Latex for writing books

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WriteF
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Latex for writing books

Post by WriteF »

So I have been working for a long time now on a book with a TON of illustrations.

The problem is that text editors such as MS Word, Libreoffice Writer and my preferred one FreeOffice Textmaker move stuff around as the file gets saved over and over and grows bigger. I am very careful with pagebreaks and proper paragraphs but it seems rather inevitable.

Then I noticed that Latex is interesting since I am for now working with HTML and it seems similar. I mostly see it being suggested for scientific writing and complicated equations, so I am wondering if it is suitable for writing large illustrated documents. For just text I use Focuswriter, but it kind of falls short there.

The ideal of something with which I can just 'compile' to PDF and such is very appealing. Does anyone have any experience with this? Getting used to it and copying over my private website seems like it will take a lot of work so I would rather not waste it.
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absque fenestris
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by absque fenestris »

No idea about LaTeX, but you could definitely use Scribus for a large book project.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by rene »

Certainly you can use LaTeX for a general book and with or without illustrations but it's frankly probably not the best of ideas. LaTeX is indeed mostly geared towards scientific content, mathematical formulae most primarily, and is fairly specifically used by writers of such documents so as to concentrate on the content, while producing a standard, uniform but still good looking and correct result. Used, I would say, fairly specifically non-creatively that is, almost as the entire point of the system, and that shows.

Illustrations are not a problem but doing other than say grid placing a few of them may well be. The more creative you get the greater a pain in the butt LaTeX becomes so if you are talking about a book with creatively placed illustrations with flowing text around them or some such I'd quickly feel that a standard WYSIWYG word processor is going to be a better match. Some of that feeling may be due to my own experience having been (mostly) limited to scientific content but I would myself not immediately advise LaTeX for your purposes.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by WriteF »

absque fenestris wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:01 pm No idea about LaTeX, but you could definitely use Scribus for a large book project.
Sorry I should have specified a bit more. I actually started doing that, but actual layout and maybe even illustrations in the final version will be done by someone else. I stopped using it since I received information from the publishing industry it would seem they prefer to handle all that themselves.

Also. It would take forever if I did. Not to mention the problems I had with images disappearing. My guess is that it didn't include the images in the file and that moving or removing (not that I remember doing that) on my system messed it up because of that. Just a guess :?. I will let whoever pieces it together use whatever they want. I just want a two rough PDFs: one with and one without the images. I will hand over the illustrations separately. Scribus is far to precise and complicated and it would waste months needlessly.
rene wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:07 pm The more creative you get the greater a pain in the butt LaTeX becomes so if you are talking about a book with creatively placed illustrations with flowing text around them or some such I'd quickly feel that a standard WYSIWYG word processor is going to be a better match.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by Petermint »

What do the publishers accept?

They change the layout based on the book format they choose. Your book might be reprinted in different formats. No matter what you submit, they will probably import it into a different format.

One book printer told me he could only accept a document in a specific Apple format because "their whole system was Apple". In fact their print system contained a big NT server running a program to convert the weird Apple file to an industry standard format I was trying to supply direct. The next update to that print system replaced NT with Unix and ran the same software I used on Linux.

Manuskipt is an example of free open book writing software that can produce more than one output format. Some of those applications are focused on ebooks or for online viewing. You can start at the other end, the publisher, and discuss the input they want then work back to compatible applications.

For my last printed book, the publishers wanted the full images and examples included as separate files so they could add them direct instead of inflicting horrible compression from PDF or anything else.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by avb12 »

LYX is a different way to work with LaTex.

"LyX is a document processor that encourages an approach to writing based on the structure of your documents (WYSIWYM) and not simply their appearance (WYSIWYG)"

Yes, "scientific" works, mathematical formulas, large texts (novels), but also illustrated books.

In LyX, you just type the text and it formats the text itself (in accordance with the LaTex rules and with the document type).

If the text is large and there are many illustrations, you just need to break the text into several parts and then attach them in the master document. It's the same with illustrations: if there are a lot of them and they are large, do not insert them into the text, but attach them, so they will be in a separate folder and will appear in the final version only when compiling the master PDF document (Yes, it will be voluminous, but each part will have a reasonable size).
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by Brian_90Web »

I think this is a very good idea. And it might be worth a try.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by SimonPeter »

I have been using Lyx for my assignments for a long time.
I think it is very good as we can type in a GUI (WYSIWYG), and not LaTex code (though I learnt a bit of it in the process)
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by AZgl1800 »

SimonPeter wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:51 pm I have been using Lyx for my assignments for a long time.
I think it is very good as we can type in a GUI (WYSIWYG), and not LaTex code (though I learnt a bit of it in the process)
I just looked up Lyx and can't find the install file

https://www.lyx.org/Download


https://launchpad.net/~lyx-devel/+archi ... /+packages

the PPAs were easy to get, but not the actual program.

for me, Bionic LM 19.3 Cinnamon.....

I need something like this, because I am always making documents with a huge amount of images in them, and it pisses me off when things move from where I put them.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by SimonPeter »

@
AZgl1500 wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:46 pm
SimonPeter wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:51 pm I have been using Lyx for my assignments for a long time.
I think it is very good as we can type in a GUI (WYSIWYG), and not LaTex code (though I learnt a bit of it in the process)
I just looked up Lyx and can't find the install file

https://www.lyx.org/Download


https://launchpad.net/~lyx-devel/+archi ... /+packages

the PPAs were easy to get, but not the actual program.

for me, Bionic LM 19.3 Cinnamon.....

I need something like this, because I am always making documents with a huge amount of images in them, and it pisses me off when things move from where I put them.
When installing software, please search it in the Software Manager before trying anything else.
Almost all software there are verified by the Linux Mint (and Ubuntu) teams and they are much more trustworthy than PPAs, .deb files, .AppImage files etc., from other sources.

In the Windows world, we go to a random website (or email attachment etc.,), download .exe files (or other executables) and run them (mostly granting admin powers too). This poses a BIG risk to our safety and security, and we may end up infected with viruses, malware, unwanted bloat software etc.,

But, in the Linux world, almost all open-source software (software that we ourselves can read and verify) we need are in the software stores maintained by our distribution packagers. This is a MUCH more safe way to get software, as they are cryptographically signed (and even binary reproducible for a lot of debian packages)

I think it is available in the Software Manager.

If you face issues, run in a terminal :
sudo apt update && sudo apt install lyx
(followed by Enter and your password)
This is just a way of accessing the software manager from the terminal.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by AZgl1800 »

yup,
should have looked in Software Manager first, but I went straight to Synaptic, and there it is.

makes me feel a lot better knowing it has been scraped clean of bugs. :P
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by freshminted »

AZgl1500 wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:17 pm makes me feel a lot better knowing it has been scraped clean of bugs. :P
Oh c'mon. Not even TeX has been entirely scraped free of bugs. Although I gather it's been a long time anyone's claimed a prize https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth_reward_check
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by AZgl1800 »

freshminted wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:47 pm
AZgl1500 wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:17 pm makes me feel a lot better knowing it has been scraped clean of bugs. :P
Oh c'mon. Not even TeX has been entirely scraped free of bugs. Although I gather it's been a long time anyone's claimed a prize https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth_reward_check
:lol: :lol: :lol: uh oh, spoke too soon.

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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by Dark Owl »

Just my tuppence worth:

I don't understand where you're going with this. There are only two options in the publishing world: camera-ready artwork (eg a PDF) or raw text. In the first case, you are the publisher. You prepare the layout exactly as it is to be printed. Unless it's very simple, you will need a heavyweight DTP package (I have not played with Scribus; the industry tends to use Adobe). Software houses do not usually support Linux, because it's not seen as a source of revenue.

The second option, when you are not going to be responsible for the page layout, is that the publisher is responsible. Whatever you send them, it will be stripped of formatting and have the house styles and layouts applied, using whatever DTP they use. There is no point going to any trouble over formatting it yourself.

Word-processing is for documents, DTP is for publications. DTP can handle complex magazine designs where there are fly-outs or text doesn't flow linearly. Using a pro grade DTP is a whole new skill set. M$ confused the market somewhat by including some DTP-ish capability within Word, but don't kid yourself that Word can do DTP.

FWIW: I have produced camera-ready artwork using OpenOffice Writer (in Windows) and various graphics programs for illustrations, including registration marks and bleed, but the design was fairly simple. Knowledge of the final production process is vital.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by AZgl1800 »

Where i am going with this, is my own documents, for my own use.

I wish to create mini-manuals / tutorials for friends, and I do NOT want the damn formatting to change.
when I print it out, I want it just like it is on the screen.

and I do not like Adobe, and will NOT pay for Adobe.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by rossdv8 »

One of the best tools in the business for that sort of thing is a program called Scribus. It is a lot like Express Publisher, which was a WYSIWYG Desktop Publishing program for MS Dos that we used before Microsoft thought of MS Publisher. Express Publisher was also released for Windows and was considerably better for Than MS Publisher for quite a while.

Scribus has a lot of the same advantages that made Express a wonderful tool.
One of the things Scribus can do, is open and allow a certain amount of editing of PDF files created by Adobe and other software. Jobs like removing and replacing or simply moving and resizing images and text frames.

While Scribus generally won't allow editing the text in text frames of imported PDF documents, it will allow you to ungroup and replace them.

However, that is NOT what you asked about.

When we used Mac for all our editing in the 80s and early 90s, we used Postscript. PS and EPS have since been replaced by PDF and that is still pretty well a default for Publishers.

If you produce your documents, even several hundred pages, using Scribus, and save them , but also export them as pdf files, you should have the advantage that your publishing house will be happy with them, because they can edit a pdf (we also have programs in Linux that easily edit the TEXT inside pdf files).

Some publishers like to strip images out of a manuscript, and have you supply high quality images in a separate disk.
It is sometimes a good idea to send them a pdf of the complete manuscript with the images where you want them, plus a pdf of text only and a disk of high quality artwork separately.

They will usually tell you what they prefer.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by Dark Owl »

AZgl1500 wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:09 am Where i am going with this, is my own documents, for my own use.

I wish to create mini-manuals / tutorials for friends, and I do NOT want the damn formatting to change.
when I print it out, I want it just like it is on the screen.
That's a completely different matter. If you're using something like LibreOffice Writer and print it (using LibreOffice Writer's print menu) from the same computer you're originating it, it *should* print the same as it appears on the screen. There's something wrong if it doesn't. I thought you were preparing content to be printed elsewhere.

You could also try outputting to PDF and then printing the resulting PDF file.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by SimonPeter »

SimonPeter wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:51 pm I have been using Lyx for my assignments for a long time.
I think it is very good as we can type in a GUI (WYSIWYG), and not LaTex code (though I learnt a bit of it in the process)
I am learning advanced math as part of a University course, and they prefer LaTex. That is why I use Lyx.

I don't think it is a good idea to write entire books with LaTex (that may be OK for some utterly math-filled things).

I use LibreOffice Writer for writing large documents like research papers, articles, whitepapers (especially those involving computer science) etc.,

I use LibreOffice Impress for my presentations (I do that often), small posters (I make posters very rarely) and that kind of stuff.

I use LibreOffice Draw to edit PDFs (I haven't used Scribus, but I plan to do so in the near future)

BTW: What a relief (especially editing PDFs) -- In my Windows days (which I really regret about) I had to buy/subscribe to a lot of malware and end up infected with viruses, trojans, spam etc., and even got my email, browser homepage and search engine hacked by those malware.

I also hate the software (frankly speaking, in my opinion , malware) that Ad0be, M$ etc., produce.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by absque fenestris »

AZgl1500 wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:09 am ...
and I do not like Adobe, and will NOT pay for Adobe.
by SimonPeter » Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:51 pm
I also hate the software (frankly speaking, in my opinion , malware) that Ad0be, M$ etc., produce.
I realize that such blanket statements always make me uncomfortable. Adobe's business policy is one thing, the other fact is that there is no really full-fledged open source replacement available for InDesign, Photoshop and Illustrator.
At the latest when it comes to the print transfer for an offset print job. Are all CMYK settings correct? No unintended spot colors supplied? No RGB leftovers? etc. pp ad infinitum.
With quite a lot of internet research, corresponding tutorials and with a print store that participates in the open source experiment, it can be done - only - the effort compared to the Adobe products is enormous.

Nevertheless: Scribus delivers good results. The thread opener could, for example, create a prototype of his book project including illustrations and print it on his own printer - there the CMYK trap would be avoided and at least a prototype copy would be at hand.

The real difficulty is to find a competent printer who is firstly familiar with open source software and secondly also willing to share his experience, with very clear instructions on how to prepare a printable CMYK-PDF under Linux.
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Re: Latex for writing books

Post by AZgl1800 »

I installed Scribus to look at it, and got lost before I even got started. :( :(
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