call me old school if you like, but I'm the kind of guy who likes doing many things from the console.
Yup. Same.
mattlach wrote: I almost always run my updates using apt-get from the console...
I let ansible do that for me. :twisted:

So for me it is very important that *all* updates are applied via shell commands. I don't want to be bothered with those things while I am working on those systems... :roll:
mattlach wrote:I noticed that the latest kernel update was only in the GUI Update Manager. It did not pop up using apt-get. Does anyone know why this is?
I think I figured it out. I quickly compared my Mint installations with my Ubuntu and Debian installations and I saw a few things that were different...

Now, before we proceed:

* DO NOT FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS HERE ... *
... U N L E S S you are perfectly fine having to repair your system in case something breaks.


Ubuntu systems usually install a selection of 'virtual' Linux kernel packages (e.g. packages with no real content) that always point to the newest kernel release that is available via the repositories. Via the dependency system those packages then pull in the rest and you also get the right firmware and headers package that goes with that kernel.

On my Mint installations some of those packages were missing (they were not installed). The result was that "apt-get" never pulled in the latest kernel.

Names of the packages:

Code: Select all

linux-base
linux-firmware
linux-generic
linux-headers-generic
linux-image-generic
These packages always point to the latest version in the repository (depends on what repositories you have configured + enabled!).

For example, at the time as I write this "linux-image-generic" points to "linux-image-4.4.0-51-generic". In other words, that's kernel version 4.4.0-51. The other packages there do the same, e.g. "linux-headers-generic" points to "linux-headers-4.4.0-51-generic", and so on, and so on.

By making sure that these virtual kernel packages are installed it should be possible for "apt" to pull in new kernel updates when they become available. Sooooo ... try what happens if you install those packages?

As per disclaimer above: It might break your system, mess with some Mint-internal mechanism, create an anomaly in the space-time continuum, and so on. If you're fine with that give this a shot?

scorp123
Level 8
Level 8
Posts: 2277
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:19 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by scorp123 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:07 pm

scorp123 wrote:The result was that "apt-get" never pulled in the latest kernel.

Names of the packages:

Code: Select all

linux-base
linux-firmware
linux-generic
linux-headers-generic
linux-image-generic
These packages always point to the latest version in the repository (depends on what repositories you have configured + enabled!).

Bingo! Works for me. :D

Code: Select all

> sys-update.sh 
[sudo] password for sysadm:

Hit:1 http://ubuntu.ethz.ch/ubuntu xenial InRelease
Hit:2 http://ppa.launchpad.net/gencfsm/ppa/ubuntu xenial InRelease                                                                                           

< ... skipped parts ...>

Fetched 2'100 kB in 2s (959 kB/s)                                                             
Reading package lists... Done
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  linux-headers-4.4.0-53 linux-headers-4.4.0-53-generic linux-image-4.4.0-53-generic linux-image-extra-4.4.0-53-generic
The following packages will be upgraded:
  libprocps4 linux-headers-generic linux-image-generic linux-libc-dev procps
5 upgraded, 4 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 67.9 MB of archives.
After this operation, 238 MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] Y
As you can see above, updating the kernel via shell commands works all of a sudden now: "apt-get" now wants to download kernel 4.4.0-53 from the repositories.

And please ignore the "sys-update.sh" call above ... that's a custom update script that also does a few other things than just "apt-get".... The important part here is that YES, with my little change above I now also get kernel updates via the shell.

DISCLAIMER: as stated above, THIS MIGHT BREAK YOUR MINT INSTALLATION. If you lack experience and don't have a very strong Linux background then I kindly recommend you stay away from this post and DO NOT reproduce any of the steps.

ManTaRa
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:52 pm

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by ManTaRa » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:51 pm

scorp123 wrote:
mattlach wrote: Call me old school if you like, but I'm the kind of guy who likes doing many things from the console.
Yup. Same.
mattlach wrote: I almost always run my updates using apt-get from the console...
I let ansible do that for me. :twisted:

So for me it is very important that *all* updates are applied via shell commands. I don't want to be bothered with those things while I am working on those systems... :roll:
mattlach wrote:I noticed that the latest kernel update was only in the GUI Update Manager. It did not pop up using apt-get. Does anyone know why this is?
I think I figured it out. I quickly compared my Mint installations with my Ubuntu and Debian installations and I saw a few things that were different...

On my Mint installations some of those packages were missing (they were not installed). The result was that "apt-get" never pulled in the latest kernel.

Names of the packages:

Code: Select all

linux-base
linux-firmware
linux-generic
linux-headers-generic
linux-image-generic
These packages always point to the latest version in the repository (depends on what repositories you have configured + enabled!).
@thread posters: Just posted a similar issue this am and got pointed to this thread from there viewtopic.php?f=90&t=235069&p=1249636#p1249636 . . . but, over here I'm "with you" on the removal of kernel upgrades from the Terminal as being "unnecessary" . . . as it hasn't really been an issue in LM or ubuntu for quite awhile . . . especially if not upgrading to a sid kernel, etc.

But, question for scorp123, as I'm not working in linux right now, are you running "sudo apt-get install linux-base linux-etc" as a list of items? Or, it seems like LM is now using just "apt"?? Question is what is the exact commands you are using?

MTR

scorp123
Level 8
Level 8
Posts: 2277
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:19 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by scorp123 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:57 am

ManTaRa wrote: But, question for scorp123, as I'm not working in linux right now, are you running "sudo apt-get install linux-base linux-etc" as a list of items? Or, it seems like LM is now using just "apt"?? Question is what is the exact commands you are using?
I use ansible at home and puppet (... historical reasons ...) at work.

Wikipedia entry about "ansible":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansible_(software)

Wikipedia entry about "puppet":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppet_(software)

Long story short:

these frameworks in turn use whatever package manager is "right" for the distribution they are managing ... which in case of Debian/Ubuntu based distributions means that yes, they will resort to apt-get update && apt-get -y dist-upgrade to get packages and updates installed.

Details are explained here:
http://blog.programster.org/ansible-upd ... d-systems/
Last edited by scorp123 on Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ManTaRa
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:52 pm

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by ManTaRa » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:18 pm

@scorp123:

Appreciate the reply and the links, I'll have to read over it a few times, from quick read it looks like they are more for server upgrades across a number of machines?? So. obviously using the console would reduce the work load tremendously . . . . For my personal uses on a couple computers running LM I might just have to "non-resist" the Borg . . . and use the GUI for, urp, kernel upgrades??? But, if I get a spare moment I'll look at what you have shared here.

MTR

scorp123
Level 8
Level 8
Posts: 2277
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:19 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by scorp123 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:18 pm

ManTaRa wrote:... from quick read it looks like they are more for server upgrades across a number of machines??
This stuff works just as fine on any desktop machines. Whether or not those systems are really servers running server workloads (e.g. web sites, file services, etc.) or actual desktops with GUI programs and desktop environments doesn't really matter.

Look at it this way:
  • How long does it take you to update 1 x system?
  • How long does it take you to update 3 x systems?
  • What if you're like me and you have like 5-6 physical systems at home and then some VMs too? Let's say: 12 x systems in total?
Let's assume a complete download of all the packages + performing a system update + package upgrade (where needed) + reboot (if needed) takes like 15 minutes. Let's also assume you only login at 1 x of those desktops / VMs at a time (no parallel logins... I mean who does that anyway?).

So ... that's like 12 x 15 minutes = 180 minutes.

Soooo ... Looks like I'd have to spend 3 hours per day updating my systems everytime patches and updates are released? :shock:

The alternative would of course be that I don't bother about updates and leave all the systems I don't use that much in an unpatched state .... But that would only delay the problem and not really solve anything, e.g. the next time I login I'd have even more packages to download and it would take even longer, thus it would end up to cost me even more time and keep me from doing what I actually wanted to do on that system!? :roll:

Hence why I use something like "ansible".

One of the systems here is the "Master" and it automagically logs into every reachable system + performs all needed updates + reboots (if configured... I don't want automatic reboots on every system). And it does all that behind my back.

So the next time I sit down and login .... the system is already patched + rebooted. I don't have to bother with that, it doesn't cost me time, I can go ahead and do the actual work I wanted to do.... :mrgreen:

scorp123
Level 8
Level 8
Posts: 2277
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:19 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by scorp123 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:24 pm

BTW, if you have multiple systems but you don't want to install a management framework (... I agree, it's a bit of an "overkill" ...) you could use something like "Cluster SSH". You'd perform 1 x SSH login to multiple systems at once and then issue the same command to them at the same time.

Tutorial:
https://www.linux.com/learn/managing-mu ... clusterssh

That way you could still use sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade against multiple systems at once, without having to mess with something like "ansible", "puppet", "chef", "cfengine" etc.

ManTaRa
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:52 pm

Re: Mint 18: Kernel updates only in GUI Update Manager?

Post by ManTaRa » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:00 pm

scorp123 wrote:BTW, if you have multiple systems but you don't want to install a management framework (... I agree, it's a bit of an "overkill" ...) you could use something like "Cluster SSH". You'd perform 1 x SSH login to multiple systems at once and then issue the same command to them at the same time.

Tutorial:
https://www.linux.com/learn/managing-mu ... clusterssh

That way you could still use sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade against multiple systems at once, without having to mess with something like "ansible", "puppet", "chef", "cfengine" etc.
@scorp123:

Agreed, the "care and feeding" of multiple systems, or even one, does take up time . . . time that I don't really have to spend on it. I think we are both, plus a few others, of similar mind that the Updater method adds a layer of complication, which could be "helpful" for some, but, not for those used to working with basic console commands. I like simple, perhaps the "cluster SSH" method might be better for my time frame; it mostly for s**ts and giggles right now as far as any linux OS goes, day to day biz is run on OSX 10.9. I'm trying to get more educated and comfortable using a linux system so that I can transfer over in the near future.

For my primary linux use I just have a desktop and a laptop with dual-boot set up; it's not an endless stream of machines, although if I included PPC units that would add up . . . but, even Debian is now dropping PPC from support.

Anyway, thanks for the links and support, appreciate that.

Post Reply

Return to “Software & Applications”