Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Questions about applications and software
Forum rules
Before you post please read how to get help
Post Reply
MrT
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:21 pm

Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Post by MrT » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:50 pm

I have a laptop running Linux Mint 18.3 in dual boot alongside Windows 10
My graphic card is a NVIDIA Quadro P5000 and Kaby Lake CPU. Linux Mint does not work with kernels older than the 4.10.xx series. for that particular hardware. Hence I have always been
working with newer kernels which I upgrade almost religiously. Also, due to my particular GPU, I have been forced to install several NVIDIA drivers, and found that I get the best results with
the 387 series driver which is what I have active. The 384 is ok-ish, but the 387 is definitely the best.

I have upgraded the kernel since day 1. Until recently, up to kernel 4.14.8 that is, I had no problems both running Cinnamon or MATE. None whatsoever!
Starting with kernel 4.14.9 on it has been a completely different story:

1) Cinnamon crushes immediately in a systematic manner;
2) MATE starts, but it cannot see the second display, i.e. it works but with only one display. Display cannot do anything to fix the problem as it just refuses to see any other monitor connected via
HDMI.

What did I try? I tried purging the nvidia drivers and re-installing them, under the assumption that they would be built under the new kernel. That seems to be the case as a matter of fact
and if I check by using the driver manager, the 387 driver is properly checked as when using the 4.14.8 kernel. However the Nvidia X settings is just an empty shell with actually no settings at all.
It is as if it did not exist and nothing I tried seems to help.
I think that the problem lies with the fact that the X settings are not properly implemented.

At this point I exhausted all ideas and have no idea on what to do. I am fairly confident that the problem is that the X-settings are not in place. I fell back on kernel 4.14.8, reinstalled the NVIDIA drivers
for it and it works well as before (both Cinnamon and MATE). I am also confident that the guys working on kernels have changed something that breaks things, but stince the 4.14. series kernels are LTS, sooner or later they will be used by everyone. Some (working with different distro of Linux) insist that NVIDIA drivers no longer build in the kernel. But if that were the case, I did the re-installation under
the newer kernel and that should have taken care of the issue.

I say thank you in advance to anyone who has any solid idea on how to solve the issue. I have exhausted my imagination about what to do.

MrT

deepakdeshp
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 3853
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:00 am

Re: Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Post by deepakdeshp » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:50 am

If I have helped you solve a problem, please add [SOLVED] to your first post title, it helps other users looking for help, and keeps the forum clean.
I am using Mint 19 Cinnamon 64 bit with AMD A8/7410 processor . Memory 8GB

MrT
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:21 pm

Re: Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Post by MrT » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:24 am

@deepakdeshp
Thank you. But the first part is something that I have tried already. Nouveau is not working too well with my GPU. There are constant rendering issues and machine get "cranky" when I am using it. All I know is that my machine worked great with the Nvidia 387 driver up to Linux Kernel 4.14.9. The difference between the Nvidia 387 and the Nouveau is like night and day on my laptop. They must have changed some low level stuff in the kernel and now until Nvidia will fix their own drivers to run under those new specs, I am basically screwed. Either I fall back on the 4.13 series to get the patches, but it will be only for a short time or I stick with the 4.14.8 since the 4.14 line is an LTS thing.
Or I just use my Mint with only one display using MATE. It is my story with Linux: I seldom run into problems with Linux, but when they happen, they tend to be of the hard kind.

First time I actually think that Linux is getting as messy as Windows. It might be faster to upgrade, but it is not pain free either, sadly. Thank you, anyway.

User avatar
michael louwe
Level 9
Level 9
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:18 pm

Re: Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Post by michael louwe » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:18 am

@ MrT, .......
MrT wrote:Linux Mint does not work with kernels older than the 4.10.xx series. for that particular hardware. Hence I have always been
working with newer kernels which I upgrade almost religiously.
.
This is a wrong concept, eg should you be still always upgrading to newer Linux kernels(= eg 6.14.9) in 2023 for your "old" Kabylake-based computer.?

In general, new Linux kernels are for new hardware. Old computers should stick with old kernels or old OS, eg LM 17.x.

By design, a new kernel is created to cater for newer hardware drivers support, etc. 7th-gen-Kabylake-based computers should already be fully supported by kernel 4.13. So, such computers should stick with kernel 4.13 or 4.14.0 LTS.
... The latest 8th-gen-Coffeelake chip likely does not have support from kernel 4.14 = will have to wait for kernel 4.15 or later.

Recently, some old computers were borked by installing the non-LTS Ubuntu 17.10 which came with the bleeding-edge kernel 4.13.

About the need to upgrade Linux kernels, please refer to ... http://www.fosslinux.com/1015/what-is-l ... kernel.htm

MrT
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:21 pm

Re: Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Post by MrT » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:45 pm

@michael louwe
You are right! In fact, I crushed my old laptop by upgrading too much. But, it is quite simple to revert back to the previous kernel by starting the machine in recovery mode and selecting the previous kernel. Right now, I am, actually was, enjoying my, let's call it, 1 year of glory when one can have a state of the art laptop. In 1-2 years it will probably be already 9.5 lb of old hardware. However, sometimes I wonder with the older kernels, if they will keep receive the security updates. For a while, yes, but after that?

In any case, my problem is that the kernel 4.14 should work fine on my machine. And I was planning to stop there as it is an LTS item. But now I wonder if I should stick with 4.14.8 or revert back to the latest 4.13 series kernel.

deepakdeshp
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 3853
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:00 am

Re: Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Post by deepakdeshp » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:58 pm

In any case, my problem is that the kernel 4.14 should work fine on my machine. And I was planning to stop there as it is an LTS item. But now I wonder if I should stick with 4.14.8 or revert back to the latest 4.13 series kernel.
4.14 isn't officially supported on Mint as of now. Of course you should keep the kernel which works for all your hardware. As for security, Linux is secure by design and there are no viruses AFAIK
If I have helped you solve a problem, please add [SOLVED] to your first post title, it helps other users looking for help, and keeps the forum clean.
I am using Mint 19 Cinnamon 64 bit with AMD A8/7410 processor . Memory 8GB

MrT
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:21 pm

Re: Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Post by MrT » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:36 pm

@deepakdepsh

Well.. I am not a big believer in something that is completely safe. Someone, somewhere, sometimes, will find the way to get in if he or she wants to.

Just read this today, for instance:

https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/ne ... ux-kernels

That is why, it might be wrong to continue upgrading linux kernels like I do, but there is also something scary about just adopting one and forget about any issues.

I am still upset that the people at the Linux Kernel broke the drivers by changing something in their kernel program. But there was an explicit invitation to upgrade to 4.14.10 a few days ago, for instance.

MrT

MrT
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:21 pm

Re: Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Post by MrT » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:25 pm

Found this.. Happy to see that it is not just me in case someone had the same issues.

https://devtalk.nvidia.com/default/topi ... /?offset=2

User avatar
majpooper
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 653
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 1:56 pm
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Post by majpooper » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:30 pm

Upgrading kernels on a test machine is fine if you like experimenting but a bad idea on your daily driver.

"Until recently, up to kernel 4.14.8 that is, I had no problems both running Cinnamon or MATE. None whatsoever! "

Once you have a supported kernel that runs you machine - stick with it and keep it updated - no need to upgrade. Never the less if a kernel breaks your machine you can always go back to a previous on that worked without any problems.

"but there is also something scary about just adopting one and forget about any issues".

Keeping a kernel updated with security and bug fixes is not scary or forgetting about any issues. Upgrading to a kernel that you don't need to support you hardware -now that is scary.

User avatar
Pjotr
Level 20
Level 20
Posts: 10962
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:18 am
Location: The Netherlands (Holland)
Contact:

Re: Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Post by Pjotr » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:41 pm

majpooper wrote:Keeping a kernel updated with security and bug fixes is not scary or forgetting about any issues. Upgrading to a kernel that you don't need to support your hardware -now that is scary.
Indeed. And in this case, one that isn't even officially supported. :shock:
Tip: 10 things to do after installing Linux Mint 19 Tara
Keep your Linux Mint healthy: Avoid these 10 fatal mistakes
Twitter: twitter.com/easylinuxtips
All in all, horse sense simply makes sense.

User avatar
gld59
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:05 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Post by gld59 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:17 pm

If MrT has made a mistake here, it's a pretty understandable one. Just compare the LTS versions shown at https://www.kernel.org/category/releases.html and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Support and you can see why MrT has gone for 4.14 where 4.13 (or even 4.10) may have been a better choice.
majpooper wrote:Once you have a supported kernel that runs you machine - stick with it and keep it updated - no need to upgrade.
That's what happened here, though. 4.14.8 was working for MrT, but updating to 4.14.9 broke things. The word "supported" is the possibly confusing bit - 4.14 is "supported" in the sense the Linux Kernel Organization shows it as LTS, but Ubuntu has instead chosen 4.15 as their upcoming LTS.

As 4.10 drops off the Ubuntu support timeline next month, perhaps MrT should hold out until April with either 4.14.8 or something based on 4.13 versions from the Update Manager, and then try out 4.15.

User avatar
Pjotr
Level 20
Level 20
Posts: 10962
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:18 am
Location: The Netherlands (Holland)
Contact:

Re: Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Post by Pjotr » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:24 pm

The kernel support schedule at kernel.org is utterly irrelevant for Mint users. For users of Linux Mint 18.x, only the kernel support schedule of Ubuntu 16.04 is relevant:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Support# ... el_Support

That's it and that's all. 8)

Don't mess with your kernel without good reasons. It's the very core of your operating system.
Tip: 10 things to do after installing Linux Mint 19 Tara
Keep your Linux Mint healthy: Avoid these 10 fatal mistakes
Twitter: twitter.com/easylinuxtips
All in all, horse sense simply makes sense.

MrT
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:21 pm

Re: Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Post by MrT » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:12 pm

Well, nobody died. I just reverted back to 4.14.8 and I am alive. Thankfully, if one thing is really good about grub is the ability to go back and restart over in 20 seconds or so.
It is true, 4.10 worked, but the 4.13 has worked better for my machine on my particular workstation. Instead, it is correct to say that I did not notice any real improvement going for the 4.14 series from 4.13, but that is me. However, I am sure that the kernel will work fine on my machine once the changes that the Linux Kernel Group made to the kernel will be digested by the drivers' people and things will improve. I am confident that I might even get the 4.15 line of kernels, although, it would be more for fun than anything else. I am not a Linux guru, but I can still build my drivers in the kernel and in the past it worked. Just the same approach does not seem to work with 4.14.9 and above. For now that is. And I am not alone in having had issues going from 4.14.8 to 4.14.9 and above. An Ubuntu thread showed that others share my current "misery".
The sun will rise tomorrow with me having 4.14.8 or any other Linux kernel.

If I made a mistake, it was assuming that once a kernel reaches EOL it is no longer patched or updated for security. And that is what prompted me to go to the 4.14 series as it is an LTS. My car is 20 year old and sometimes it is hard to find the parts to fix it. I assumed that with Linux kernels it was the same story. Maybe my understanding of the issue is off.

Sorry for the thread, but truly there was a change in the kernel that got a lot of people in trouble. And if I had waited for Linux Mint to move forward, my workstation would have been idle for months as when I originally decided to get serious and use Linux, the supported kernel was living in another century compared to my hardware: great on my 8 year old laptop, useless on my 2017 one (with Kaby Lake and Quadro). So I was sort of forced to take things in my hands, more so than I signed on for, actually. Then, maybe, somewhere along the road, I got addicted to kernels and became a junkie.

MrT

User avatar
smurphos
Level 8
Level 8
Posts: 2013
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:18 am
Location: Britisher...

Re: Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Post by smurphos » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:38 am

MrT wrote:If I made a mistake, it was assuming that once a kernel reaches EOL it is no longer patched or updated for security. And that is what prompted me to go to the 4.14 series as it is an LTS. My car is 20 year old and sometimes it is hard to find the parts to fix it. I assumed that with Linux kernels it was the same story. Maybe my understanding of the issue is off.

Sorry for the thread, but truly there was a change in the kernel that got a lot of people in trouble. And if I had waited for Linux Mint to move forward, my workstation would have been idle for months as when I originally decided to get serious and use Linux, the supported kernel was living in another century compared to my hardware: great on my 8 year old laptop, useless on my 2017 one (with Kaby Lake and Quadro). So I was sort of forced to take things in my hands, more so than I signed on for, actually. Then, maybe, somewhere along the road, I got addicted to kernels and became a junkie.
MrT
Don't be sorry - it highlights some common misunderstandings. You are not wrong the EOL means EOL means no further security or bug patches, but I think you have failed to digest that Mint, being based on Ubuntu, by default uses the Ubuntu maintained kernels and not the upstream mainline kernels released at kernel.org.

So what's the difference? Ubuntu uses the mainline release code and apply various Ubuntu specific patches, add additional drivers and then continue to maintain that series. Sometimes the Ubuntu fixes are ported upstream and applied as fixes to later mainline releases. If the upstream source goes EOL Ubuntu continue to maintain by backporting security patches. Ubuntu decide which base they want to support as LTS independently of kernel.org.

By using the Ubuntu releases you get the benefit of a stable base (being a few months old), improved driver support, the Ubuntu maintainers applying additional fixes and tweaks and finally the Mint team's oversight who could block any kernel released by Ubuntu with show-stopping bugs by tagging it as a level 5 in Update Manager.

Mint 18.x is based on Ubuntu 16.04.x. For 16.04.x Ubuntu maintains a LTS kernel (4.4.0-x), a HWE (Hardware Enablement) kernel for newer hardware (currently a 4.10.0-x) and a HWE-Edge (currently a 4.13.0-x) (for really new hardware). All are available in the Update Manager and can be manually installed.

In your situation, I'd be reverting to 4.10.0-x if it works OK with your hardware.

If you really need a 4.13.0.-x, 4.13.0-21 (the latest currently available) appears to have been patched for the Lenovo BIOS killing bug recently in the news.

From February 18 4.13.0.x will become HWE and we can expect a 4.15.0-x to appear as HWE-Edge. From August 4.15.0-x will be HWE for 16.04.x and will continue to be maintained until 16.04.x is EOL in 2021. 4.15.0-x will also be the LTS kernel for Ubuntu 18.04 and Mint 19.

If you revert to 4.10.0-x or 4.13.0-x now Update Manager should take care of bumping you up to 4.15.0-x. I'd expect that your current issue will have been patched by someone by the time that comes around.

I hope that rather long winded explanation helps.... ;-)

Some links....

https://askubuntu.com/questions/37147/w ... tream-kern
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Support
http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/inf ... n-map.html
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/FAQ

MrT
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:21 pm

Re: Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Post by MrT » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:55 am

@ smurphos

Thank you. Finally I know how the kernel "thing" works instead of second guessing it. As I wrote 4.13 works better than 4.10 for my machine. So, if I revert back to that, it will be 4.13. However, I do believe that something will need to happen with the 4.14 line and sooner rather than later because, again, as I explained I am not alone in having issues. I tried to build my driver for the NVIDIA-387 driver (my Quadro seems to work better with the 387 than the more traditional 384 driver) under the 4.14.11 kernel. It seems to build, but then it does not work. The settings on the X-server seems missing even if the proper driver is checked. And the same is happening

http://rglinuxtech.com/?cat=18

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topi ... el-4-14-9/

I will wait or revert back to the latest 4.13 kernel.

I appreciated your help.
MrT

User avatar
Pjotr
Level 20
Level 20
Posts: 10962
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:18 am
Location: The Netherlands (Holland)
Contact:

Re: Linux kernels 4.14.9 and newer crush Cinnamon and more

Post by Pjotr » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:39 am

MrT wrote:However, I do believe that something will need to happen with the 4.14 line and sooner rather than later because, again, as I explained I am not alone in having issues.
No. Nothing at all needs to happen with the 4.14 kernel series, because that particular series doesn't even show up in the Ubuntu kernel support schedule.

Why on earth would the Ubuntu devs have to spend their limited time and resources on maintaining a kernel series that's not even in their support schedule? Just because some ill-informed guys have mistakenly installed it in their Ubuntu or Mint?
I will wait or revert back to the latest 4.13 kernel.
Revert back. Best thing to do.
Tip: 10 things to do after installing Linux Mint 19 Tara
Keep your Linux Mint healthy: Avoid these 10 fatal mistakes
Twitter: twitter.com/easylinuxtips
All in all, horse sense simply makes sense.

Post Reply

Return to “Software & Applications”